Talk:Mieczysław Weinberg

Names and religion

• 'Mieczysław Samuilowicz' sounds absolutely ludicrous in the Polish language, which - unlike Russian - lacks patronimic names. Weinberg, therefore, could not have been born 'Mieczysław Samuilowicz', this is simply impossible! He called himself Moisey Samuilovich on his arrival in the Soviet Union, as patronimic names were mandatory in that country.

• If Weinberg was a Polish Jewish, and not Soviet Jewish, composer by vurtue of having been born in Poland, then Irving Berlin surely was a Russian Jewish composer, since he was born in Russia. Both wrote all their body of work in the Soviet Union and USA respectively.

• He was born into Polish Jewish family in Warsaw. Well, his family was in fact Bessarabian, if that matters (and he identified with Bessarabia - cf. Rhapsody on Moldavian themes). Have you ever heard about an American composer (writer, artist) something like "He was born into an American Jewish family in New York"? This is, of course, very patriotic, but an oxymoron indeed.

• There are no Russian language sources for the information that he ostensibly converted to Christianity a month before his death! Yet there is information that he was severely depressed and even in declining cognition for a long time before his death, obviating even a possibility of this conversion. The citation (5) refers to a Catholic site, where his ostensible conversion is presented as seeing light in the end of a tunnel, i.e. this is a biased site. In addition, it is highly unreliable informationwise: not only doctor Vovsi was not killed by Stalin and survived Stalin's death, but he was not even an uncle to Weinebrg's wife (he was Mikhoels' cousin), among other mistakes.

• 'Moisey" is a Russian language rendition of the Hebrew/Yiddish name 'Moishe'. It is not a Russian name as there are no ethnic Russians with this name; it is a Jewish name in Russia (Soviet Union). Weinberg simply used his Jewish name after his arrival in the Soviet Union; this is the name he was given at birth and not the name Mieczysław.

I don't understand the significance you place on the lack of Russian language sources for his conversion. Why is a Russian language source more reliable than an English one? Henry^Flower 08:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

- There are no other English sources either. If this were indeed true it would make its way prominently into practically any Russian language article on Weinberg - this is culturally a very important (and sensitive) issue in Russia (I can't even stress how important and how sensitive). Yet one cannot find a single reference. In addition, he obviously lived and died in Russia, making Russian sources sort of primary on the details of his life. I'd also like to mention (perhaps it should go into the main text), that he wrote music to some of the most popular cartoons and movies, so that some of his songs are known to any single Russian, adult or child (e.g. from Winnie-the-Pooh); their popularity was/is tremendous.

I wouldn't expect there to be many other sources- he was a relatively minor figure, and very marginal by the time of his death. Henry^Flower 15:06, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

There may be enough sources to decide certain controversial questions, and I do (I admit bias but hope this is reasonable enough) suggest that certain statements be removed from the page until they can e.g. be hashed out here, more than one source can be found to support them, etc. Schissel | Sound the Note! 19:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no particular interest in whether he died a Jew or a Christian - I think both are equally absurd beliefs - but since we have one source saying he converted and no sources saying he didn't, I see no particular reason to doubt the claim. (And if a Catholic publication were making things up about him, surely they'd say he converted to Catholicism, not to Orthodoxy?). Henry^Flower 20:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Orthodoxy is more common in Russia by a goodly amount. But while it doesn't interest me, I would leave it out of the article if it cannot be backed up rather better- especially if, but not only if, it is as important as our other correspondent ("our other correspondent?" how midcentury newspaperly sort-of) says.

I'm more interested in the debate whether he was or wasn't - and is or isn't, two questions, three or more if one asks when - well-known in Russia and the then-Soviet Union, and to whom. You may or may not have noticed but there's a debate here about that too. You may be right about "at the time of his death", and a copy of his obituary (and someone who can read it) would help here.

(I asked a Russian immigrant of very brief acquaintance who I gather was not classically-interested whether she'd heard of Nikolai Myaskovsky- not necessarily much by him, but the name- and her positive answer had a hint of 'of course I have' about it. Such questions interest me but I also believe, rightly or wrongly, that to the extent that they can be well-backed-up - rather better than I just did!! - they have some place in an encyclopedia article. I admit I may be very wrong and provably so by Wikipedia guidelines even... Schissel | Sound the Note! 21:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

He certainly wrote popular music for films and the circus, but his serious music was very much out of fashion by the 90s. For a start, this is the rather eminent Manashir Yakubov, in the sleeve notes to the Claves edition of the chamber symphonies: "Destitute, ailing, alone, forgotten, the last tormented days and years of ... Vainberg correspond to the popular stereotype of the classical musician who dies impoverished and abandoned... His 75th birthday in 1994 was neither mentioned by television and newspapers, nor were concerts of his music performed in his honor. It was as if he had ceased to exist. Spiteful tongues could have said that he outlive his music, but even the spiteful tongues had forgotten him".

