Talk:Miniature Schnauzer

Miniature Schnauzer has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: September 6, 2013. (Reviewed version).

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Temperament

According to The Guardian^[1], Miniature Schnauzers have an easygoing temperment which makes them popular among families and children. They are highly trainable for their size and are very loyal dogs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaylinhoward (talk • contribs) 03:25, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I added some info on the Mini's temperment. The article was suggesting that these were easy-going and loyal dogs, so I added some more input about how they are not. --Arithmia 15:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, please stop deleting and modifying what I edited unless you can show me some proper explanation. I have breed these dogs for years, so I know what I am talking about. Also, this is an encyclopedia - it is not the place to write your own opinions for this dog. --Arithmia 01:51, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Pets: Cats and dogs: Miniature schnauzer." Guardian [London, England], 20 Mar. 2010, p. 35. Academic OneFile, http://link.galegroup.com/apps/doc/A221771906/AONE?u=mcc_pv&sid=AONE&xid=8d0eaf0b. Accessed 12 Feb. 2019.

History/ Miniature Schnauzer

According to Anne Eskridge Paramore's Book, The Complete Miniature Schnauzer, the first GERMAN stud book for the Miniature Schnauzers registered 8 bitches, 3 of which were yellow (what we now call white ). There were 6 male Miniature Schnauzer registered in the first German stud book, 4 of them were yellow. There was only one S&P male and one S&P female registered. Therefore the white or yellow color of miniature schnauzers originally registered was the predominate original color of the Miniature Schnauzers. The Germans were not as concerned with color as they were with establishing correct structure and type. They were actually trying to breed for the color BLACK. The yellow or white color came through by breeding the standard Schnauzers to black miniature poodles that carried the "e,e" genes that suppress the black color in the hair coat only. So when both parents passed the "e" gene to their offspring the "white color was produced in the puppy that carried the "e,e" gene. After speaking directly with members and judges from the German Pinscher Schnauzer Klub this fact was verified. There was one kennel in Europe, named Abbagamba, who bred Parti (spotted) Miniature Schnauzers for a few years in the early development of the breed, but the PSK decided not to register any more spotted Miniatures so they stopped breeding them.

Merge from White Schnauzer

In a recently closed deletion discussion has been suggested that White Schnauzer could be merged here. Please read Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/White Schnauzer and carry on here. Thanks - Nabla (talk) 18:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved this from Talk:Schnauzer to here, as the article describes the White Schnauzer as a variety of miniature Schnauzer. Zetawoof_(ζ) 14:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A white miniature schnauzer is not considered to be an acceptable specimen of the breed, so it should not be included in the same article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.72.28 (talk) 21:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This person's objection could be handled with a chart showing which colours are acceptable under which major kennel clubs.

There is some new research about dog coat colour, indicating that the genetics of dog coat colour are not the same as those of other mammals; the section on the coat colour in the White Schnauzer article may be wrong, and at any rate should be in a general coat colour genetics article.

Merge. The White Schnauzer article cites the Fédération Cynologique Internationale standard, which lists it as a colour variation of the Zwergschnauzer (Miniature Schnauzer) breed, not a separate breed. Although there is always some internet based dog registry that will register dogs as any breed you want (invent your own!) the white coloured Schnauzer is not listed by any major kennel club as a separate breed. It CAN be shown internationally as a Miniature Schnauzer, even though some national clubs do not recognize the colour or disallow it. It's a Miniature Schnauzer.

