Talk:Midland American English

Western, ENE, WNE, etc.

I'm glad we now have a Midland article. Thank you, Jack Lumber. I think the dialects on Wikipedia should correspond with those in ANAE. Right now, that's obviously not the case. I realize the Western dialect is largely the same as this one, but ENE and WNE could use articles. Should the General American article stay? I don't know if it could be deleted anyway. Thegryseone (talk) 03:04, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

We currently have a New England English article, but it's a mess--not to mention that there's no single "New England English" in the first place. General American exists as a region-free, idealized set of speech patterns; it doesn't exist as a regional accent, however, so it can't be analyzed within the same framework as Midland, Western, etc. The General American article should stay IMO, but with the caveat that it's something different from Southern American English, Midland American English, or Inland Northern American English. Jack^(Lumber) 14:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that GA is just a concept, and it doesn't actually exist. Thegryseone (talk) 17:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't exist *as a regional dialect*; in this respect, it's similar to Received Pronunciation, which used to be associated with a specific region of England but it's not anymore. General American does exist as a region-free accent, and its speakers are found throughout the country. Jack^(Lumber) 19:31, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

So, how is the (North) Midland dialect different form GA? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 21:04, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that Labov, Ash & Boberg have the answer (Chapter 19). They do not justify the labeling of any one dialect as "General American", a term promoted by John Kenyon to indicate a conservative Inland Northern dialect. But the Inland North dialect is now strikingly different from other North American dialects because of the NCS. Therefore, The Midland dialect ... would have a much stronger claim to be the lowest common denominator of the various dialects of North America. Many features of the Midland are the default features – that is, the linguistic landscape remaining when marked local dialect features are eroded. Jack^(Lumber) 21:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

If one were to exclude NCS from the modern Inland Northern dialect (as many people in rural areas still do, for example), would it be safe to say that that would be the dialect that most closely approximates General American? Talu42 (talk) 06:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Saying "exclude NCS from the modern Inland Northern dialect" is largely meaningless—the Inland North is defined by modern dialectologists as the area subject to the NCS. On the other hand, General American was more-or-less based on the dialect spoken in the Inland North before the NCS began, so you may be right in that respect. AJD (talk) 00:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Fronting of /aʊ/

Do you have a source for that Jack Lumber? I mean, I'm quite sure that it happens, but you know Wikipedia. Thegryseone (talk) 03:12, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, don't worry, I can provide citations for just about everything--except of course the statements with the "citation needed" tag... Jack^(Lumber) 14:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I also have a formant chart for the North Midland; I'm going to upload it later on today. Jack^(Lumber) 14:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Original Research About the Boundary Between the Midland and the South

The actual Midland dialect is a bit more complicated. People southern Illinois, southern Indiana, and southern Ohio speak a Southern-influenced dialect. I have also heard speakers of this dialect from Missouri, Iowa, and Kansas. It may not be identical to SAE, but it definitely bears resemblance to it. I'm pretty sure that all of the speakers of this Southern-influenced dialect are outside the Inland North. From what I've observed, the speakers of this dialect are: 1.)Of a lower social class (in a supposedly classless society) 2.)From rural areas or small towns (outside of the Inland North region as I said). I have heard speakers of this dialect from as far north as Roseville, Illinois (not that that's a notable place). This very well could be a sociolect. Please don't tell me to research this, because I would like to; I just can't right now. Thegryseone (talk) 03:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I finally read the article now. How stupid of me. It's the South Midland I'm referring to. People there sound very different from the people of the central parts of those states. But there are people surprisingly far north who speak something similar. Thegryseone (talk) 04:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I have sources for that too. Each one of Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio can be divided into at least three dialect areas; this should be emphasized somehow. Jack^(Lumber) 14:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm from Southern Indiana (which according to this article is in the South Midland region) and I disagree with your description of South Midlands English. All of my grandparents and my parents are from the South Midlands and neither they nor any of the other natives of the area I know use y'all or shorten /ɑɪ/ to [ɑː]. Does anyone dispute this, or can it be corrected?

I have noticed some pecularities in the speech in this area. For example most people here say roof with the u sound in hoof and milk with the e sound in yet. Many people also saw "whenever" instead of "when," i.e. "Whenever I turned 16, my parents bought me my first car." Is this tendency found in any other region?

