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Discussion relating to this article taking place

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Please see Talk:Leader of Sinn Féin#Leader in Northern Ireland Assembly. Thank you. FDW777 (talk) 09:02, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion now moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland#Proposals regarding various Sinn Féin related articles. Thank you. FDW777 (talk) 16:17, 27 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Following the discussion here consensus is to change this article to remove some mentions of the "Leader of Sinn Féin in the Northern Ireland Assembly" position. Some issues relating to this article are still outstanding, I will begin a discussion relating to those later. FDW777 (talk) 09:09, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't she now be listed as First Minister Elect?

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Since she represents the party that got the most votes in the NI election, wouldn't it be correct to call her FM elect? Difbobatl (talk) 03:17, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, before anyone is elected to that office one isn't a "First Minister Elect". Str1977 (talk) 22:41, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Leader of Sinn Féin in the Northern Ireland Assembly" section

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Following on from the discussions linked to above, there are still outstanding issues in this section, largely because O'Neill's position has been variously described by media sources as being leader in the Assembly or leader in Northern Ireland.

Firstly, Michelle O'Neill's exact position, according to the Irish Independent. It states Gerry Adams recommended her for the role, which was then ratified by the Ard Chomhairle. Although described as a successor to Martin McGuinness by media sources and Sinn Féin themselves, there is no direct succession as he was dFM and she is not. This was apparently picked up by a shrewd reporter, as suggested by the line in the Independent "He clarified that the title of Mr McGuinness's successor would be "party leader in the North"." Despite, or perhaps because of this, even the Independent hedge their bets on exactly what "the North" refers to, describing her as "new leader in Northern Ireland" in the headline and article, before further down in the article referring to her as "the favoured choice of both Mr Adams and Martin McGuinness to take over the party's leadership at Stormont". This confusion has since carried on in numerous media sources, which describe her as "leader in Northern Ireland" or "leader in the Northern Ireland Assembly" or variants of those. Since O'Neill became Vice President in 2018 the "party leader in the North" position seems to have faded into possible non-existence, for example the BBC state of John O'Dowd's leadership challenge for Vice President been successful, "If he wins the nomination he would take the position of deputy first minister in a future Stormont executive". So as there has only been one "party leader in the North" to date and the position may not even exist any more, I don't think we need to bother ourselves with it too much so it can be left out of the infobox, succession boxes and so on. Obviously we need to document it in some way, and accurately, so I propose the following:

The section is retitled "Vice President of Sinn Féin. This neatly sidesteps the Northern Ireland versus Northern Ireland Assembly issue, and focuses on the more important role.

The photo is removed, unless someone wants to come up with a snappy caption that briefly explains the succession despite them having two different jobs?

The section is changed to the following

On 9 January 2017, Martin McGuinness resigned as deputy First Minister in a protest over the Renewable Heat Incentive scandal, triggering a snap election.[1][2][3] Ten days later, McGuinness subsequently announced that he would not run for re-election in the 2017 Northern Ireland Assembly election, due to ill health.[4] On 23 January 2017, it was announced that O'Neill would be Sinn Féin's new "party leader in the North".[note 1][7] O'Neill was favoured for the leadership ahead of former Provisional IRA member Conor Murphy; this marked a notable break in the leadership's direct association with the organisation.[8][9][10]
In the election, O'Neill topped the polls in Mid Ulster and was returned to the Assembly with a 20.6% share of the constituency's first-preference votes.[11][12] On 13 March 2017, she issued a statement calling for a referendum on Irish unity "as soon as possible" in response to the United Kingdom's decision to leave the European Union.[13] On 26 March, O'Neill stated that inter-party negotiations aiming to restore a power-sharing coalition in Northern Ireland had failed, and thus Sinn Féin would not nominate her for the position of deputy First Minister.[14][15]
On 10 February 2018 O'Neill became deputy leader of Sinn Féin, succeeding Mary Lou McDonald who became leader following the retirement of Gerry Adams.[16] In November 2019 she faced a leadership challenge from John O'Dowd, winning with 67% of the vote.[17]
  1. ^ O'Neill has been variously described as Sinn Féin's leader in Northern Ireland,[5] or leader in the Northern Ireland Assembly,[6] her official title is "party leader in the North".[5]

