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Deletion of sourced references

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With regard to the deletion of reference to Koplove being Jewish, with all due respect I think that the deletions are inappropriate. The sources referenced indicated that he is in fact Jewish. If there are sources to the contrary, they can be listed alongside the current ones. That would not be cause for deletion.

Furthermore, his ethnicity is notable.

Wiki policy calls for a sensitivity towards "notability." To determine what notability means here, one must go to Wikipedia:Notability (people), the notability criteria guideline for Wikipedia. That guideline states, inter alia, that "Notability on Wikipedia for people is based on the following criterion: The person has been a primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person. This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, magazine articles, books, scholarly papers, and television documentaries ...." Thus, where one is noted as being a Jew in multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person, such as newspaper articles, magazine articles, books, and the like, they meet the notability requirement. And, importantly, there are a number of Halls of Fame and lists and articles relating to Jewish athletes, and there is a major league baseball collection of Jewish Major Leaguer baseball cards. "Jewish Sports Legends," The International Jewish Sports Hall of Fame, Jews in Sports bios, National Jewish Sports Hall of Fame bios, The Baltimore Jewish Times runs articles on Jewish athletes. It is mentions such as these that demonstrate the importance of this classification ... which is what Wiki policy focuses on. --Epeefleche 18:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a particular objection to reverting my removal of the Jewish references in the article, but each time someone adds them back in, someone else comes along and either removes some of them or puts a note on the page that he's not Jewish. I read somewhere that he has a Jewish father and a Catholic mother and that he is Catholic. Over the past couple of months, a number of anonymous users claiming to be Koplove have either deleted the references or added comments to the text stating that he's not Jewish. For example, see the edits by User:12.155.114.132 on 11 June 2007. I don't know what WP policy is in a situation like this, but short of trying to contact Koplove directly and interviewing him, I don't know how we can resolve this. --Sanfranman59 05:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One way to properly address it, short of your suggestion which would be fine as well, is to put in properly sourced statements. If there are conflicting statements, they can exist side by side. That has been done in other bios. Then the reader can decide. What I do have a problem with is the deletion of the appropriately sourced statement that he is Jewish. I've moved the sources up from the links to the text, for clarification. If someone has a proper source that they would like to add that suggests that he is not Jewish, they should do so without deleting the present text I would suggest. BTW, under Reform Judaism one can have Jewish father and be Jewish (though it only follows the mother's side under Conservative and Orthodox Judaism). And yes, I noted as well that the deleters tended to be anonymous users. If it continues we may have to ask for protection of the page against revisions by anonymous users. IMHO. --Epeefleche 07:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikimedia Foundation has received a complaint about this article, through m:OTRS: according to the person who wrote, the subject of this article is Catholic, not Jewish. I note that our policy on biographies of living people says that biographies should not "trivia section"; that is, sections listing facts or purported facts that stray from the main subject of the article. This article is about a baseball player; his religion and his marriage are probably irrelevant. David.Monniaux 09:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And "the person who wrote" has what authority, exactly, for this statement that contradicts the given sources? Hopefully you're not relying upon The International Journal of Because I Said So. --Calton | Talk 15:06, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The person who wrote claims to be the subject. But that's besides the point anyway: the religion of a baseball player is irrelevant, unless that person specifically drew attention to it. David.Monniaux 15:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Unless there is some kind of news-worthy controversy over his religious affiliation then I see no reason to add "trivial" information to the article. Why not just leave it out entirely? ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 15:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So it's not an actual BLP or OTRS issue, it's a personal preference issue. Got it. --Calton | Talk 15:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In what way is an OTRS complaint in respect of a living individual not an OTRS or BLP issue? Just curious here. Guy (Help!) 16:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's an actual OTRS issue. Besides, if the subject does not identify as being Jewish, he has every right to identify himself in what way he wishes, especially if his parents are of different ethnicities. bastique 15:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Should the three Jewish-related links also be removed? --Sanfranman59 15:59, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Jewish editor support Agree with bastique. Plus, what does being jewish have to do with baseball? I played soccer in high school. Does that make me notable for being a jewish soccer player? Or just a soccer player?⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 16:15, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It should be retained precisely because of the sources. That is what makes it notable. Not any individual editor's references as to whether it is notable. That is completely POV. Wiki policy calls for us to focus on "notability," and explains what that means. Wikipedia:Notability (people), the notability criteria guideline for Wikipedia, states that "Notability on Wikipedia for people is based on the following criterion: The person has been a primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person. This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, magazine articles, books, scholarly papers, and television documentaries ...." Thus, where one is noted as being a Jew in multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person, such as newspaper articles, magazine articles, books, and the like, they meet the notability requirement. Importantly, there are a number of articles, cited, that point to the fact that he is Jewish. There is a major league baseball collection of Jewish Major Leaguer baseball cards. There are a number of Halls of Fame and lists and articles relating to Jewish baseball players. "Jewish Sports Legends," The International Jewish Sports Hall of Fame, Jews in Sports bios, National Jewish Sports Hall of Fame bios, The Baltimore Jewish Times runs articles on Jewish baseball players. It should all stay. Anything other is inconsistent with Wiki guidelines. See as well, [1] for a recent focus by Major League Baseball on certain baseball players for being Jewish. Or the article on the official major league baseball site[http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:nnf41ruY_94J:www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp%3Fymd%3D20040830%26content_id%3D842659%26vkey%3Dnews_mlb%26fext%3D.jsp+jewish+major+leaguers+%22major+league+baseball%22+mlb.com&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us "Jewish players celebrated at Hall." This is certainly notable. --Epeefleche 17:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