"New" ("rare") breeds are being continually created out of established breeds, and, although I'm not happy about the idea of further narrowing an already narrow gene pool, it does happen often (see the Biewer for an interesting example.) However, breed creation has to be more than a few people thinking their off coloured dog is "cute", more than just some breeder's puppy marketing idea. An association needs to be formed, records kept, reputable kennel clubs applied to. There does not seem to be any credible breed club at this time for white coloured Schnauzers as a separate breed. And it is silly, since they ARE already recognized internationally as a colour variant of the Miniature Schnauzer. --Hafwyn (talk) 17:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that until it is recognised as an "acceptable" variant by all major kennel clubs, it should remain a separate article. If they were to be merged, I think that it would have to be made very clear that they are not an acceptible variant for specific reasons. The amount of information in the White schnauzer article is disproportionate to the amount in the Miniature schnauzer article. I think that a large amount would have to be scrapped if they were merged, as it is irrelevant to the Miniature schnauzer article (particularly the coat colour inheritance section). This page makes it very clear that White schnauzers are an extremely rare variant of the normal Miniature schnauzer, and may not be wholly Schnauzer. It's much more informative as it is, really.125.237.82.171 (talk) 11:05, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Even in the United States there are international champion (Fédération Cynologique Internationale) miniature schnauzers that are white. Being white does not keep a miniature schnauzer from being a good pet and performance dog (unless it is linked to deafness, as is true in some other breeds, but not all). So why try to make it into a separate breed? White schnauzers ARE recognised for international showing. This is just a colour variant; the White Schnauzer Wikipedia article may be advertising for white coloured schnauzers as an extra-value "rare breed" for some breeder(s). If the problem is that someone wants to show a restricted colour in conformation, they should be taking that up with their breed club and national kennel club.

Also, if 125.237.82.171 believes that the white-coloured schnauzer is a mixed breed dog, not a dog of a specific breed, that would be another reason not to have a separate breed article about it.--Hafwyn (talk)

Comment I've repaired the merge tag. Happy editing. Sebastian scha. (talk) 20:44, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge.I feel it should be merged as the white schanuzer is indead a color variant of Miniature Schnauzer.. and just because it is not accepted in the show ring doesn't mean it isn't the breed it is.. Adding a small section to the Miniature Schnauzer article discussing the other colors found in the breed should be included (in my opinion) because they also come in other colors as well....... I white Miniature Schanuzer can still be registered with AKC as a Miniature Schnauzer.. They just can't be shown. Most people purchase these dogs as pets and not as show dogs anyway. --Ltshears (talk) 22:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

why hasn't this been merged yet? just wonding. --Ltshears (talk) 00:39, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Colors

Miniature schnauzers also come in chocolate and parti-colors such as black and white.. although those colors are not accepted by akc, they do exist and are owned by many people.... Maybe that could somehow be added to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ltshears (talk • contribs) 19:55, 11 November 2008

If you can find a published source for this material (yes, I know, silly but necessary per Wiki policy), then it should certainly be added. Also, I'm concerned about the image you just added...where was permission given for this image to be used? Merely saying that someone gave permission is not good enough...evidence must be provided, such as the person sending an email to Commons implicitly giving permission for a photo or group of photos to be made available under a free license. See http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Email_templates for what the photo owner can send. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 01:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No problem i have sent an email to the owner of the photos and asked her to send in the release form.. although i uploaded this photo in 2006.. --Ltshears (talk) 18:45, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not Sure if any of these links are useful to use but these explain the colors in miniature schnauzers. All colors of miniatures schnauzers can be registered by AKC, they just can't be shown if they are not the 3 accepted colors for the show ring.

http://www.schnauzerlover.com/articles/schnauzer_colors.html

http://miniatureschnauzers.homestead.com/Color.html

http://www.bettsenterprises.com/Schnauzers/colors.htm

http://amsc.us/faq.html

http://www.abiquadogs.com/schnauzers/zamsc.htm - under color disqualifications

http://www.royal-schnauzers.com/puppy_colors.htm

--Ltshears (talk) 19:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I'm meddling here, but the read of the article as far as the color made it sound as though white is generally accepted, which I have never known to be the case (not only by the AKC but by most local clubs I'm aware of in the US - I live in Chicago, the Chicago Miniature Schnauzer Club, under "Our Breed" goes so far as to include a link to an article on the American Miniature Schnauzer Club's website titled "Why Not White?" (http://amsc.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=47)). I removed "white" from the listing of colors in the box, I believe black, salt-and-pepper, and black-and-silver are the three generally accepted colors, and as long as white is in controversy, to list it in the box as accepted makes it sound like the page comes down on one side of the debate. It would be one thing to include white with an asterisk, but another to list it along with the other colors, which are not in dispute. The same is the case within the article, I removed a "as some claim" that served no purpose other than to make one side seem more credible than the other. Finally, I removed the PSK from the list of international clubs that recognize the white breed - the PSK international standards only recognize pure black and salt-and-pepper (http://www.ispu-org.com/Standards/schnauzer_182e.pdf) - the description of salt-and-pepper seems to include silver-and-black, but there is no mention of pure white.

