Talk:President of Sinn Féin

Vice Presidents

The table of Vice Presidents has several dates wrong for the pre-1917 party, especially the "None (1908–1911)". Only Tom Kelly and Jennie Wyse Power are correct at the moment. The correct dates, according to Richard Davis, Arthur Griffith and Non-Violent Sinn Féin, pp. 173–6, are:

Arthur Griffith: 1905–1911 (so there should be no "none" for 1908-11)

John Sweetman: 1905–1908

Bulmer Hobson: 1908–1910

Tom Kelly: 1910–unknown

Jennie Wyse Power: 1911–unknown

I can't do tables. I would be grateful if someone who can do them would fix this. Scolaire (talk) 14:14, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Done! Spleodrach (talk) 19:49, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Spleodrach, for doing that. Scolaire (talk) 09:36, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

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Leader in Northern Ireland Assembly

This section, and the related articles contradict each other. This article has Gerry Adams in the role from 1 July 1998 to 7 December 2010, followed by Michelle O'Neill in the role from 23 January 2017. For some reason Martin McGuinness has been left out, despite O'Neill succeeding him. "Why not just add McGuiunness" I'm sure some of you are thinking, and that is a good question. Both the Gerry Adams article and the Martin McGuinness article state that McGuinness took over from Adams on 8 May 2007, which is plausible since it would make sense that when McGuinness became deputy First Minister he became the leader of Sinn Féin in the Assembly. However it's equally plausible that Adams remained in the position until 2010 when he left the Assembly, to avoid the unusual situation where the president of the party was subordinate to McGuinness. Other than O'Neill taking over from McGuinness, none of the start/end dates for other people have references at present. Due to the apparent lack of a formal title I am struggling to find references, can anyone shed any light on this? What should we do in this article, and the related ones, if the dates cannot be referenced? FDW777 (talk) 09:00, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

I think the question we need to be asking is, did anybody ever actually hold that title? Gerry Adams was leader of Sinn Féin and a member of the Assembly between 1998 and 2010. Martin McGuinness was deputy First Minister in the Assembly from 2007 to 2017. I don't remember either of them referring to themselves or being referred to in the media or books as "Leader in the Assembly". There were discussions on Michelle O'Neill at Talk:Sinn Féin here and here. The bottom line was that, at least up to November 2017, Sinn Féin had no such title on their website. It is neither obligatory nor necessary for parties to designate a "Leader in the Assembly". It is handy for news media and Wikipedia articles, but in the absence of reliable sources, it is OR by definition. The choice is then between deleting the table altogether, and keeping it per WP:IAR and using what "would make sense" or some other criterion. Scolaire (talk) 13:31, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

For comparison, Seamus Mallon's article says he was deputy leader of the SDLP from 1979 to 2001 and deputy First Minister from 1998 to 2001, during which time John Hume was party leader. It makes no mention of "Leader in the Assembly". The SDLP article has a "Deputy leader" table but, again, makes no mention of "Leader in the Assembly", let alone have a table for it. Scolaire (talk) 14:23, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

And here's another interesting fact: when this aricle was created on 4 June 2014, the "Leader in Northern Ireland Assembly" was not Martin McGuinness but Raymond McCartney. No citation, needless to say, but it remained untouched until 24 January 2017, when Michelle O'Neill was elected "leader in the North" (Irish Times), or "leader in the province" (The Guardian), translated by some as "leader in the Stormont parliament" (The Guardian). --Scolaire (talk) 15:12, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for you reply. It does appear Wikipedia has invented a position that did not verifiably existing prior to January 2017, or possibly incorrectly merged two separate positions (assuming the information about Raymond McCartney was ever correct to begin with). I have to say I don't understand the logic behind the objections to Sinn Féin's chosen name. This isn't a case of other parties having a "Leader of [insert party name] in the Northern Ireland Assembly" and Sinn Féin choosing to be difficult and using a different name, because as you point out there's no requirement for any party to have a leader in the Assembly. Therefore, as it's a position created by Sinn Féin, the only sensible option if we are to include it is to accurately report the name of the position - "leader in the North". This has been used by the BBC, Guardian, Irish News, Belfast Telegraph, Irish Times, (UK) Times, and I'm sure plenty of others if I bothered to look after the first page of results on Google. That some news organisations choose to obfuscate by using "leader in the [insert alternate name]" instead shouldn't have any bearing, if Sinn Féin have a position called "leader in the North" then that's what the position is called. Whether she was the first, second or third is open to debate however. In the Sinn Féin article confirming her appointment she talks about "following in the footsteps of a political giant in Martin McGuinness", and some news organisations have apparently thought this means he was the previous "leader in the North". So I would have no objections to her being listed as the first, or the second with Martin McGuinness listed as the first (only on the condition that his start date isn't included, as there are two equally plausible start dates with no hard evidence for either). I see three possible solutions to the problem, if anyone else has any other suggestions feel free to add them.

