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More background information needed

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I read where the Mommins are based on Finnish folk tales, but there's no mention of that here - is that false? Also, what was the critic reception for the books, both in their home country and the rest of the world? How and when did they travel from Scandinavian countries? What languages have the books been translated into? Spill all the background beans! Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 02:12, 26 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hippos?

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I would just like to say that Moomins are NOT in any way related to hippos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.137.144 (talk) 00:26, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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An art of cooperation

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If someone does not accept my edit, s/he is able to correct it. A removal of a reference is a radical action. Xx236 (talk) 11:31, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The misrepresentation of a source is rather a serious matter, though. In this edit, the following text was added: "The author was influenced by the Winter War, she wasn't able to create pictures, so she started to write." This is supported by the following translated quote by the author, from the source: "It was the winter of war, in 1939. [My] work stood still; it felt completely pointless to try to create pictures. Perhaps it was understandable that I suddenly felt an urge to write down something that was to begin with 'Once upon a time'."[1] So it is not quite true that she "wasn't able to create pictures", nor is that claim factually correct in the context of the Moomins - Jansson wrote and illustrated the earliest Moomin book, The Moomins and the Great Flood, in 1945, six years after the Winter War. She also did not "start to write" in 1945, she had already had short stories published in the 1930s. That Jansson, like most Finns, was influenced by the Winter War and the entirety of WWII (and quite seriously influenced, too) is not in question, and it is well documented that the first two Moomin books show this. I agree that it is relevant information to include in the article. --bonadea contributions talk 13:09, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You refuse to accept

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/tove-janssons-moominland-what-was-the-inspiration-for-finlands-most-famous-family-9883098.html

BBC has a different story, we have 1:1. Xx236 (talk) 06:53, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/dec/07/moomins-great-flood-tove-jansson-review Xx236 (talk) 10:04, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I trust sources based on the original material in Swedish over sources translated and interpreted into another language, by journalists who are presumably not literary scholars (like Jansson's biographers are).
Copying a section of my own post to my talk page:
[...] Tove started using the proto-Moomin figure in illustrations for Garm in 1943 (it did not exist prior to that), and she first mentioned that she "wanted to write about the back story of the Moomin figure" (my loose translation) in a letter to her brother Per Olov in 1944. That was, incidentally, a year after her first solo exhibition. As it is an undeniable fact that Småtrollen was published in 1945, and that it was the first book about the Moomins, it is anybody's guess what "kom till under vinterkriget" is supposed to mean. My guess is that the editor at finland.se was careless with their choice of words, and used "vinterkriget" (the Winter War) where they meant "andra världskriget" (World War 2). Or perhaps they were speculating about whether Tove may have already been thinking about the Moomins in 1939-40, but that would be a far-fetched speculation given that she did not mention them for four years. I am not going to indulge in speculations about speculations, not for a Wikipedia article in any case :-) My main source for [the previous statements] is Boel Westin's biography Tove Jansson: Ord, bild, liv (Albert Bonniers förlag 2007). I have also consulted Brev från Tove Jansson, ed. by Boel Westin and Helen Svensson (Nordstedts förlag 2014). --bonadea contributions talk 11:00, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand Suomi, but 1939-1940 suggests that Independent is right Ensimmäisen muumikirjansa Småtrollen och den stora översvämningen (suom. Muumit ja suuri tuhotulva) Jansson kirjoitti talvisodan aikana, vuosina 1939–1940. Xx236

It's probably based on Jansson, Tove: Muumit ja suuri tuhotulva, s. 5. WSOY, 1991. Speculations? Xx236 (talk) 09:54, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, we can speculate on what is based on what (and where is the Finnish quote from?), but we know when Jansson started using the "Snork" image (the ancestor of the Moomin figure), and we know when Småtrollen was published. --bonadea contributions talk 11:00, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The Finnish quote comes from fi:Muumi. Xx236 (talk) 11:05, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. Well, a Wikipedia article is never a reliable source so it couldn't have been used as confirmation anyway. But that was evidently taken from the below-mentioned foreword to the book. --bonadea contributions talk 07:20, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Finally 1939-1940 skrev hon sin första version av... https://www.moomin.com/sv/blog/introduktion-till-mumin-berattelserna-smatrollen-och-den-stora-oversvamningen-1945/

