Talk:Michelle Thomas/Archives/2013

Untitled

Where is the language teacher Michelle Thomas? We used to have such a nice article, why do was it deleted?

See Michel Thomas. Hope that helps! — Catherine\^talk 21:16, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Age Correction

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.229.78.183 (talk) 13:54, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

one thing i like to point out is that she was born on Sep,23,1968 not 1969....and she died on dec,23,1998 not 22...she was also 30 when she passed away not 29. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edit&Post (talk • contribs) 20:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Cited source agrees with September 23, 1968 but establishes December 22, 1998 as date of death. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:33, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Again, the source cited gives her date of death as 22 December 1998. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Anyone attempting to change the date of death will need to provide a WP:RS. A google search is not a reliable source. The current source cites to AP wire and clearly gives the date as 22 December. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:10, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Also supporting 22 December: AP wire, infoplease/Pearson, Variety, Entertainment Weekly, The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, UPI, and The Washington Post. Dissenting views People gives 23 December and maybe UPI saying "today" in a weekly summary that ran 24 December (likely quoting an earlier story verbatum). Yes, there are thousands of sites giving a date of death, but those are the only reliable sources that I found. If you find others, post them. Until then, I will continue to revert changes that do not cite reliable sources. If the barrage of IP edits continues, I'll ask for page protection on the article, a check user to see if there is a registered user connected to the edits and, if needed, we can always contact Comcast and T-Mobile. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:05, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Now that we've confirmed that you are reading the talk page, please discuss the issue. - SummerPhD (talk) 11:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Now we have insistence in a hidden comment that the People article is right. However, by virtue of making that claim, the editor is in fact also claiming that the AP wire, infoplease/Pearson, Variety, Entertainment Weekly, The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, UPI, and The Washington Post are wrong. The comment insists that I read the article, which I already have. Now I ask that the editor(s) read the other articles and explain how, exactly "they" came to know that all of those sources are wrong. I will allow a couple of days before changing this back and citing all of those sources. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:29, 30 April

2009 (UTC

her Age is 30 Not 29....on September,23,1998 she Turned 30. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edit&Post (talk • contribs) 22:47, 4 May 2009

Not without a reliable source for a birthdate, she didn't. - SummerPhD (talk) 03:13, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

you say Wikipedia is about Verifibility not Truth???...so your Saying Incorrect Dates and Ages Confirmed by Multiple so Called Reliable Sources is what goes??....this is Excactly why i notice so many Articles in Wikipedia with Inaccurate Information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edit&Post (talk • contribs) 21:47, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

See WP:V. - SummerPhD (talk) 00:10, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

<- agreed, why does this article say she was 29....or 30 when she died, if we have exact dates —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.249.175 (talk • contribs) 10:55, 10 June 2010

Dates Confirmed

this site Confirms that my Cited Dates are Correct the sites URL is http://www.myspace.com/michellethomastribute

while i know Myspace is often a Questionable source of Iformation,the Dates have been Confirmed by Michelle's Mother.

the site is Very Detailed so i fell it is a Reliable Source,more Reliable than those Previously Listed.

if you need more Conformation of these dates,then contact the owner of the site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edit&Post (talk • contribs) 18:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

As soon as you are able to provide evidence from a reliable source for that date or that the Myspace page is, in fact, run by Thomas' mother you will have something. Until then, the AP wire, infoplease/Pearson, Variety, Entertainment Weekly, The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, UPI, and The Washington Post, as detailed above, are the reliable sources. - SummerPhD (talk) 21:04, 1 May 2009

if you still need Conformation an Adress Was Given,directly to the Thomas Family and possibly you could Write them a letter asking your Questions.

the Adress is the Following: The Thomas Family

                            c/o Nancy Bradley Wiard
                          The Young and the Restless
                            Los Angeles,CA 90036

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Edit&Post (talk • contribs) 01:25, 2 May 2009

I have no intention whatsoever of contacting her family and saying, "I don't know you, but please tell me when your daughter died. That is an intrusion into their lives. Furthermore, if they did respond, I would have an unverifiable source. I don't see any indication that the myspace page is by Thomas' mother, as you say. However, I do see TWO dates of death. The bio states, "On December 23, 1998, Thomas died...". The Facts about Michelle section says, "...when she died on December 22, 1998." To my mind, this makes it unlikely that the site is by Thomas' mother and certainly disqualifies it as a WP:RS. - SummerPhD (talk) 12:31, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

the page is not Run by Michelle's mother it is run by someone closely associated with her....Phynjuar (Michelle's Mother)has a Myspace also.....that Adress would be www.myspace.com/thespiritofphynjuar

this webpage can be Confirmed by a Video of Michelle's Mother being Interviewed.

