Talk:Mini-grid

Old and new versions

Hi everyone. It's great to see the new content added today by Christopher Greacen.[1] However, some well-sourced content that had been added by Skcatalina in 2018 was removed, and I'm not sure why. Christopher, did you intentionally remove the sections on Motivation for mini-grid development, Rural electrification, Smart Mini-grid, Benefits, Risks, and Economics, or was the removal an accident? Also I noticed that the UNFCCC's definition of mini-grid was also removed without explanation.

I've reverted to the previous version of the article as that's our standard practice when large passages of well-sourced content are removed without explanation. Christopher, would you mind re-doing your update as a series of smaller changes instead of all at once, which would let you use edit summaries to explain your changes as you go along? If you feel any content should be removed, could you please explain why on this Talk page or (at the very least) in your edit summary? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 05:20, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Also, if would be great if you could cite sources more densely, aiming for at least one citation per paragraph. World Bank, ESMAP and United Nations publications are generally excellent sources. In general, conference proceedings and industry associations are less reliable. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 15:10, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi Clayoquot. Thank you for your excellent custodianship of this page. I wanted to provide a bit of context to the new content added by Dr. Greacen. Chris is one of the lead authors of the World Bank's flagship handbook on mini grids, for which I served as the lead editor: Mini Grids for Half a Billion People: Market Outlook and Handbook for Decision Makers, available online here: https://documents.worldbank.org/en/publication/documents-reports/documentdetail/099635009232259510/p1751510dd4ab407e083a6098d1905fa94f. The handbook is the Bank's most comprehensive and authoritative publication on mini grids to date, and it pulls together the latest data, definitions, and concepts on mini grids (for energy access) from a wide set of authoritative sources, complemented by primary data, research, and analysis. Dr. Greacen's revisions to the mini-grid page are consistent with these most recent data, definition, and concepts. Perhaps as a next step, we could work to integrate some of the old material into the new content. With sincere thanks for your (many!) contributions, Clayoquot, I do hope we can update this mini-grid article to reflect the latest thinking on this critically important topic. ~ James Knuckles, Ph.D. 84.221.118.89 (talk) 16:54, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi Dr. Knuckles. Thanks for dropping by! I am delighted that Dr. Greacen is contributing to Wikipedia. I have no doubts about his expertise in this field. He (and you, if you wish) can absolutely update this mini-grid article to reflect the latest thinking on this critically important topic. There is nothing stopping him or you from doing that.

What I objected to is that Dr. Greacen deleted a large amount of good content that another person had written. I still do not understand why he did that. Wikipedia articles are written by building upon existing content so as to include information that multiple people have found.

If it makes things easier, I've copied Dr. Greacen's version here: Talk:Mini-grid/Sandbox. Would either of you be willing to integrate content from the sandbox to the actual article, while preserving the good content in the current version of the article? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 22:11, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Short description

Hi Clayoquot -- thank you for the coaching on Wikipedia etiquette. I appreciate the collaborative and community-centered approach of Wikipedia and I will proceed as suggested. Christopher Greacen (talk) 22:18, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

I'd like to discuss some reasons for changes, focusing for now just on the first paragraph of the Mini Grid entry.

The first paragraph of the text currently reads:

"A mini-grid is an off-grid electricity distribution network involving small-scale electricity generation. Often conflated with microgrids, a mini-grid is sometimes defined as having a power rating less than 11kW and as being disconnected from utility-scale grids. The United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) defines a mini-grid as "a small-scale power system with a total capacity not exceeding 15 MW which is not connected to a national or a regional grid."  Mini-grids are used as a cost-effective solution for electrifying rural communities where a grid connection is challenging in terms of transmission and cost for the end user population density."

The first sentence here references a 2016 Alliance for Energy article that explicitly focuses only on off-grid electricity. But mini grids can be either connected or disconnected, and so this definition is -- in this respect -- overly narrow. The need to change this reflects the evolution of the field to a certain extent -- mini grids were almost exclusively offgrid in 2016. In 2022 they remain mostly an off-grid solution, but not entirely.

The mention in the second sentence of microgrids is valuable - so it is important to keep a reference to microgrids. But more should be done to differentiate mini grids and microgrids -- as I did in my entry. The statement that mini grids have a power rating less than 11kW is unsupported by any citation and is not consistent with the next sentence that sets the upper scale at 15MW, over 1,000 times larger in capacity.

