Talk:Metal production in Ukraine

This article was nominated for deletion on 13 June 2010 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

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Science Low‑importance

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Recommending deletion

Although I have removed the article adjective "the" from three instances of "the Ukraine" in which it did not belong, I still do not understand the article as a whole and am incapable of bringing it up to Wikipedia standards. If there are no editors available with competence to sufficiently improve this article, I would recommend its deletion.--Fartherred (talk) 00:17, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The [Metallurgy of the Ukraine] article was apparently created by an editor with access to information about the topic but little knowledge of Wikipedia policy for citations or style and insufficient knowledge of the English language. If there were editors to come forward with sufficient access to sources and knowledge, this article might be saved. It has not happened so far, and it seems a reasonable time to nominate this article for deletion. If at a later time someone can make reasonable contributions on this topic, it would be reasonable to start from an empty edit window.

I feel sorry for editors who show enthusiasm for contributing but are unable to meet Wikipedia quality standards, but the quality of Wikipedia should be upheld. There is the possibility of improving skills and asking for help from other editors. --Fartherred (talk) 16:57, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was moving through the articles off the Ukraine portal starting from 1 and working through but only got as far as A

I need to find an easier way of finding articles that are up for deletion from the Ukraine lists...

Anyway I have Userifyed it for now in case it gets deleted

Chaosdruid (talk) 13:33, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have learned a lesson from nominating [[Metallurgy of Ukraine]] for deletion. That is that there is plenty of time to work on alternatives to nominating articles for deletion. I left comments on this talk page concerning deletion, but that was insufficient. I should have thought of people that I might notify if nominating for deletion, and consulted with them beforehand instead. There are many people concerned with Ukrainian concerns listed in the revision history of Portal:Ukraine. If I would have properly consulted more experienced editors concerned with Ukraine, the nomination for deletion never would have happened and people would not have had their schedules disrupted. --Fartherred (talk) 05:19, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, never mind. Finding the right group of editors or precisely one editor who is willing and able to pick up one of 2,000,000 stubs - usually it just does not work. Even if you know the person in advance, he/she might be busy elsewhere, have other plans etc. Don't overestimate the role of wikiprojects, too. In the end, if a hopeless stub or a machine-translate riddle is deleted - no big deal. East of Borschov (talk) 09:59, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Battery recycling

Anyone have any details on the battery recycling "industry" in Ukraine ?

I know that 5 years ago we set up recycling points throughout the DWP and the batteries were sent to Ukraine which was quoted as one of the major players in the battery recycling business

Chaosdruid (talk) 01:05, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

History section

I have asked for someone with expert knowledge of the older civilisations to come and have a look towards helping clarify the importance of archaeological finds and how widespread smetling etc were between 3000 and 400 BC

The problems have been research - it is taking a long time for me to find sources and I think they might help with that matter.

I will try and get on to the rest tomorrow and Monday - my Internet provider has had to call out two seperate engineers over the last three days as the line keeps failing . It is much more stable now but I keep losing long edits which was getting frustrating

Hopefully things will have calmed down by then and I can get back to doing some serious work on the article.

Chaosdruid (talk) 01:10, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Peculiar article title

Read Metallurgy and then look at the content of this article. Metallurgy is the study, the science of metals, not the industry surrounding the extraction (etc) of metals. "Metallurgy of Ukraine" is simply peculiar, probably created by language barrier. Metallurgy is not heavy industry as the article asserts. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 20:06, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

From my point of view as I am doing the history part the article is titled correctly - although maybe should have been titled History of metallurgy in Ukraine but when we include the up-to-date section that negates the "History of" part of the title leaving us back to where we started.

At the moment it should perhaps be titled what though? It includes all metals both found and worked on in Ukraine. "Metal deposits and metal working and the history of metallurgy of the Ukraine" is one that I cannot really define a shorter title for lol

So we left it as it is. I appreciate that metallurgy is the group of sciences that cover netals and their compunds and the processes of refining and owrking wioth those metals and their compounds and the article does resemble that to a large extent. Chaosdruid (talk) 22:01, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure. What I do know is that the current title is peculiar. Well, no, it's incorrect. Part of the article is about extraction if minerals, part is refining of metals form the minerals, part is about manufacturing with metals. None of this is the science of metallurgy.

Perhaps this means that each element needs a separate and smaller article, each with a correct title. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 22:38, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was using the general term and trying to keep in line with other articles on the subject such as Metallurgy

and [1] [2]

Metallurgy - The science of metals; their extraction from ores, purification and alloying, heat treatment, and working.

This article is the general subject, and from that each larger subject would have it's own page if it so warranted one.

Chaosdruid (talk) 23:05, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But your working title is not correct. It is not in line with the article on Metallurgy, nor is it correct with respect to the dictionary definition. This has to change. The title is meaningless. Metallurgy is a global topic, a science, a discipline, a degree course. It is not the overall descriptive word for everything from mining to manufacture. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 23:35, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Try this: Metal production in Ukraine. It is not perfect, and the introduction paragraph needs to change, but it is much more what the article is about that the current title. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 23:43, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have made that change. It reflects the article content more accurately. I appreciate that I have done this as a bold move and that you may disagree. If you do I suggest we revert the move and take this to requested moves, asking for a better title. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 23:48, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly what do you think gave you the right to move the page in the middle of a discussion ?? - you certainly do not have consensus and have not even approached any of the other interested editors. You have decided that your definition of metallurgy is correct - even though it is an extremely narrow version of that definition

Metallurgy during the Copper Age in Europe:Extractive metallurgy:Roman metallurgy and the others I have already given are perfect examples of me trying to keep inline. More inmportantly this article deals with the history of the Ukrainiaan metallurgy (as shown in the other historical articles), through to the actual amounts produced from those extractive processes.