Irishevan99 (talk) 22:28, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Lead paragraph

I'm having trouble getting across a particular important idea for the lead paragraph. Here is the sentence in question as it stands now:

Midland American English's "exact regional boundaries and defining features are somewhat debated among linguists due to its pronunciation undergoing rapid changes since the mid-twentieth century."

Here is the version of the sentence that I think gives a fuller picture and yet, obviously, it makes for a clumsy and unwieldy sentence:

Midland American English's "exact regional boundaries and defining features are debated among linguists due the fact that some linguistic studies base its definition more on its lexical/vocabulary features and others more on its phonological features and even furthermore due to the fact that its pronunciation has begun undergoing rapid changes since the mid-twentieth century."

Any thoughts on how to get these same ideas across more concisely or neatly? Wolfdog (talk) 06:16, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

"Its exact regional boundaries are somewhat debated among linguists because there a variety of possible ways to define its key features, and communities in the region have been undegoing rapid phonological change"? AJD (talk) 07:34, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Bad map

The pink and green map near the top of the article includes Philadelphia but not central and western Pennsylvania in its broadly-defined Midland / SE super-region area. This is definitely wrong; central and western PA is more Midland-like in virtually respects than southeastern PA, and so any definition or map of the Midland that includes the latter should include the former. Can someone redo this map? AJD (talk) 07:37, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

• True. Not sure how I overlooked this. Ping me in a few days if I forget to change this. Are we considering Western Pennsylvania English (as well as Mid-Atlantic American English) a type of Midland English? Wolfdog (talk) 16:01, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Actually, the ANAE does not classify central and western Pennsylvania, on p. 137, as part of the southeastern super-region on the basis of the Midland/Southeast showing no completed cot-caught merger. (I do see other discrepancies on the WP map.) Of course, the ANAE gives just one definition of Midland American English. Wolfdog (talk) 16:20, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
    • Well, huh. (But defining the southeastern super-region by "cot-caught merger was not yet quite complete in 1996" is clearly a definition doomed to obsolescence, even more than most dialect-region definitions.) AJD (talk) 18:09, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
      • I agree that it's an odd basis for a definition. Feel free to take down the map if you think it's more confusing than clarifying. There's so much transition in the Midland at the moment that there is probably no universally appealing map. Wolfdog (talk) 20:22, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Buffer zone

@Blazerbullet: Hi. Once again, removing "lexical distinction" and replacing it with "buffer zone," even with a source, doesn't help an everyday reader to understand what you mean. The term "buffer zone" is usually used in a military or environmental(ist) context, so it's hard to understand what it means here. You appear to be replacing a less vague term with a more vague term. Why? Wolfdog (talk) 13:21, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Would the average person know what "lexical" means? I don't see what's wrong with what I added if it's sourced content. The New York Times is one of the most read newspapers worldwide. If they use this term, I see no reason why it can't be used here. Blazerbullet (talk) 17:21, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

@Blazerbullet: My problem is that you were using a more vague term while I was using a clearer one. Yes, The New York Times is certainly respected, but this doesn't mean its writers use a tone/style that should be copied for an encyclopedia. Even in the article you provide, your writer uses such colorful language as "like trying to put a square peg in a round hole", "there was little mystery as to..." and an accent being "so widely mimicked that the region seems a bit like an overharvested fishing ground". Wikipedia avoids such similes, metaphors, or idioms in favor a more objective, encyclopedic style; the same goes for the undeniably "fun" but unclear term "buffer zone." Even if a linguist casually used the term "buffer zone" (which I've read before but is not specifically-defined), "lexical" actually gives some more concrete meaning. It's an established term in linguistics with an exact definition. On the other hand, what exactly makes a dialect a "buffer zone"? While "lexical" may be unfamiliar, at least it can be looked up in a dictionary or a reader-friendly piped link can be created to something like lexicon and lexicology. I'd be happy to make such a link. (The ANAE includes such descriptions, by the way, such as: "The Midland was first defined by Kurath (1949) on the basis of its lexicon and its settlement history" [p. 265].)