Xx236 (talk) 07:11, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And they (the anonymous blog writer at moomin.com) provide no source for this, while we have several reliable sources saying that she did not in fact write it until several years later. But, you know, that's irrelevant - there is no statement in the Wikipedia article saying when Småtrollen was first conceived, ony that it was influenced by war. That is supported by all the sources. So what's the problem here? Maybe something on the lines of "Some sources suggest that Småtrollen was first conceived during the Winter War" could be added, but we can definitely not claim that it was the case, in the face of evidence to the contrary. Don't forget that the Finnish people lived with the hell that is war for several years, and Tove Jansson was driven into depression not only by the Winter War. Some literary critics have apparently claimed that it was the Continuation War that was the direct inspiration, with Finnish men being absent from their families for a very long time, but again, I don't think that's necessarily "true". Unfortunately I don't have access to Karjalainen's biography at home so I can't check what she wrote - I understand that she has had access to different source material from Westin. However, this presentation of the biography by Karjalainen states that "Mumindalen med dess invånare föddes under tiden för andra världskriget" ("Moomin Valley and its inhabitants were born during the time of World War 2"). --bonadea contributions talk 11:00, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
http://www.finland.se/public/default.aspx?contentid=297453&nodeid=36125&culture=sv-FI
http://www.blf.fi/artikel_print.php?id=1395

Xx236 (talk) 10:12, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you are right, she started to write about Moomins, not in general. Xx236 (talk) 07:15, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Please reject all sources, not a blog only. Xx236 (talk) 11:02, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
https://books.google.pl/books?id=SXkVKq86YIkC&pg=PA400&lpg=PA400&dq=moomin+winter+war&source=bl&ots=crRe_5hjq_&sig=q2IdaHrXXgF3UTzpQhGJ1S1KdLw&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbytib9IrUAhWlIpoKHe3YBpcQ6AEIbTAJ#v=onepage&q=moomin%20winter%20war&f=false
According to sources there are two versions and your decisions are based on WP:OR, so we may discuss which one is a majority opinion, but you are not allowed to remove the Winter War from the article. Xx236 (talk) 11:14, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Now I am confused. I have not removed anything from the article. Some incorrect information was added a couple of days ago, which I removed, but I assume that's not what you are referring to, since WP:BURDEN tells us that the person who adds the info in the first place needs to be able to support it, lest it be removed (and WP:BRD says nothing about "not being allowed to remove [stuff]")? Also, please explain what in my argument looks like original research? If I failed to be clear about the secondary sources I based my argument on (without actually interpreting those sources - again, I flatly refuse to indulge in interpretation or speculation), I'd be happy to provide more specifications. I reiterate what I posted above: Maybe something on the lines of "Some sources suggest that Småtrollen was first conceived during the Winter War" could be added, but we can definitely not claim that it was the case, in the face of evidence to the contrary. The Lidström Brock source you provided above would support that. --bonadea contributions talk 11:22, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I notice that you posted a note at Project Finland - it would perhaps be useful to inform participants in Project Sweden as well, if you feel it is called upon. --bonadea contributions talk 11:22, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You have removed the Independence refeence from the article.
The description of the beginning in 1939 comes from the foreword written by the author. Xx236 (talk) 11:50, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The The Independent reference was removed becaue it did not support any of the information in the article ;-) I used the BBC source which was already in the article, and which supported the information that the war years influenced the writing of the first books. As noted below, I hadn't read the foreword of Småtrollen, which, although a primary source, is relevant. --bonadea contributions talk 07:20, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[new contributor here] The foreword introduced to the book in the 1991 Finnish translation hasn't been quoted completely in the sources linked above. Reprint here and translation here. Jansson writes: "The half-written story was forgotten until 1945. Then a friend pointed out that it could become a children's book; just finish it and illustrate it, perhaps they will want it." By my read it's obvious that she started writing in 1939, influenced by the war, and didn't finish writing or illustrating the story until 1945. I don't think the names of wars from Military history of Finland during World War II are particularly relevant here, other than to say that life during that time was quite bleak indeed. For Moomin's history, the 1941 or 1943 published appearance, and the artwork before then, of the ghastly character from her mind shown here for instance would be interesting, if a reliable publication has linked them to Moomin. This 1943 mention from the Helsinki City Art Museum perhaps? 90.254.176.147 (talk) 13:14, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mean military history but impressions of the author, situation inside Finland - terrorized by the Red Army 1939-40. The Continuation War was static and finished in 1944, so Finland wasn't at war in 1945, which 1939-1945 may suggest. Xx236 (talk) 06:21, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
90.254.176.147 - thanks! I never even checked my copy of Småtrollen (as an irrelevant aside, I assume that she may have written the Finnish foreword herself, even though she did not do the Finnish translations? The Swedish-language version of the foreword says the same thing, anyway.) That was careless of me. I wonder why the biographers have not included that? No matter - it might merit a brief mention now that we have an actual source for it. I agree that the names of the wars are irrelevant, for the reasons you mention; the situation in Finland was, as you say, bleak throughout the war years. Speculation on which war experience influenced the writing of the early books the most would be original research in any case and we cannot add that - also because it would give undue weight to a discussion of the different wars. This is not an article about the situation in Finland in the 1940s. --bonadea contributions talk 07:20, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Speculation?
Not the early books, but the one half-written 1939-40.
I have quoted Jansson, Tove: Muumit ja suuri tuhotulva, s. 5. WSOY, 1991.
You have removed my edits, rejected my informations, what about sorry, I was wrong? Xx236 (talk) 09:26, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I find it difficult to decipher your posts sometimes, and so I missed where you had mentioned the source for the Finnish quote. Sorry about that. It would indeed be speculation to point out any part of the war experience as more influential on a book that was published after the war in Finland was over. ("The early books" includes Comet in Moominland which has also been pointed out as influenced by the war years.) --bonadea contributions talk 06:50, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 20 September 2017