The Link is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmV0hNgBz7o&feature=playlist&p=16379284192EE587&index=0 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edit&Post (talk • contribs) 16:01, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

You claimed http://www.myspace.com/michellethomastribute provided dates that were verified by Thomas' mother, it actually gives both dates. Now you provide a second myspace page (www.myspace.com/thespiritofphynjuar) which provides no date. Neither one supports your claim... - SummerPhD (talk) 21:54, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

look...contact the owner of both myspace pages,its not a Claim...just because the so called trusted sites are Popular doesnt mean they are Right...since i do not own either one of the pages they are who you should contact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edit&Post (talk • contribs) 00:29, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

There is no reason to contact the poster of either myspace page: one gives both dates, the other does not give a date. Even if we knew for certain who posted them, it does nothing to resolve the issue. One says 12/23 and 12/22. The other says nothing. Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. We can verify, through numerous reliable sources that the 12/22 date is correct. Other than that, we have one reliable source that says 12/23 and your repeated claims without meaningful support. Unless you have something concrete to point to -- not inconsistent, unverified myspace pages; reliable sources -- there is nothing more to discuss here. Failing the arival of such sources, I will revert the date, with cites, to 12/22. - SummerPhD (talk) 01:39, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

DOB...again

Since there seems to be a issue with Thomas' DOB, I've removed the mention of her being "29 or 30" at the time of her death. I think the wording is a bit odd and since we can't be definitive about it, I don't think we should mention it at all. If someone is desperate to know her age, IMDb has it as does other sources. Pinkadelica^♣ 07:55, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Reliable sources indicate she was 29 or 30. If we simply omit the info, users would likely end up finding ONE source (often an unreliable one like IMDb) and either trusting it to be correct or, worse still, adding it here. By including the sourced ages, we make it clear that her age has been reported (at least) two ways. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:39, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi there, I somehow casually ended up here in the article and found that the birth date of this individual is missing. It might interest editors involved in the article that Allmovie lists her birth date as September 23, 1969. — ξ^xplicit 04:11, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Here is yet another source--a repost of the AP report that CBS put on their website when she died. http://www.dsrct.com/michellethomas.htm The evidence seems pretty overwhelming and unless there is a reliable source that conflicts the same DOB every other source is reporting, it needs to stay in. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 03:54, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

As for this being "yet another source", we have yet to find even ONE reliable source. The sources we did have gave the date as September 23, 1968 or September 23, 1969.

Your cite says "Michelle Thomas dies of cancer at 29, CBS Website, December 1998." However, your source is not the "CBS Website" (http://www.cbs.com/), rather it is DSRCT.com. The only mention of "Michelle Thomas" on the CBS website is a useless forum posting.

Is your source a website reposting info from "the CBS website"? It doesn't say it is. Rather, it gives two reports.

The first one "Michelle Thomas dies of cancer at 29, CBS Website, Dec. 1998" is purportedly from "CBS Website". Where and when we aren't told. I would be shocked if CBS' website gave a date of birth for someone who, at the time, is not in one of their shows. The story might have come from CBS News' website (cbsnews.com), but we have no way of knowing. This story does not give a date of birth.

The second source seemingly coped to that page gives the date of birth you are citing. It claims to be from "AP wired reports, Spring 1999". Yes, the Associated Press Wire would likely have reported on her death and may have mentioned her birthdate at that time. A few problems crop up, though. "AP wired reports" is a bizarre way to cite an AP wire story that "reports" something. Next, it is not a story reporting on the news of her death, which isn't mentioned until the fourth paragraph, though the end mentions she "is survived by..." which would fit in an obituary. Next is the date, "Spring 1999". Thomas died in December 1998. Why would the AP run this story three months later? I'm guessing the website we're looking at is picking up these stories from all of the other sites posting them in exactly the same form, with exactly the same weird attributions. Example:[1] For its part, the AP does not currently show anything on this Michelle Thomas.