Happy holidays to all, Argentina Dan (talk) 01:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Merger accomplished. Citations Needed

Okay, so all talk, but no one did it. I'm a schnauzer fancier myself, but I don't care what color they are. I just like them. So the Schnauzer and I sat at the desk and merged the two articles, as had been suggested on the "projects to do" page. I'm going to mark the old White Schnauzer article for speedy deletion. Someone else who knows dogs will have to provide citations.--Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merged articles can't be deleted, as doing so would destroy the authorship information in the history. I've converted the other article to a redirect instead. Zetawoof_(ζ) 22:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ah, okay. thanks for leting me know. --Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:43, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the article work, Auntieruth. Been meaning to do this for ages, but kept getting sidetracked. Hopefully your Schnauzer was able to lend some "inside" help ;) — Huntster (t • @ • c) 23:28, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

he can be quite bossy, and the papillon had to help some as well. Hope the merge works, and the controversy goes away. Eventually someone with authority will take down the other.--Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:43, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Citations

This article still needs citations from reliable sources. --Auntieruth55 (talk) 14:12, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Picture Wars

Please stop. Yes, the puppy picture is not as "quality" as the other, but they are now BOTH in the main article. I removed some of the multiple salt and peppers from the gallery. How many do we need. Yes, I know they are all adorable. Enough is enough. If you really want to contribute to the article, find some citations that are needed to back up the assertions.Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Possible health addition

I have heard that this breed can experience dental issues, due to being a smaller breed. I don't have any citations, but I felt it was worth mentioning, in case someone had a source and wanted to include it in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.54.115.185 (talk) 17:16, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Miniature Schnauzer/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Cwmhiraeth (talk · contribs) 09:17, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I propose to take on this review. I had a miniature schnauzer some years ago but it did not get on well with my free-range hens! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:17, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article in general is well-written. There are a few points I noticed about the prose:

"Almost every living Miniature Schnauzer in America can trace their lineage back to Dorem Display" - this should be "its lineage".

Done Changed.

"Miniature Schnauzers have a squarely proportioned build" - I'm not sure precisely what this means. Could you phrase it differently?

Done Changed to "Miniature Schnauzers have a very square-shaped build" but I'm not sure that's clear enough, either.

"They have a double coat. The exterior fur is wiry and the undercoat is soft." - Perhaps these two short sentences could be combined.

Done Combined.

"The coat is kept short on the body, but the hair on ears, legs, and belly are retained." - This requires some explanation as (some of the) hairs on the body are retained also. It also needs a reference as the one at the end of the paragraph refers only to the colours.

Done Rephrased to be clearer and adding a ref to the the American Miniature Schnauzer Club.

"Miniature Schnauzers are often described as non-shedding dogs, and while this is not entirely true, their shedding is minimal and generally unnoticeable." - Maybe you could substitute "moulting" for one of the words "shedding".

Done

"... can be treated with a variety of protocols" - I wouldn't say you could treat a medical condition with a protocol. You could say "... according to a number of protocols".

Done Changed to methods.

You need a reference for #2 of "Health and grooming".

Done I oouldn't confirm hip dysplasia so i pulled it and combined the couple sentences on vWD with the paragraph above.

"... on their undercarriage..." - "their" is plural while you have been talking about the dog's coat in the singular.

Done Changed.

"... minis, Standards, or Giants" - Minis should have a capital M for consistency.

Done Changed.

Finally, the statement "The breed remains one of the most popular world wide, primarily for its temperament and relatively small size. As of 2008 it is the 11th most popular breed in the U.S." appears in the lead but this is not mentioned in the body of the article.