1. The position is described as 'Leader in the North', or 'leader in the North' if that is preferred. Further discussion can take place as to who this label applies to.
2. The position is described as some other term, if 'the North' as Sinn Féin's actual name for the position isn't acceptable. As above, further discussion can take place as to who this label applies to.
3. We just sidestep the problem entirely by leaving it out

I can't agree to 2 at all, since it's not our place to say Sinn Féin's name is incorrect. 1 or 3 would be equally acceptable, probably leaning more towards 3 as a way of avoiding lengthy arguments now and in the future. FDW777 (talk) 16:39, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

I believe I have discovered the Raymond McCartney situation. He held, or holds, the position of Assembly Group Leader, a position previously held by Conor Murphy and John O'Dowd. Trying to discover dates when any of those peoples' terms began and ended seems like an impossible task however, so I'm not suggesting adding that position to this article. It does not appear to be a position used by other parties with the exception of the UUP, strangely I can find that Danny Kennedy is their deputy Assembly group leader but I can't find any sources saying who the actual group leader is/was. FDW777 (talk) 11:09, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Good detective work! So in 2008 Sinn Féin had a president who was an Assembly member, the deputy First Minister, and an Assembly Group Leader, who were three different people. I think that that makes the title "Leader in the Assembly" useless. The last mention of Assembly Group Leader is on this page, which Google dates as 1 April 2016. The first mention of "leader in Stormont" is 23 January 2017. Martin McGuinness was never called either during his time as an MLA. Since February 2018 Michelle O'Neill is referred to as Sinn Féin vice-president, rather than leader in the North, the Assembly or anything else. The table should be scrapped, as it's impossible to put any sort of accurate information on it. I'd recommend opening a discussion at WT:IE before making any changes to the McGuinness, O'Neill or any other related article. Scolaire (talk) 13:30, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Discussion now moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland#Proposals regarding various Sinn Féin related articles. Thank you. FDW777 (talk) 16:18, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Following the discussion here consensus is to change this article to remove mentions of the "Leader in Northern Ireland Assembly" position. FDW777 (talk) 08:55, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

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What to do with this paragraph?

There is a paragraph in the background section beginning "To date, only one of the fourteen leaders—Éamon de Valera—has held public office while serving as leader". Since it refers to 14 leaders, it was apparently written before Mary Lou McDonald became president. Given the 14th president, Gerry Adams, has until recently been an MP or a TD since 1983 (excluding 1992-1997) you would have to wonder if it was written before 1983 as well. Obviously "public office" =/= "head of state" or similar, since it refers to de Valera holding public office while being president of Sinn Féin. Should the paragraph be deleted entirely, or reworked to include the missing presidents who have held public office? FDW777 (talk) 20:21, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

I have always assumed that "public office" does equal head of state or similar. De Valera was president of the Dáil and President of the Irish Republic while he was president of Sinn Féin. No other president – including Adams – has even been a government minister. Scolaire (talk) 23:41, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

That's plausible, although if that's the case I would prefer the paragraph to be amended to remove or change the following sentences of "Griffith, who stepped down as president in 1917, was elected MP in the House of Commons in a by-election in 1918; De Valera, who succeeded him, had been elected as an MP in a by-election in 1917. Neither took his seat, as per the party's abstentionist policy. Both were elected in the 1918 general election and were involved in the creation of the First Dáil". Talking about holding public office, or not in the case of Griffith, then immediately talking about them being MPs tends to suggest a non-head of state meaning.

The tables in the Presidents section also seem skewed towards a non-head of state meaning, since they constantly emphasise the "Constituency" aspect of each president. In de Valera's case, it mentions all his MP/TD details and that he was leader of FF, but doesn't mention he was president of the Dáil and President of the Irish Republic. FDW777 (talk) 23:51, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

The article was created as a mirror of e.g. Leader of the Conservative Party (UK), where the leader is always a member of parliament – indeed, must be a member of parliament to be eligible for party leader. Sinn Féin has never been organised like that, not least because for so much of its existence it refused to sit in any legislative body, and most of the time did not even stand for election. It follows that the tables in a "leader of" article are not suitable for this article. The Constituency column should be removed from the tables. The whole "Electoral history" section, with its long list of Éamon de Valeras and Gerry Adams's, should also go. Scolaire (talk) 11:32, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Amended. Anything objectionable, feel free to amend further. FDW777 (talk) 16:49, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

I've removed the "Electoral history" section. The "Background" section is still a mish-mash, part history, part powers, part general stuff about the modern party, but I don't feel up to fixing it right now. Scolaire (talk) 18:59, 18 January 2020 (UTC)