Looking at the two stories of unknown source together, we have another problem. The first article says she dies at age 29. The second says she was born in September of 1968 and died in December of 1998, several months after her 30th birthday.

Given the ongoing confusion of her age when she died (reflected in the article), I'm asking for ONE reliable source giving her date of birth. An unreliable source, like DSRCT.com, giving two conflicting stories cited incorrectly to two sources that would not have reported in the way they are shown is not a reliable source.

The article gives eight reliable sources. They variously report her age at death as 29 or 30. None of them give a birthdate. With zero reliable sources giving a birth date and a good deal of confusion among them, I cannot see justification for selecting one of two unreliably sourced birthdates to include. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:25, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay, here you go.... [2] That says she was 30 and was put into print shortly after her death. Since the debate is over her birth year & not her birth day or month, that source (in conjunction with all of the other sources) demonstrate that his young lady was born in 1968. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 14:38, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

And yet another from People magazine. [[3]].... Erikeltic ^(Talk) 14:50, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps this [4] with a thank you from her mother will be enough? So far that's Jet, People, and an obituary with comments from her mother all saying she was 30. I'll keep looking.... Erikeltic ^(Talk) 15:01, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

No, we cannot accept the month and day of multiple unreliable sources as correct, take the age of death from some of the reliable ones and calculate a date of death.

You give us Jet saying she died at age 30, People saying she died at 30 and a blog saying she died at 30 (I don't see anything claiming to be a thank you from her mother). The article also gives The Bay State Banner (29), infoplease (29) and The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel(29) along with Entertainment Weekly (30) and Los Angeles Sentinel (30). This thouroughly supports what the article says: Thomas died "at the age of 29 or 30." None of them give a date of death and we cannot simply ignore the reliable sources you disagree with.

We need a reliable source giving us her date of death. We do not have that. I'll let this go for a little bit (for you to respond) before reverting. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:21, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Jet and People magazines are reliable sources for this young lady's age when she died. You asked for one source & I gave you two new ones. The Fathersfootprints obit has comments from Phynjuar Thomas, with a link to her website (which contains additional information about Michelle). The references to age 29 are reprints of original stories (like the AP citation I attempted to use and you knocked down--fair enough). People is a mainstream news source for the entertainment world and Jet is a mainstream news source for the African-American community. Granted Jet is recreated on Google, but it is a complete scan of the entire magazine, not a typed copy that cannot be verified. Both of these satisfy reliable source and I would urge you not to revert again, otherwise you'll be dangerously close to 3RR. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 15:31, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I also just realized that the NY Times and the EW articles about her are not typed reprints, but actual links to their websites. So that's Jet, People, Entertainment Weekly, and the NY Times all stating that she was 30 years of age when she died. That's more than enough to satisfy your request for one reliable source. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 15:37, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Jet, People, NYTimes and EW are relaible sources. That give her age at death as 30. Other reliable sources cited in the article say 29. Both are included in the article as they should be. None of them give her birthdate. The blog, giving a year of death, is a blog (not a reliable source). Someone using the screen name "Phynjuar" comments on that article, saying, "This is just Magnificent Thankyou! I am spechless"(sic). The user name in that forum does link to a site about Thomas' mother. While I don't know that this means the comment is from Thomas' mother, I don't care: the blog post does not give a month and day, nor does the comment say the article is correct in all respects. I'd be hard pressed to expect, "This is just Magnificent Thankyou! I am spechless, even if you got the year of her birth wrong."

We do not have a reliable source giving the month and day of her birth. We have multiple unrelable sources giving the same month and day, but different years. Clearly, at least half of them are wrong about the year. It does not follow that they are all right about the month and day.

We have multiple reliable sources giving her date of death. Previous editors gave a different date of death sourced to unreliable sources, including one allegedly from Thomas' mother. Ignoring the unreliable sources, we include the date of death from the relaible sources.