References

  1. ^ "Martin McGuinness resigns as NI deputy first minister". BBC News. 9 January 2017. Retrieved 9 January 2017.
  2. ^ "Subscribe to read". www.ft.com. Archived from the original on 30 March 2017. Retrieved 29 March 2017. {{cite web}}: Cite uses generic title (help)
  3. ^ correspondent, Henry McDonald Ireland (23 January 2017). "Sinn Féin names Michelle O'Neill as new leader in Northern Ireland". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Archived from the original on 25 March 2017. Retrieved 29 March 2017. {{cite news}}: |last= has generic name (help)
  4. ^ Dominiczak, Peter (19 January 2017). "Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness says 'very serious illness' has forced him to quit frontline politics". Daily Telegraph. Retrieved 19 January 2017.
  5. ^ a b Breen, Suzanne (23 January 2017). "Sinn Féin's Michelle O'Neill poised to be selected as party's new leader in Northern Ireland". Irish Independent. Retrieved 2 December 2019.
  6. ^ McDonald, Henry (19 November 2017). "Search for new Sinn Féin leader begins after Gerry Adams steps down". The Guardian. Retrieved 2 December 2019.
  7. ^ "Michelle O'Neill takes over as new Sinn Féin leader in North". The Irish Times. Archived from the original on 22 February 2017. Retrieved 23 January 2017.
  8. ^ correspondent, Henry McDonald Ireland (23 January 2017). "Michelle O'Neill: new Sinn Féin leader marks republican sea change". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Archived from the original on 25 March 2017. Retrieved 29 March 2017. {{cite news}}: |last= has generic name (help)
  9. ^ "Subscribe to read". www.ft.com. Archived from the original on 29 March 2017. Retrieved 29 March 2017. {{cite web}}: Cite uses generic title (help)
  10. ^ McKeown, Gareth. "Michelle O'Neill set to be named new Sinn Féin leader at Stormont". The Irish News. Archived from the original on 30 March 2017. Retrieved 29 March 2017.
  11. ^ "Sinn Féin's Michelle O'Neill tops poll in Mid Ulster". ITV News. Archived from the original on 30 March 2017. Retrieved 29 March 2017.
  12. ^ "NI Assembly Election 2017 Result Sheet – Mid Ulster (XLS)". The Electoral Office of Northern Ireland – EONI. Archived from the original on 30 March 2017.
  13. ^ "Michelle O'Neill calls for 'urgent' referendum on Irish unity". BBC News. 13 March 2017. Archived from the original on 29 March 2017. Retrieved 29 March 2017.
  14. ^ "NI political talks have run their course, says Sinn Fein". BBC News. 26 March 2017. Archived from the original on 28 March 2017. Retrieved 29 March 2017.
  15. ^ correspondent, Henry McDonald Ireland (26 March 2017). "Northern Ireland power-sharing talks break down". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Archived from the original on 29 March 2017. Retrieved 29 March 2017. {{cite news}}: |last= has generic name (help)
  16. ^ "Mary Lou McDonald and Michelle O'Neill new leaders of Sinn Féin". ITV. 10 February 2018. Retrieved 2 December 2019.
  17. ^ "Sinn Féin: O'Neill polled 67% in deputy leadership contest". BBC. 22 November 2019. Retrieved 2 December 2019.