May I point out that some newspapers pretended that Nicolas Sarkozy was Jewish, whereas he's not? David.Monniaux 19:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Of course you may. Some newspapers may make mistakes. That's why we have 3 citations here. And none, for example, as to what his birthday is. Or what his wife's name is. It is the most heavily sourced reference in the article. Still, sometimes issues are in dispute. If that is the case, the other sources can be introduced as well. And the reader can decide. Here, we have someone asserting that he is the individual (unverified), writing profanity in the article in all caps as he deletes the reference. That's not reason to delete the reference, or to keep in his profanity, IMHO.--Epeefleche 19:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Epee: The notability guidelines you cited above are used to assess if a person is notable enough to warrant a WP article. They are not about what is notable (or verifiable) enough to be included in an article. Koplove's notability is not in dispute here. He is notable because he's been a major league baseball player. The more relevant guidelines are WP:LIVING, WP:CITE and WP:RS.
Regarding the sources used to support the claim that he is Jewish, if he were part of the Jewish Major Leaguer baseball card collection or in one of the Jewish sports halls of fame, it would be worth mentioning in his article. But looking at a couple of dozen web pages from a Google search revealed none that place him in either of these categories. The fact that he's listed on this web page doesn't make him Jewish. This is particularly true since this web site's primary purpose appears to be to sell baseball cards. For this reason, I think it probably violates WP:SPAM and doesn't belong on the page at all. Furthermore, the other two links are actually exactly the same article. At least one of these links should be removed and now we're down to just the one source. Given that his father's religious, ethnic and cultural background are really irrelevant to his notoriety, I think it should be left out of the article ... at least until additional reliable, primary sources can be found to support the claim.
As for finding a source that asserts that he is not Jewish, such a source may not exist if he chooses to keep his religion a private matter. For some people, their religious, ethnic, and/or cultural background is part of their public persona and bears mentioning in their WP article. For others, it is not and is unlikely to ever come up in primary source material. --Sanfranman59 20:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hi SFM. Two issues, I guess. One, is it appropriate to indicated that he is Jewish, if he is. Second, is there appropriate support for the statement that he is Jewish.[2], for example, opens up a discussion as to whether it is appropriate to indicate that Koplove is Jewish in the lead para, or not. But I see nothing to suggest that it is not innapropriate in the body of the article. And by implication, the guideline suggests that it is. We have a statement as to his wife's name. I think that the abovementioned Wiki guideline on notability, if nothing else, points to the relevance under Wiki guidelines of baseball players' ethnicity. Are you disagreeing with this point? Or are you agreeing, but suggesting that you do not find the sources to be as strong or numerous as you would like? If his religious persuasion is relevant, and it certainly is for Wiki notability standards -- and that is why there is a cat of Jewish baseball players ... the same precise rationale -- then it should be reflected. Will take a look at your point on the ELs that appear to be duplicative when I have a moment, and revert. Also, are we clear that he is not listed in the baseball card set? I had thought the opposite might be true, but don't have the time at the moment to check. Tx. --Epeefleche 23:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have no objection to making reference to a person's racial, ethnic, cultural or religious background. But only if it is known. In this case, someone (possibly Mike Koplove himself) obviously feels quite strongly that he should not be identified as Jewish. For me, that raises the bar for providing evidence that he is Jewish and a single article about Jewish baseball players in general that makes only a passing mention of him doesn't fill the bill. Furthermore, WP:BLP makes clear that "unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material" should not be included in these articles. The essence of this policy is to err on the side of caution.
I'm not sure that I follow the arguments in your last message. Taking them one-by-one:
  • WP:MOSBIO specifically says, "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability" (emphasis added). How does this imply that it should necessarily be mentioned elsewhere in a biography?
  • I don't see where the WP:NOTE has anything at all to say about baseball players' ethnicity.
  • I don't get your point about his wife's name (which you've now raised in two of your comments). What does this have to do with whether or not he's Jewish? If you think we need a source for his wife's name, I found it in his bio in the 2007 Florida Marlins Media Guide. Should there be a reference for this statement? Possibly so, but unfortunately, this article is more the rule than the exception when it comes to a lack of proper sourcing in baseball biographies.
  • Regarding the Jewish baseball card set, I don't know for certain one way or the other if he's included in any of these sets. All I know is that when I Googled it, I found no pages among the couple of dozen that I pulled up that list him as one of the players with a card in these sets. What I did find was several references to the fact that his father is Jewish and his mother is not and that, traditionally, Judaism is passed down maternally.
I think it's worth noting that Baseball-Almanac.com's Jewish Baseball Players page does not include Koplove.

I ended up here because I went to the Cleveland Indians website to see if Mike and his former Diamondbacks teammate David Delucci were back on the active roster, which they are. Delucci is off the DL and Koppy is listed as being on the active roster. This discussion is the first I've heard of Koppy being Jewish. I don't even remember seeing it last time I read his bio here, but I could be wrong. I always thought he was Catholic also. (BTW, a number of people, including actor Kevin Kline who I also love, have Jewish fathers and Catholic mothers.) Not that Koppy's religion or ethnicity matter to me, but it seems like it's become a pretty big deal here. As to his wife's name you can also find it in his Cleveland biography at Cleveland Indians Koplove Bio. Has anyone tried asking Koppy? He always came across here in Arizona (where some of us still miss him) as extremely personable and accessible, and I doubt if he's changed. I sent him a magazine article once to autograph and got it back in a matter of days. If anyone really wants to know, write him a letter in care of the team and you may get an answer. But we shouldn't assume we'll get an answer, just hope we will. Anthrogail 05:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)Anthrogail[reply]

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