We have multiple reliable sources giving her age at death as 29 and multiple reliable sources giving her age at death as 30. We also have multiple unreliable sources giving her age as 29 and multiple unreliable sources giving her age as 30, including at least one of each purportedly supported by Thomas' mother. Ignoring the unrelaible sources, we give her age at death as 29 or 30, citing the multiple reliable sources for each.

I am not the least bit interested in a non-productive edit war and will not knowingly violate WP:3RR. That said, I have no intention of leaving the unreliable source currently there and cannot support your synthesis on this. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:52, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

You have only one "original" source that states 29, not 30. I have provided you with 4 sources that state 30, when you asked for only one. By the logic you're using, there could be 1000 sources stating she was 30, but if there is one saying she was 29 it is up for debate. I have provided you with ample sources and now the budren of proof is on you to come up with reliable sources that state she was 29. If that's an issue for you, I suggest you take it to arbitration or invite some neutral third party editors to weigh in here. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 16:00, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I am unsure why you removed some of the sources. Please use edit summaries to explain such removals. Why did you remove them? My logic was based on three reliable sources in the article (prior to your removal), not one. Your 100 to 1 comment is absurd. We do not have a reliable source for the month and day of her birth. We have reliable sources saying she was 29 and multiple reliable sources saying she was 30. The article said that. If you have a reliable source giving her date of birth, please provide it. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:51, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'll tell you what -- I emailed Ms. Thomas' mother and asked if it was possible for her to include her daughter's birthday on her tribute to Michelle, just for all those people who'd rather argue over Michelle's birth year instead of relying on valid sources available to them. There is some information about her death on Kool 'n the Gang's website, but nothing about her birth. Would information from one of her parents be acceptable to you??? Hopefully that will help you and others get passed worrying about factoids and allow us to improve the quality of the article itself and remember that it is about a talented young woman whose life was sadly cut short. Meanwhile, I will put together 8 additional sources so we can have a dozen. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 18:05, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Would that be the MySpace tribute supposedly approved by her mother, the MySpace account that supposedly belongs to her mother, the blog by someone apparently unrelated with a comment by someone who might be her mother, the website about her mother (but referring to her in the 3rd person) or some other tribute? If we have a site that we can verify is run by Thomas' mother, then yes, that would be reliable. (A site somewhere with someone using a screen name that is the same as Thomas' mother is not verifiable as being her mother.) Maybe she could point you to an article in a reliable source that does cite Thomas' birthdate? - SummerPhD (talk) 19:32, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

No, it's her actual website. [5] Erikeltic ^(Talk) 19:37, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

...And we know it's her actual website how? - SummerPhD (talk) 19:40, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, aside from the contact information, she is the domain registrant for starters. [6] Erikeltic ^(Talk) 19:44, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

(Exdent) I'm still wondering about this edit. What's the story. Also, I'm just now noticing the entry above your first in this topic giving a link to Allmovie with a birthdate. I've seen Allmovie claimed as a reliable source before, but I don't really know much about it. I'm going to do some digging and see what I can find. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:53, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

The website referenced is not the MJS and is a recreated/ secondary source of the original materials. Per our earlier discussion about the reproduced AP obituary, I had thought we should/would stick to original (or scanned original) materials only and not typed reproductions. I tend to agree w/ your assessment of the AP article that is not on the AP's website, but only if that same logic applies to all sources. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 20:00, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

High Beam, tomy knowledge, is an archival site used by numerous media outlets. I don't believe they are re-typing articles. I'll do some digging on that issue as well. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:05, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps, but can you guarantee their authenticity without the original source materials or references from the original websites? Erikeltic ^(Talk) 20:12, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Age of Death: HighBeam, Factiva and Lexis-Nexis are fine as for getting copies of newspaper articles. For what is is worth, I have done a Factiva search, and there are multiple reliable sources for both 29 and 30.