The changes are the addition of a much needed third paragraph and a re-organising of the current first paragraph, including O'Neill's actual job title. While some may not like the use of "in the North" it is part of her job title and I have placed it in quotation marks to make it clear, and I don't see any other way round the Northern Ireland versus Northern Ireland Assembly conflict among sources. The footnote included does explain the situation well enough I hope? FDW777 (talk) 15:40, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A few comments:
  1. Please forgive me for re-formatting your post, but I found it difficult to respond under what looks like an article with headings, subheadings etc.
  2. In principle I agree with everything you say.
  3. I think your proposed edit takes a little too long to get round to mentioning O'Neill. I would shorten it, and also get rid of the dreaded "it was announced", with something like "In January 2017, when Martin McGuinness resigned as deputy First Minister in protest against the Renewable Heat Incentive scandal, and said that he would not stand in the resulting snap election, O'Neill was chosen as Sinn Féin's new "party leader in the North".[note 1][1]" I would also reduce the refs from four to one. Your ref 3 (The Guardian) is good for all of the information.
  4. I would be wary of saying "her official title is party leader in the North" in the footnote, if we are now taking the position that her official title is Vice-president of Sinn Féin. Better maybe to say "her title according to the party itself was 'party leader in the North'" (note the past tense).
  5. I would add a sentence saying that O'Neill led the Sinn Féin side at the subsequent talks aimed at restoring the Executive (Irish Times, Irish Independent). It's an important part of her "leadership" function.
  6. In February 2019 (exact date not needed), O'Neill became vice-president when McDonald became president. If ITV uses "deputy" and "leader", then an alternative ref should be found.
  7. I agree with renaming the section, although it's top-heavy with "leader in the North" at the moment, even with your proposed edit. That should change with time.
  8. I suggest "O'Neill with former dFM Martin McGuinness" as a caption for the image. It's still appropriate for the section.
Scolaire (talk) 12:35, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hopefully done to your satisfaction with the exception of 5 which I will get round to later, unless someone else gets there before me. I think we can proceed with normal article editing without discussing everything in advance since the major stumbling blocks appear to be behind us now. FDW777 (talk) 12:59, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Scolaire: did this edit of yours complete point 5? I ask because those talks were the March 2017 ones, whereas the Irish Times and Irish Independent were about the June 2019 and February 2018 talks respectively. FDW777 (talk) 18:43, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, it wasn't meant to complete it as such. I just saw that it would be an appropriate place to state it. The fact that the talks dragged on into 2018 and 2019, with her leading the Sinn Féin side, is important for her article. I just didn't get around to adding it. Scolaire (talk) 09:50, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Monarch, Vice President vs Deputy Leader, and deputy or Deputy

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An IP editor has removed the "Monarch : Elizabeth II" field from the infobox which has saved me a job. This specific field relating to the deputy First Minister position was discussed at Talk:Martin_McGuinness/Archive 2#Monarch/ appointed by where the rough consensus was "for exclusion of the monarch, largely because the monarch does not appoint the Northern Irish PM and deputy PM". Anyone wishing to include this field is welcome to make a case for it, but at present the rough consensus should prevail.

While references, and even Sinn Féin themselves at times, are inconsistent with whether Michelle O'Neill is the party's vice president or deputy leader, this page seems the most authoritative on the current leadership of Sinn Féin and the titles involved. As such, I have restored the wording that existed prior to yesterday. I will also add the references cited use "vice president", for the sake of thoroughness.

Lastly, it is claimed Talk:Martin McGuinness/Archive 2#"deputy" vs "Deputy" has consensus for the infobox to read "Deputy". I cannot see where this consensus is, but I will refrain from changing the article for now. I see multiple editors pointing out that "Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland" is not in itself a sentence, and the closer only states that a sentence shouldn't begin with a small letter, which nobody appeared to be arguing for anyway. There are numerous examples backing up "deputy", such as Kijiji, iPhone and numerous other i-prefixed Apple products. FDW777 (talk) 23:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm guessing you meant Northern Irish FM & deputy FM, rather then PM & deputy PM :) GoodDay (talk) 01:08, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Those are not my words, I was quoting the editor who closed the discussion. FDW777 (talk) 08:27, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Per the discussion linked to above, and also the further discussion at Template talk:Infobox_officeholder/Archive 20#RfC on inclusion of Monarch in Information Boxes on NI politicians I have removed the monarch field, since the monarch is nothing to do with the dFM of Northern Ireland, you will find no mention of the monarch in the Good Friday Agreement for example. FDW777 (talk) 08:49, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the British monarch from the infoboxes of the rest of the deputy First Ministers & First Ministers of Northern Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 16:24, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I had not noticed the field being added to those. FDW777 (talk) 21:36, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, I've replaced Vice President of Sinn Fein, with Deputy Leader of Sinn Fein, per consistency with her predecessors in that party position. GoodDay (talk) 01:34, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