On an unrelated note, I notice from the way you cite that you've missed some Wikipedia conventions. Sources are cited with no space between the citation and whatever precedes it, and also usually we cite directly after a punctuation mark rather than after a word. Wolfdog (talk) 18:49, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

@Wolfdog: He's been banned as a sockpuppet (maybe of G-Zay, I don't know, I didn't report him and neither did you I suppose), so you can just revert whatever he changed. Mr KEBAB (talk) 18:27, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

There is another sockpuppet at Talk:Gay lisp, whose username is Fivejohnny5. He's also been banned. These usernames look awfully like G-Zay to me. Mr KEBAB (talk) 19:27, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

The number of sockpuppets with a keen interest in sociolinguistics here is baffling (and even a little amusing)! Thanks for the heads-up, as always. I was wondering how long I'd need to wait for responses. Yeesh. Wolfdog (talk) 19:45, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

@Wolfdog: No problem. I hope admins keep up the good work and detect the socks before they make too much damage (you remember what happened... again, again and again). I don't watch most AmE-related pages so I usually don't intervene. Mr KEBAB (talk) 19:54, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

"Mango" in Vocabulary section

I was surprised to see the usage of the word "mango" in the midland vocabulary section, because that's something I've never heard of as someone from the midland. I thought that section could use either some more references (the most recent reference used by the reference cited in the article is from '72), or more specification for the area in which this is common, because, either KC metro is the only midland area that doesn't do this, this is more specific to some midland regions, or it's out of date. Thoughts/more references, anyone? This is obviously based on my anecdotal life experience, but this raised a pretty big question mark for me. If I asked a grocery store or restaurant in KC metro for mangoes, they'd point me to the fruit, not a green bell pepper. I would also never see a restaurant advertising green bell peppers in a dish as "mangoes" 2601:282:8102:5130:7CD8:6080:C92C:9EF0 (talk) 22:48, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

The Dictionary of American Regional English certainly claims that mango in this sense exists across the Midland region at large, from Ohio to at least Missouri. It may be that this is an old-fashioned and recessive variant, or mainly found in rural areas, or something; but it's definitely documented across most of the Midland region. AJD (talk) 00:15, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Right, that is the main source used in the article. I'm questioning to what extent it's still relevant beyond its academic interest as a word that has been historically used to some degree, and if that should be noted in the main article? I also question whether the single source is reliable enough on its own, especially when it relies upon compilation of quotes and survey, and when the last primary sourced indication of the quoted usage is over 50 years old? Beyond that, DARE also includes a primary source claiming the usage of "mango meaning pepper" into Georgia and Virginia, as well as an entry in California - so this is, by DARE's primary source, not just a midland vocabulary word, but there's no specification as to the fact that "mango" is used in this way in other regions. It just seems lacking in necessary specificity, especially compared to the other entries in the section which do include some specificity 2601:282:8102:5130:D4D6:B302:63E5:C8C4 (talk) 00:41, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Edited: sorry, I repeated the same thing over and over, and probably could have said the same thing in two lines... 2601:282:8102:5130:D4D6:B302:63E5:C8C4 (talk) 00:51, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Interesting! That was the one example that most resonated with me! My mother is from west-central Ohio and mangoes is exactly what she and the people there call bell peppers. If you had asked anyone in a grocery store there, say 20 years ago, for mangoes, green bell peppers would be exactly what they would point to. They wouldn't even know what the fruit called a "mango" was. On that subject, I grew up in the Washington DC metro area and I didn't see mangoes in grocery stores till at least the 1990s. And then they were a little pile in the "exotic fruits" section with starfruits, ugli fruits and the like. Venqax (talk) 21:38, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Pop vs Coke in Indiana

I have noticed a slight error on the "Pop vs Coke" section of this article. In Indiana, at least in and north of the Marion county area most people would say "pop" to refer to anything beyond actual Coca-Cola and its derivatives. Even the older generations, such as my mother and father (born in 1958 and 1962 respectively), do not say Coke as a generic term even though they both grew up poor. However, I know very few people from Southern Indiana and that might be the decisive factor in this. However, the article DOES state that Midland is slowly dying out in favor of a more standardized accent and I do belong to the Millennial (1981-2000 definition) generation. Yet, I still question the validity of using outdated, culturally/ethnically unvarying research to define the ethno-linguistic makeup of an entire state of six million. WoloJuice (talk) 15:49, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

• WoloJuice, thanks for discussing! This map here seems to suggest that in most of Indiana geographically, pop is preferred, as you say, with coke preferred specifically in the center and the southwestern tip. Katz's popularized heat maps (based on the Harvard Dialect Study) here also seem to suggest pop is the majority feature of the state. Feel free to change the article! Wolfdog (talk) 09:43, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Blinds

I'm pretty sure most accents call them blinds. I'm having trouble finding a source to back me up but, even British people I've met call the blinds and not window shutters. Polargrizbear (talk) 16:32, 23 September 2023 (UTC)