It's a pity that Per Skans' biography hasn't appeared yet- it was meant to be out last year, but there's still no sign of it on the Toccata Press website.Henry^Flower 08:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

- Here's a pretty detailed article in Russian:

http://old.russ.ru/culture/song/20030226_ilya.html

And a little bit here - http://news.oboe.ru/?y=2004&w=50#news933 and here - http://www.gzt.ru/culture/2004/12/07/122400.html (BTW, in this latter interview his friend cellist Berlinsky calls him Metek).

I suspect that's a matter of transliteration rather than Russian spelling or pronunciation. Henry^Flower 21:50, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

- Here are 3 more articles where he is called Metek (Метек; in the last one a letter by Georgy Sviridov is cited using Metek): http://www.vestnik.com/issues/97/0916/koi/katseva.htm http://subscribe.ru/archive/russ.culture/200302/27012451.html http://www1.trud.ru/Arhiv/2000/01/21/200001210110505.htm Actually, Metek is diminutive from Mieczyslaw.

Transcription is not an exact science. Metak is the transcription used by Wilson. It really doesn't matter. Henry^Flower 08:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Could someone please post some guidance on the pronunciation of the name Mieczysław -- either an IPA transcription or a snippet of audio? 24.41.28.120 (talk) 20:51, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion it's absurd to put a reader into a discussion of his name so quickly after the lede. Is this really conventional? Can someone point to examples where this is accepted? This is "speaking footnote" level material, meriting at best a sidebar. What do you think visitors come to this page to read about? In some ways it reminds me of the joke law review article on the infield fly rule which added footnotes to the first word, "The". Frank Lynch (talk) 21:03, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

The transliteration and/or romanization of certain subjects can sometimes be a notable aspect about the subject themselves. This is the case with Weinberg. The article on Mao Zedong comes to my mind wherein a similar explanation immediately follows the lead. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 21:16, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but if you look at the article on Mao Zedong its lead is five long paragraphs, as opposed to one 15-word sentence here. Consequently, it's a long time before you get to the section on Mao Zedong's name; here it's immediate. Frank Lynch (talk) 22:06, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

So the problem you're identifying is the short lead then, not the placement of the naming section. Let me work on that; I'm in the midst of cleaning up the article. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 22:32, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I suppose that's one way of handling it, but it strikes me as "don't raise the bridge, lower the river." If I were writing a web page and weren't beholden to a style guide, I'd have an early line saying something like "please see this note regarding his name" and an anchor link to the naming section waay below. Or stick it in a sidebar. I think this attention to the name gets in the way of what a reader comes here for. Frank Lynch (talk) 22:45, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, whether one likes it or not, the spelling of his name remains variable in English (e.g. the recent box of the Silesian Quartet's Weinberg, therein spelled "Wajnberg").[1] Because of that, it remains a notable enough topic, not to mention source of confusion that it needs to be addressed early in the article, as is typical for biographical articles. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 23:12, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Can I suggest, that rather than spending any more time on the details of his name, that you redirect to writing a lead which isn't so tiny in comparison to the discussion of the name? Or, failing that, move the name discussion to the end of the article until such time as the article can support a detailed discussion in the place where you see it needing to be? It's as if attention is being given to the car's USB port and ignoring its transmission. Frank Lynch (talk) 12:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Number of symphonies

There are two contradictory values listed on the page for the number of symphonies composed by Weinberg (22 and 26). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Capricornus1967 (talk • contribs) 20:04, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Overtagging

Despite my efforts to improve matters, this article currently has three separate clean-up tags about its citations. As WP:OVERTAGGING makes clear:

Placing too many tags on an article is "tag-bombing", disruptive, or may be a violation of Do not disrupt Wikipedia to make a point

this is not to be done. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:16, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I was not aware of this rule, so thank you for directing me to it. I'll be more careful with this in the future. I think right now we're down to three templates. If not, let me whittle them down some more. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 22:34, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, three, as I said in the first sentence of my post. It's too many. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:23, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Leaving Warsaw on 6 Sept 1939

The current article says: "Late on the night of September 6, 1939...he heard a radio announcement urging all citizens of Warsaw to flee as the arrival of the German Army was imminent." The FACT is different: "Umiastowski was the head of the propaganda department in the Polish High Staff. On the night of 6/7 September 1939 he aired a message on the radio, urging all able men of Warsaw to go to the front; the idea was to man a defense line east of the Vistula" Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Umiastowski Davos2003 (talk) 03:14, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

You're probably right, but my sources, which included Weinberg's testimony, said otherwise. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 20:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for a quick response, it gave me some material for thought.

I just realised a difference between approach a native Pole conscious of 123 years of existence under Russian rule, followed by year 1920 war with Soviet Union and this of ethnic Jew with tradition of migration due to some sort of oppression.

Another point is that for many Jewish people communism was quite attractive. 49.190.242.34 (talk) 05:50, 28 April 2024 (UTC)