Please revert immediately - You turn up less than four hours ago and already you have shown me that you are not the sort of person to listen to others. I neither agreed with your definiton nor your "bold" moving of the page which I clearly stated I was against until a title could be agreed on

Chaosdruid (talk) 00:08, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The same right as you have to maintain a wholly incorrect title. YOu may revert this if you choose. But it will be to the wring title. The article is about metal production. If you can find a better title then go for it. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 07:08, 4 July 2010 (UTC)I have rethought this. I see no point in revert and counter revert, so I have thrown this open to a wider group of editors here, something that should meet the article's needs. I was not wholly awake before, as you can see from my abortive edits to the article itself. I will set up a new section to reach consensus on the article title Fiddle Faddle (talk) 07:49, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have also logged the request for consensus on Wikiproject Ukraine Fiddle Faddle (talk) 08:15, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tables of production - decimal or thousands marker?

It's not entirely obvious in the data tables whether the commas are the European decimal marker, or the rest of the world's thousands marker. Having just saved a couple of edits migrating the "," to the "." I realised that the ambiguity affected my certainty, so reverted those changes. But they need to be handled, and handled by someone with access to the base data tables.

For that reason I am marking each table with {{clarify}}, which should stay until the marker can be clarified Fiddle Faddle (talk) 07:32, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus for article title

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed renaming of the article. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section below. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have been asked, as an uninvolved administrator, to look at this discussion, assess consensus, and close the discussion. Since there have now been no contributions to the discussion for several days it seems that this is a suitable time to do so. In the discussion there is a clear consensus that the present title "Metal production in Ukraine" is preferable to the proposed return to "Metallurgy of Ukraine", with only one dissenting voice. Whatever may be the case in other languages, in English "metal production" will normally be understood as referring to the whole process, including mining etc, whereas "metallurgy" has a much more restricted meaning. Since this is English Wikipedia, it is only how the words are likely to be understood in English that is relevant. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:33, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Editors have been asked to come here to comment on and reach consensus on the title of this article. The current title of Metal production in Ukraine is imperfect and the result of a disputed bold move. The prior title was Metallurgy of Ukraine, also imperfect. Consensus should be reached on the correct title regardless of the prior and current titles. Please can we achieve this here. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 07:52, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since I made the bold move, I need to state my rationale here, and my current support for Metal production in Ukraine. The article, which has a (potentially) substantial and (certainly) expanding history section, deals with mineral reserves, mineral extraction, metal refining, and metal production. I chose this title as embracing all those different facets. The prior title was (so far as I can determine) a simple translation from the Ukrainian Wikipedia, and, for me, simply did not fit the article. Metallurgy is the science behind metal production, not the heavy industrial process itself, nor the geology and mineralogy which deal with mineral deposits and reserves.. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 08:02, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Fiddle Faddle. "Metallurgy" is not a term of production, but of science in contemporary English. It's the equivalent of saying "Chemistry" rather than "Chemical production". --Taivo (talk) 12:24, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Metal production sounds like a narrower scope than "metallurgy as an industry". For example, does "metal production" include ore and ore concentrate production? Ferroalloy nuggets are not metals... East of Borschov 13:28, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

At any rate, if the new name stands than the content must be cleansed of all now redundant info. Keep smelters, remove ore, coke and refining. The original article might be an aberration of the Eastern view, where mining and smelting ore have always been regarded as the same industry, metallurgy. Unlike the American wikipedia convention which treats ore mining and ore smelting as two different industries. Note that removing the mining component of the industry automatically invalidates the statements made in the lead and the supporting sources: they clearly speak of the industry as a whole, not just the "metal production" component of it. East of Borschov 13:34, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) In normal American English (at least), "Metal production" includes ore, coke and refining. Indeed, in common usage it includes everything from mining up to (but not including) fabrication in a finished product (such as a car). I'm not sure what you think it is restricted to in common usage. Common usage is broad and I think you are restricting it too much. Ferroalloys definitely fall into the English language category of "Metal production". I think you're wrong about the title removing the mining component in common American usage. --Taivo (talk) 13:44, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But "metallurgy" in common usage does not include mining or production, but only the science of metals--it bears the same relationship as "chemistry" and "chemical production". If you think that mining isn't included in "metal production", then the title can be Mining and Metal Production in Ukraine. --Taivo (talk) 13:47, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see metal production as wider that metallurgy (to East of Borschov), but am by no means wedded to the title I express current support for. If we can determine a title which is suitably defining for the scope of the article I am for it. I do not, however, support the original title of Metallurgy of Ukraine for the same reasons expressed by Taivo. I was, once, a metallurgist. As such I was a scientist, not a production engineer. That backgroiund colours my opinion on the use of the term metallurgy. So far the article is not about metallurgy as I understand it. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 15:53, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section below. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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