Done Added to the end of the history section.

That's all I can see for the moment. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

GA Criteria

1a The article is well written.
1b The article conforms with the MOS guidelines and the suggestions I made have been implemented.
2a&b The article is well referenced and has inline citations for all contentious statements.
2c There is no original research as far as I can see.
3a&b The coverage is broad enough and the article does not include irrelevant material.
4 The article is neutral
5 The article was worked on intensively by the nominator in July 2013 and is stable.
6 The images are appropriately licensed.
7 The images are relevant to the topic and have suitable captions.
Overall assessment - Pass. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Removed gallery

Why is everybody so against galleries? If you never saw a Miniature Schnauzer , seeing only this article would leave you with a rather poor idea how the breed looks like. People do not go on loking on commons especially if not editing Wikipedia a lot. And no, you are not illustrating all varieties of colours. The use of a gallery section may be appropriate in some Wikipedia articles if a collection of images can illustrate aspects of a subject that cannot be easily or adequately described by text or individual images. The images in the gallery collectively must have encyclopedic value and add to the reader's understanding of the subject. Just as we seek to ensure that the prose of an article is clear, precise and engaging, galleries should be similarly well-crafted. See 1750–75 in Western fashion for an example of a good use of galleries. This part is from image use policy, about galleries. Hafspajen (talk) 09:20, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Change Life Span from 12-14 to 12-16 years

My experience with Miniature Schnauzers is that the life span is frequently longer than the 12-14 years given in the summary box. I propose the "Life Span" in the summary box be changed to 12-16 years. If there are no objections I will change it in a week.

For example the UK dog survey mentioned in the article found about 20% of schnauzers lived past 15 years. (http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/16618/miniature%20schnauzer.pdf)

12-16 years also seems to be more in line with comments by breeders, for example http://www.ilovemyminischnauzer.com/health-contract-and-more-about-breed-health.html and http://www.petsonline.com.au/miniatureschnauzerpuppiesforsale.asp.

The existing 12-14 life expectation in the article is referenced to the HillsPet.com site. HillsPets do not state their source of this range. Aussiejohn (talk) 04:15, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

While most kennel clubs do not provide lifespan information, UK Kennel Club simply says more than 10 years, while the New Zealand Kennel Club specifically states 12-14 years. None of your sources provide any kind of reliable data, rather indicating breed outliers rather than averages. — Huntster (t @ c) 05:15, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would view the UK dog survey as a reliable source, mainly because it is the only large survey of Miniature Schnauzer life span that I can find. Figure 1 of the report shows a significant number of Schnauzers were aged 15 and over at time of death. The other sources I gave are schnauzer breeders. I agree there does seems to be a difference in expected Schnauzer life spans between different web sites. Do you know what was the source of the New Zealand Kennel Club figure (12-14 years), or of any other possible references of Schnauzer life expectation based on real world data? Also the life span is a range, not an average. Thanks Aussiejohn (talk) 06:38, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The figure also showed a similarly significant number that died before 8 or 9 years old. Life span is supposed to reflect an average, whether stated as a single figure or a range. When only half the dogs live to 12 or more and only 1 in 5 live to 15 or more, you can't claim an average of 12-16. Even 12-14 is inflated. If you want to present it as a range, 8-15 or 8-16 would be more accurate.--Dodo bird (talk) 07:37, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. But we cannot use original research, so we use the figures from profession sites, as has already been done. — Huntster (t @ c) 07:49, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. I will leave as is. Aussiejohn (talk) 03:47, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Miniature Schnauzer/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I added some popular (but not completely recognized) colors.

Last edited at 13:13, 9 September 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 00:08, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

[1] "Pets: Cats and dogs: Miniature schnauzer." Guardian [London, England], 20 Mar. 2010, p. 35. Academic OneFile, http://link.galegroup.com/apps/doc/A221771906/AONE?u=mcc_pv&sid=AONE&xid=8d0eaf0b. Accessed 12 Feb. 2019.

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