29 Buffalo News, Plain Dealer, The Record, Toronto Star, New York Post (actually "twenty-something")

30 Houston Chronicle, Tampa Tribune, Times-Picayune, New York Times, The Grand Rapids Press

I don't think we can go with one or the other with any confidence at this point.--Slp1 (talk) 21:30, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide links to the original materials? Erikeltic ^(Talk) 21:41, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

If you send me an email, I can send you copies of the articles. They will be in an electronic format, as stored on Factiva, which is a highly reliable newspaper archiving site. Otherwise, you will have to subscribe to Factiva or to go to your local library. If you do the latter, I can give dates and page numbers of where to find the articles. Online sources, available to all are not required. --Slp1 (talk) 22:05, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd be curious to see if this is one story that got picked up by multiple news outlets or several original obits in those same outlets. A lot of the obits I have seen reproduced online seem to have been written by the same person (unlike the four primary sources I have cited) and IMHO should only be counted as one source. Another editor suggested we follow the example at Audrey Tautou for the time being. What are your thoughts on that SLP? Erikeltic ^(Talk) 13:13, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I would also like to point out the following: in an interview about Michelle, her mother gives her Myspace address to the camera. On that Myspace page is a Michelle Thomas tribute that lists her life span as 1968-1998, which supports primary sources like Entertainment Weekly, Jet, People, and the New York Times (aside from the reproduced sources being used here for 1969). The constant battle over this is very baffling. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 13:55, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

If you can cite an accessable copy of the video (without violating copyright), I would have no objection to the following: List the MySpace page under external links, with the cite to demonstrate that it is Thomas' mother's page. Add an explanatory note (citing the sources) for the conflicting age claims. (Note, though, that the 1968-1998 does not necessarily conflict with the age 29 claim, though it does conflict with the sourced birhtdate.) I'm open to alternative suggestions. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:09, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I have restored the HighBeam Research archived articles as discussed on the Noticeboard, added the sourced birthdate (per [7]) and removed the "and age" portion of the deathdate tm in the infobox. The section on Thomas' death now shows age 29 with three sources and 30 with 4 (after removing a duplicate of the Jet reference). All of the reliably sourced information we have is now in the article, along with all of the sources (except for the sources Slp1 notes above, which seem to merely reinforce the division of sources between 29 and 30). Unless/until other reliable sources are found, I don't know what else we can really do here. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:02, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

What about a memorial site created by her own mother? Would that satisfy you? [8] And before you ask how do we know that is actually her mother, she references her Myspace site in a video-taped interview you can watch on Youtube. Her website contains links to this site. So even her own mother is saying she was born in 1968 and you'd think if anyone knew when this girl was born, it was her mom. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 14:11, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Before going through everything to verify the site, I'm not seeing a birthdate or the years listed on that Facebook page (earlier you mentioned a MySpace page). A previous editor(?) attempting to source her date of death insisted that a MySpace page was from Thomas' mother. While no verification was provided, the site actually gave two different dates of death. The Facebook page you just gave doesn't seem to provide the information. The unverified MySpace page does, but is internally inconsistant on the date of her death. How reliable is it if it doesn't agree with itself? - SummerPhD (talk) 16:51, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Are you referring to the date in the profile? That is generated from myspace, not the content within the memorial. The content within the memorial is what is important. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 16:54, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) On the MySpace page the bio states, "On December 23, 1998, Thomas died...". The "Facts about Michelle" section says, "...when she died on December 22, 1998." - SummerPhD (talk) 17:03, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

FYI... [9] that's an interview with Michell Thomas' mother. [10] That is the Myspace page she references in the interview, which has a Michelle Thomas tribute page attached to it. Please explain to me how if her own mother has no objection to seeing Michelle Thomas 1968-1998 on her public profile, how you can continue to object to all of that in conjunction with the primary sources I have cited (NY Times, Entertainment Weekly, Jet, AP, People)? Erikeltic ^(Talk) 17:02, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, I went straight to her mother's Facebook tribute page (which is attached to her website, which is legally registered to her via the Network Solutions Whois I gave you earlier, and is referenced in multiple locations across the Internet) to ask this woman's mother when her child was born and died because of your apparent ownership issues with this wiki. We will all soon see. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 17:08, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) Please be careful with your comments Erikeltic. Those sorts of remarks are unhelpful, and require lots of evidence. I see SummerPhD seeking the opinions of editors, which is hardly article ownership. In order to help resolve this problem, my suggestion would be rather than using Facebook etc as a conduit, to ask Thomas' family to contact WP:OTRS via email to provide their input about the correct information for this entry. This will avoid questions about who controls the various facebooks sites etc. I am sure that all any of us editors want is to get this right. --Slp1 (talk) 23:23, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Renewed DOB discussion