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Cúchullain t/c 14:08, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Moomin → Moomins – The generic plural seems much more appropriate here (similar to biological taxa), as can be seen already from the introductory sentence. The singular really doesn't make any sense here. Cf. e. g. The Smurfs, Peanuts, Rugrats, Gummi Bears, Gremlins, Berenstain Bears, The Wild Thornberrys, Tweenies, Teletubbies, Ninja Turtles, Dinosaurs, Ghostbusters etc. etc. Tuchiel (talk) 17:05, 20 September 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 06:38, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Character name languages?

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Should we give the character names in multiple languages? English, Swedish, Finnish? re [4]

I think we have to give all three. This is the English language WP, so English is primary. The books are known as being authored in another language, but the names are translated and the originals are unfamiliar. Swedish was the authoring language for much of the Moomin writing. Finnish is now the language of their native country. Even with the issue of Finnish bilingualism, we can't remove Finnish from this. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:59, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why can't we? Simply asserting that we can't without explanation is not very helpful. The books were written in Swedish, which is clearly relevant. I don't see why the fact that Finnish is spoken in the country where they were written in any way gives Finnish more relevance to those books than any other language to which they have been translated. Should we give Irish translations of all works written in English in Ireland in the opening sentences of the leads on their articles? Should we give a Czech translation of the title of Kafka's The Trial in the lead of that article? If so then there must be thousands more similar cases where articles need to be changed, and if not then why should Finnish be given special consideration? I don't think it should. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 13:21, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Moomins are Finnish in every way: they are ubiquitous there and not merely by adoption. This is their homeland. Now, Finland is also multi-lingual. Swedish still has a great significance, and the Moomins are part of the Western coast of Finland, the Swedish-speaking part, not Karelia or the Saami lands. The Finnish names are indeed a translation, but they're a translation of such significance that it warrants inclusion here. The character names for these stories aren't simple: many of them changed over time. Some of those changes are only reflected in the later versions, which were produced in Finnish from the outset. Yes, we are not here to be a translation guide. But we are expected to be encyclopedically complete. A description of these characters, in English, is incomplete if it omits the Finnish versions.
As to other articles, then WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and that is not a strong reason to change a separate article. Inclusion should be on the basis of what's important within that article. As to Kafka, then how important was the Czech language to him? It wasn't even translated until after the war, long after it was established in English and French as a major novel. But for the Moomins, translation and publication in Finnish was at least overlapping, if not simultaneous. The 1950s comic strips were in English and Finnish before their Swedish publication, and these are where most of the characters with the clearly distincttypo names in Swedish originated. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:16, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Your mention of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS suggests that you have misunderstood me. I was not suggesting that the state of other articles was "a strong reason to change a separate article", nor even a weak one; I was simply asking whether you thought that other languages of a place where a work was written should generally be included, or whether this was a special case. You have now made it clear that the latter is what you have in mind, and you have given a clear explanation of your reasons for holding that view. However, I still don't agree. I don't know what you mean by "distant names", but whatever that may mean I don't understand why the fact that the comic strips were published in Finnish before Swedish is a reason for giving prominence to the Finnish translations of names of characters first published in Swedish language sources, such as the Groke. Nor do I see why the dates of publications of translations are relevant. However, much of what you say in favour of including Finnish names really consists of just asserting that in your opinion Finnish ought to be given special prominence, such as "a translation of such significance that it warrants inclusion here"; the question is why is the Finnish translation of such special significance?
Incidentally, I notice what appears to be a shift in your position. Before reading my post above you gave "Finnish is now the language of their native country" as justification for giving special status to the Finnish translations, but your response to that post does not give the same weight to the fact that Czech is now the language of Kafka's native country, but instead questions how much importance Czech had for him at the time. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 10:53, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is no good reason to either follow another article's style, or to avoid it. We should make a decision here, based on what's best for these articles. Although consistency within the Moomin articles would be useful.