She's Vice President. See the references already cited in the article, and this. Any article using "deputy leader" should be amended. FDW777 (talk) 08:29, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Then that would mean that the Leaders of Sinn Fein, would need to be changed to Presidents of Sinn Fein. GoodDay (talk) 14:21, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What are you talking about? Why should I "See the other dFM bios & the FM bios. They don't use 'Vice President' or 'President'"? Vice President of Sinn Féin is an internal Sinn Féin position, independent of dFM and FM. FDW777 (talk) 14:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Pardon me, I meant the bios of the other leaders & deputy leaders of Sinn Fein. Example: Mary Lou McDonald. -- GoodDay (talk) 14:33, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"President: Mary Lou McDonald" and "Vice President: Michelle O'Neill". Please change this, and other articles you have changed, back to the correct terms of "Vice President" and "President". And as I stated at 08:29, "Any article using "deputy leader" should be amended". The key word being "amended", not used as a reason to introduce incorrect terminology in other articles. FDW777 (talk) 14:42, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'll change them all to President of Sinn Fein & Vice President of Sinn Fein. GoodDay (talk) 14:53, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the opening sentence, rather than saying she served as deputy first minister 'since June 2021 and previously from 2020 to 2021', because of how short that period when she lost her position was, it should say 'since 2020', but with a note saying that she briefly lost the position from 14-17 june 2021

Semi-protected edit request on 11 May 2022

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Michelle O’Neill is the elected First Minister of Northern Ireland after the 9th May 2022 elections. Previously DUP (Democratic unionist party) had power over Northern Ireland however this year Sinn Fein has surpassed DUP and as a result Michelle O’Neill is now First minister of Northern Ireland whilst no Deputy first minister has been determined as of yet. 2A00:23C8:6F89:A801:348A:6348:4284:852E (talk) 09:33, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done Please provide a reliable source that supports your change. Note that the source should clearly state that she is the First Minister. --RegentsPark (comment) 13:15, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

First Minister designate?

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If an election is called, as the NI Secretary has hinted he might do, is Michelle O'Neill still to be considered First Minister Designate during the election period? And, even if there's no election and no Executive is formed, is she to be considered First Minister Designate for the duration of the Assembly? Some WP:RS, such as the Belfast Telegraph piece cited in the First Minister designate section, explicitly give her that title, but things are dragging on a bit at this point, and I question whether the title "First Minister-designate of Northern Ireland" should appear in such a prominent place as the infobox. schetm (talk) 16:00, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

At this point, it doesn't look like anybody is about to become First Minister of Northern Ireland, anytime soon. GoodDay (talk) 23:43, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Number of children

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The infobox says she has 2 children. I count 3 reading the section Personal life (1 as 16 years old and 2 with Paddy O'Neill). Shouldn't the infobox say 3? Dipsacus fullonum (talk) 09:04, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is unclear which children Paddy O'Neill is the father of, he may well be the father of the child O'Neill had aged 16. According to the Irish Times, she has two children. Kathleen's bike (talk) 00:48, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fermoy/Tyrone

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Can we provide at least some small shred of information about that move. 109.146.93.6 (talk) 13:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality

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What is Michelle O'Neill's nationality? Is she Irish, British (Northern Irish) or both? Did she acquire Northern Irish citizenship although she was born in the Republic of Ireland? AideDésintéressée (talk) 13:32, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Michelle O'Neill's family are from Northern Ireland and she just happened to be born in Fermoy. People in Northern Ireland can hold British or Irish Citizenship (A result of the Good Friday Agreement) as their sole identity but they can also be both British and Irish, many identify as Irish because they live on the island of Ireland and Irish culture and customs predate The Irish Partition by 1000s of years, and many identify as British because the province of Ulster was planted by Scottish and English settlers throughout the 1600s to spread protestant faiths to the Catholic native Irish. The settlers professed allegiance to the English Crown and so they kept an attachment to their protestant faith and their roots and the native Irish did the same with their Catholic faith and their roots too as Gaelic clans. Many descendents of the settlers have kept their allegiance to the crown ever since and want to stay in union with Britain, they are called loyalists. And many of the native
rish have kept their allegiance to their isl, their culture and their faith just like their brothers across the border in the Republic and they are called Nationalists and they want Ireland to unite again after 103 years of separation and be one nation again. nd 78.16.137.92 (talk) 00:21, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • native Irish and also allegiance to their island.
78.16.137.92 (talk) 00:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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