If anyone wants to help crack this DOB nut, here is some additional information. Michelle Thomas' mother's name is Phynjuar. She is often credited as Penni Phynjuar Saunders, Phynjuar Saunder-Thomas, and Phynjuar Dubois. A birth record with one of these names that we could match up with a social security death index would be the most ideal means of coming up with a rock solid DOB. I will update this talk page as I locate sources. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 17:09, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

If I'm understanding you correctly, you want to take her mother's name (unsourced) -- actually, several versions of her unsourced mother's name -- compare them to a name Michelle Thomas purportedly used (unsourced) at the time of her death to connect to an unpublished primary source? That's hardly the "ideal means of coming up with a rock solid DOB". "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources." - SummerPhD (talk) 18:41, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

That is not what I wrote. First of all--her mother's name can be sourced very easily, so your aggressive attitude is really unnecessary and quite perplexing. Please review WP:CIVIL for more information. Now I will reiterate what I wrote; if we can provide reliable sources with Michelle Thomas' DOB (sources related to her birth and/or death), then that would also be a means of establishing Michelle's birthdate. A birth certificate or her social security death registration would be the most direct means of accomplishing that goal. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 02:06, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Birth records and the social security death index are all primary sources. If we need a source to show Michelle Thomas's mother's name to compare to either one and/or the name Michelle Thomas was using at a particular time and/or need to "match up" birth records with the social security death index it's synthesis. The ideal method of coming up with a rock solid DOB is a published, reliable secondary source. - SummerPhD (talk) 05:16, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

A birth certificate (which would contain her mother's name) is not synthesis, despite what you may believe. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 12:45, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Matching up birth records/certificate to the social security index and sources for Michelle Thomas's purported other name and sources for her mother's name is synthesis. A birth certificate is a primary source. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

That is not what I wrote, but it appears to be what you want to read (again). As of right now, I'm not trying to change the DOB due to our previous discussions, but as soon as I get the proper sources we'll be having that discussion. As for the birth certificate, a primary source (no need to reference it) can be used to verify conflicting secondary sources. If it comes to it, I'll take it to arbitration over that just so we have the best wiki possible. As we don't have a birth certificate yet, that is a moot point. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 03:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Protection

Due to editors regularly missing the notice about DOB, I have semi-protected this page. I can't find the info anywhere except IMDb. If anyone can find a reliable source (other than IMDb) for the date of birth (not just year), then I have no objection to the removal of semi-protection. Gimmetrow 21:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

"...sometimes reported as 1969"

Currently, the article says, "Born September 23, 1968[1] (sometimes reported as 1969[2][3][4])" The sources used are 1 - allmovie, 2 - Bay State Banner, 3 - infoplease, 4 - Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. While #1 clearly states a birthdate of September 23, 1968, the other three sources do not give a birthdate. Yes, they all say she was 29 on the day she died (December 22, 1998). That would imply she was born between December 23, 1968 and December 22, 1969. The only way these "report" that she was born in 1969 is if we assume she was not born in late December 1968 or that those sources are using, but not reporting, the month and day (but not the year) of the sourced date we have. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:33, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Until you are satisfied with the sources, I have no objection to using the same format as Audrey Tautou. I think it is a fair compromise and will provide the reader with all of the available information until her Social Security death index or birth certificate are available. In addition, there are first hand sources from Michelle Thomas' mother (which we have been over) that indicate that she was born in 1968, as stated (by simple math if nothing else) in People, Jet, Entertainment Weekly, the New York Times, and a few others. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 13:50, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

That "first hand source" is not "first hand". A youtube video has her mother mentioning a myspace page which lists hundreds of "friends". One of them, of unknown origin, is a site that gives your preferred year of birth and two distinct dates of death. To the extent we accept that myspace of unknown origin as reliable (which I, for one, do not), we must report two dates of death.