By "special case" do you mean that the translations should thus be included, or excluded? Do you claim a special case here, or take the dogmatic position that there must be no special cases on WP. I'm certainly not trying to claim any special status, merely the general rule that relevantly encyclopedic content should be included. In the case of articles about a set of creatures adopted by Finland as quintessentially Finnish, and best known worldwide as being Finnish (try playing "Six famous Finns" in Japan, or even Belgium), that includes their Finnish names. We don't consider Czech for Kafka because the Czech language took no part in his writing (which is a contrast to the Moomins). We do give the French names for Tintin characters, but not any other languages, even German or Flemish, because those names have never had the same importance as the French versions to the work (those languages do in Belgian life otherwise). Dupont et Dupond aren't called that in the German translations (they're Schulze und Schultze) but you won't see that name used in Belgium in street signs, as we do for Muumipeikko. For Asterix, where the wordplay of the character names and their translations is paricularly evident, we find the article here listing almost all the variations, because the issue of how to translate them becomes one of creative wordplay, thus encyclopedic to document. Even for Harry Potter we've had to describe the inane translation into Vulgarian, and explain its back translation.
The status of the Moomins as being so Finnish (even if first written in Swedish) justifies giving their Finnish names. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:42, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am again under the impression that you are failing to understand some of the things I am saying. My use of the words "special case" was in the context of considering whether you thought that giving the names in a local language other than that in which a work was written was a general principle, or whether there were specific reasons why that applies in this particular instance. You have given a perfectly clear answer to that: you think there are particular reasons why it applies in this instance. I am also puzzled as to why, after you have repeatedly said that OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a criterion, you bring up Tintin, Asterix, and Harry Potter. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 20:54, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to interject here, but are we talking about the significance the Moomins have for the different countries/languages or the significance that the countries/languages hold for The Moomins (i.e. the topic of this article)? I would say that the latter makes a lot more sense to me here than the former.
I also find that it's kind of difficult to measure degrees of significance here. Obviously this is a pretty primitive way to judge the significance of other countries to the Moomins, but simply counting the number of times the countries/languages are mentioned in the article in its current state may give us something to work with. Making such a count, it becomes quite clear that mentions about English, Finnish, Japanese, and Swedish are much more common than mentions of the other related countries/languages (Russian, Austrian/German, Polish, Dutch, French, Armenian, etc.). If significance is the determinative factor then I think it would make sense to include English, Finnish, Japanese, and Swedish. Otherwise I'd just stick with English and Swedish. -Thibbs (talk) 23:09, 9 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is the English language WP. So why give the names in Swedish, or any non-English language? We do this because that name has become such a significant part of the overall character that our coverage is incomplete without it. For Moomins, which have become adopted as part of the Finnish national identity, part of that involves giving the Finnish names too. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:30, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think the Swedish title was added because Swedish is the original language as given by the author herself–something highly relevant to defining the topic–rather than because of its impact on Swedish national identity which is probably more relevant to Culture of Sweden or Swedish literature. I don't think it makes any sense to remove the Swedish title when it can't even be properly called a translation. It is the original language. -Thibbs (talk) 03:47, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Then don't remove the Swedish version. But no-one is looking to do that. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:15, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The series called New Stories of Moomin Troll

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I read an unlisted Moomin book 15 minutes ago.

It's in Russian. Translated back into English, the title is Moomin Troll and the Sea Orchestra, the ship in the story. Dated 2020.

The voyagers meet a sea serpent named Edward.

Sophia Jansson provides the introduction.

It was published by Willie Winkie in Moscow.

142.205.202.71 (talk) 22:47, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The authors, transliterated from Russian, are Aleks Kharidi, Sesiliya Devidson and Sesiliya Khekkilya. 142.205.202.71 (talk) 22:52, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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