The third sentence originally misquoted the UNFCC, and I fixed that in this iteration (see edit summary) but the assertion that mini grids are less than 11 kW and less than 15 MW are a little confusing considering that 15 MW is over 1,000 times larger than 11 kW. And both are inconsistent with a World Bank analysis of 50,000 mini grids finding that 90% are between 10 kW and 1 MW in capacity.

The fourth sentence is fine and should stay.

Overall, the strong focus on capacity (11 kW, 15 MW) misses several other big dimensions of mini grids that readers should know upfront: 1) the fact that mini grids exist to supply local customers; 2) the ability to electrically isolate from the main grid; 3) the role of mini grids vis-a-vis other solutions like grid extension or solar home systems; 4) the distinction between mini grids and microgrids. Christopher Greacen (talk) 00:07, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, this all makes sense. Please go ahead with whatever updates you think need to be made. I'm very glad you came back! Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 04:24, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I made the changes described. I took the liberty of adding the "short description" subheading to this post to help keep track of where in the document changes are made and am thinking of doing the same with other sections of the article. Sound OK? Christopher Greacen (talk) 06:22, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

History

I changed the title of this section from "Motivation for mini-grid development" to "History" because it was primarily historical.

I removed sentence "Today, issues such as energy security, energy access, and depleting energy resources remain key issues worldwide" and its associated citation because this is better captured with reference to UN SDG goal #7 of "ensuring access to affordable, reliable, sustainable and modern energy for all by 2030" Christopher Greacen (talk) 06:43, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I removed sentence "Mini-grids are functional at small scale and as potential future connections to a larger grid, making this technology attractive for ensuring the reliability of future energy systems. In many areas, centralized power is not feasible due to relatively small dispersed loads in remote areas, but a mini-grid provides an attractive alternative with enhanced stability when compared to stand-alone systems" and I removed the accompanying citation "Nagpal, Kunal. "Smart Mini-Grids: Innovative solutions to combat energy shortfall". news.trust.org. Thomson Reuters Foundation. Retrieved 2018-10-26." The citation was a dead link anyway. The sentence expressed ideas already captured elsewhere in the article, and is also a potential source of confusion because the phrase "compared to stand-alone systems" suggests that mini grids are not stand-alone when, in fact, they are stand-alone. Christopher Greacen (talk) 06:42, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I removed the sentences "Furthermore, transmission remains an issue for geographically isolated areas, making off-grid alternatives necessary in certain situations. Considering the large distances transmission lines must cover to reach rural areas from centralized generation, up to 30% of power can be lost before reaching the destination, significantly decreasing the efficiency of the overall electrical system. As such, localized mini-grids with on-site generation provide a reasonable alternative." These ideas are already covered in the "short description" section. The sentence stating 30% power loss as written suggests that 30% of power is lost in transmission -- which is a bit misleading since the 30% almost certainly would include distribution. But it's hard to tell since the article the citation for this sentence is referring to (http://news.trust.org//item/20121025054000-rslkp/) can longer can be found. Christopher Greacen (talk) 06:54, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

One quick question for Clayoquot: should I keep on justifying every change sentence by sentence like this, or would it be OK to make changes with somewhat broader strokes (e.g. section by section), integrating material from Talk:Mini-grid/Sandbox#cite note-2 and trying to keep as much original material that remains relevant? Christopher Greacen (talk) 07:02, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

You could try making changes in broader strokes. Also it's not necessary to explain changes both in an edit summary and on the Talk page - you can choose one or the other. If I'm making an edit that I can explain an edit in a sentence or two, I'll usually just put that explanation in an edit summary and not mention it on the Talk page. If I'm making a change that I can't explain quickly, I'll sometimes write "See Talk in a few moments" in my edit summary and then explain my edit on the Talk page.

Most review at Wikipedia happens from volunteers who have the page on their Watchlist. So everyone who is reviewing changes to the article will see the edit summaries that you write.

Your changes are making a lot of sense. Thanks for the explanations and also for your efforts to keep the original material where it's still relevant. Cheers, Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:13, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! This is very helpful feedback. Christopher Greacen (talk) 17:41, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

References