The "simple math" from those selected sites would lead us to assume she was born between December 23, 1968 and December 22, 1969. They do not "report", nor do they imply, a birth year of 1969. To the extent that you believe they do, I invite you to consider that the other reliable sources saying she was 30 would "report"(!) a birthdate between December 23, 1967 and December 22, 1968. Your selected sources do not support 1969 unless the others support 1967 or 1968. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:23, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Date of birth: Given all the sourcing problems here, I am personally in favour of leaving the date of birth out until some more clearly reliable source is available. I realize that allmovie got a rather cautious nod at WP:RS, but I don't actually think it is good enough as a sole source for biographical info, when the actual date seems unclear. --Slp1 (talk) 17:49, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

DOB with proper source

Find A Grave bases their info on the dates that are on the tombstone and/or death certificates. I would call that reliable as I've yet to see someone lie on their tombstone.--Lilduff90 (talk) 09:11, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

A contemporary tombstone is likely to have the correct date of death, but if the date of birth is unknown or sufficiently ambiguous at the time of death to result in varying contemporary media reports, I don't see why a tombstone would automatically reflect the "correct" date of birth. Also, that findagrave page states 1969 but you edited the article to say 1968. Gimmetoo (talk) 11:02, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

A tombstone is purchased by the family (Michelle Thomas' mother and father). I will reiterate the compromise proposed by a neutral editor at the reliable sources noticeboard (and I thought agreed upon); we should include both possible birth years with sources. This approach has been done on several other wikis previously and would put the issue to rest. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 11:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Find a Grave is not a reliable source. It relies on user contributions by volunteers, and anybody can submit information. If there was a picture of Thomas' tombstone with the birthdate, it would be one thing. But there isn't.--Slp1 (talk) 11:31, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Next time I'm in New Jersey (which isn't terribly far) I am going to do just that. FWIW, her own mother's website and comments list Michelle's YOB as 1968. The sources for 1969 all appear to be from the same original source/story and have been repeated across the Internet. Unforutnatley Ms. Thomas' social security information is not listed at the SS death index pages or it is under another name. That would be the best citation possible, next to a notorized copy of her birth certificate. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 11:34, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

We've been through "her mother's own website" before. Repeatedly. We found no help. If you wish to revisit the issue, please review the discussion above. If you have anything new to add about the claimed source, please do. Otherwise, the unsourced claim is of no help. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:41, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

And I have dealt with your WP:OWN on this article enough to know that you will not be satisfied with any source short of a DNA comparision at her DOB and DOD, notorized copy of her birth certificate, or picture of her gravesite. I admire your dedication. I will be going to New Jersey within the next few months and I will be making a pitstop to add another photograph to this article. I don't particularly care either way, but like I wrote before; when both possibilities exist, the very least should be that we include them both. We will have our answer soon enough, I guess. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 21:58, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, when you accused me of ownership before, others disagreed. I'm asking us to cite reliable sources. Picking and choosing some sources over others and misstating what they say is not the same. My "ownership" of the article has gone with the consensus every single time. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:49, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

The article does "include them both". And again, a tombstone is not necessarily a definitive source for birth date. Gimmetoo (talk) 03:16, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

So first her mother and now her tombstone aren't reliable sources? What would you suggest we use then? Also, the article states that she died when she was 29 or 30; obviously this means that she was born in either 1968 or 1969. I do not see a problem with stating that 1968 or 1969 was her YOB. I guess anyone that wants a quick look for a year will have to go to IMDB or some other source of information than Wikipedia. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 04:35, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Tombstone isn't a reliable source? How couldn't it be a reliable source? I can think only some homeless or parentless people. Sure there can be a mistake, but also that is more likely to have been corrected, since it's been almost 12 years of the death. 82.141.117.133 (talk) 03:43, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Chug on over to Clara Bow: Clara Gordon Bow "(July 29, 1905 [1] – September 27, 1965)". However, her tombstone disagrees, by two years, as it has for the 45 years since her death. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:17, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Regardless, a tombstone is as a reliable source as any of the newspaper reports cited ad nauseum. FWIW, I don't believe her legal name at the time of her death was Michele Thomas. The Social Security death record index has no record of her whatsoever. That is the ideal source that we need to find. If her full legal name at the time of her death was something other than Michelle Thomas, we are going to have a hard time locating it. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 16:56, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Your "ideal source" is not ideal, as discussed above. - SummerPhD (talk) 18:44, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

We do not have, nor have we ever had an unambiguous date from her mother, as has been repeatedly explained.

You are simply incorrect about the year she was born, as has been explained. Assuming the birthdate we have is correct, if she was 29 or 30 when she died, she was born in 1968 or 1969 or 1967.

If someone goes to IMDb or some other source for "a quick look for a year", they will get what they want a year. It won't necessarily be a meaningful year. If they come to Wikipedia, they will find that reliable sources do not agree on her birthdate. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:08, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

"What would you suggest we use then?" When you look up otherwise "good" sources (major media outlets like CBS, NYT, etc) and find differing info, what do you do? I'm going to assume that you have reasons why stating a range of alternatives isn't sufficient. So, how would you resolve the discrepancies? You wouldn't just arbitrarily choose one. In some cases, you may be able to determine from textual analysis of the soruces that all the sources for one option were really derived from a single source, but there were multiple independent sources for the other option. If so, you might favor the multiple independent sources - probably enough to give it priority in the article and possibly enough to relegate dissenting sources to a footnote - but it wouldn't be conclusive. if the sources are ambiguous, to properly resolve the ambiguity I think I would generally need some sort of subject expert to resolve the info. In my opinion, one of the most important parts of such a resolution is an explanation for why the other options exist in typically reliable news reports. When Wikipedians try to resolve ambiguity based on their "expertise", the result rarely stands. But in some cases an expert aware of ambiguous info publishes something resolving and explaining it; sourced expertise is good. For some celebrities with disputed birthdates, there are reliable sources which not only give one birthdate, but explain why other, incorrect birthdates get reported, and I would think these would generally take priority. In some celebrity cases, the subject expert is the celebrity [or a relative] who claims, typically, that at some point in the career it was advantageous in some way for the celebrity to be presented as a different age, and later the celebrity changes the information. Such explanations strike me as fairly weighty if they are a statement against interest. Gimmetoo (talk) 14:16, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, I !vote in favor of reporting what reliable sources say. To the extent that reliable sources disagree (as in this case) I can find no policy or guideline that suggests we do anything other than report the varying dates and their sources. Previously, the reliable sources noticeboard was in favor of using allmovie.com as the sole reliable source for a birthdate (given as 23 September 1968). Another editor strongly objected. I'm torn on this one. Though consensus seems to be that allmovie is reliable, there is some dissent and it does not resolve the disputed age at death. As many news sources have canned obits waiting for most celebrities, the lack of sourcing for a birthdate seems, IMO, to indicate the date was not generally acknowledged and was not included in press bios, etc. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Whether a source meets the "QC tests" of being a reliable source, I think we can all agree that there is some serious evidence for both 68/69 camps. If Allmovie and her tombstone match, could we not list her DOB to read something like, "September 23, 1968 (sometimes reported as 1969)" with the appropriate sources for each? There are several other wikis that do something similar when a YOB is in question. The bottom line is that the best source for her DOB is going to be her social security death index or a copy of her birth certificate. Unfortunately, neither is currently available online. All of the sources available place her birthday as September 23 and the only difference anyone is debating is 1968 or 1969. I would hope that we can put that quesiton to rest. Erikeltic ^(Talk) 17:30, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I am not interested in "sources", I'm interested in reliable sources. So far, there is one source that has had any weight behind it that has also given a birthdate: allmovie.com. There are zero reliable sources giving 1969. The weight of the unambiguously reliable sources demonstrates that it is clearly an open question. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:01, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Michel Thomas

I think it may be worthwhile including a hatnote at the top mentioning that if they are looking for the teacher/linguist (inventor of the Michel Thomas Method) they should see the Michel Thomas article. There was apparently at least one person confused by the similarity of his name as seen in the first section of this Talk.
Perhaps suggest the following hatnote:
      {{about|the actress|polyglot linguist and language teacher|Michel Thomas}}
This would render as:

This page is about the actress. For polyglot linguist and language teacher, see Michel Thomas.

Thanks for any feedback. — al-Shimoni (talk) 05:58, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Seems straightforward enough. I've added it. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:30, 19 March 2012 (UTC)