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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

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Semi-protected edit request on 3 August 2017

Appearances for Arsenal 2016-17 Compare to https://www.arsenal.com/first-team/statistics Change League apps from 31 to 33 Change Cup apps from 2 to 3 Change Season total from 41 to 44 Change Arsenal total from 158 to 161 Change Career total from 464 to 467

This will also bring it in sync with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arsenal_F.C._players Holsn (talk) 23:25, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Not done: It seems the numbers that are already here are reliable for now. If you can possibly find another site that says this, please provide it, or if you think I made a mistake, please escalate the issue to WP:FOOTY. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 03:50, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
Done now. Respondent was right to not do the edit as specified, because the figures were correct as of the date specified above the stats table. Problem was that it hadn't been updated to the end of the season, which I've now done. Hopefully correctly... Thanks both. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 06:36, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 23 July 2018

S.M.Tanim (talk) 20:18, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Hey!!Mr in Arsenal official website total Apps are 187+9 and Goals are 37.You can edit it now!! https://www.arsenal.com/arsenal/players/mesut-ozil

The infobox is for league statistics only. Kosack (talk) 20:20, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2018

Mesut Ozil had earned 92 caps for Germany. Iamagunner14 (talk) 04:37, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

What changes need to be made to the "international" table to bring it up-to-date? Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:41, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 23:25, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
@Iamagunner14: could you please address this help clarify your request? Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:28, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
Also note that those tables have their own criteria for what counts (regarding friendlies etc.)
It is also common for stats to be updated at the end of season etc. rather than after each game Jazi Zilber (talk) 17:25, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Tattoos

Ozil is heavily tattooed on his left arm. He has a lion and a flower on his left arm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5978fish (talk • contribs) 18:32, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Street

“Devrek is a district of the northern Turkish province of Zonguldak, which is famous for its hand-made wooden walking sticks. The town had renamed its main avenue after Mesut Özil following his successes in Germany. A large placard with Özil’s photo was also put up to show the avenue’s new name.” Turkish town to replace Mesut Özil’s German team photo with one alongside Erdoğan --Fabsy0066 (talk) 21:56, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

The street was named after him in 2012. [1][2] --Fabsy0066 (talk) 10:51, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 January 2019

change ozil's height given as 180 cm to 183 cm(6ft) according to source=https://www.dfb.de/datencenter/personen/mesut-oezil/spieler 182.185.64.180 (talk) 18:36, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

 Done. I updated it, with the new source. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:44, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Mm, why exactly would we consider the DFB a better source than the Premier League? Özil doesn't even play for the national team, anymore… Robby.is.on (talk) 22:46, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Why wouldn't we? And why would we assume an older reference to be more reliable than a newer one? Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:48, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Neither reference has a date but the Premier League one has this year's league stats. How did you establish the Premier League one is older? Robby.is.on (talk) 23:06, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
The time that it was supplied. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:18, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
Okay. The Premier League reference seems more up-to-date so I think it would make sense to change it back. Would you be fine with that? Robby.is.on (talk) 01:23, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
Let's ask the anon who made the request (or a third-party). Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:10, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Ozil

"One of the best players in the world"? A bias Arsenal fan must of put that in, the two sources are his former manager (Arsene Wenger) and team mate (Marco Reus) which are not reliable sources. The other source states "One of the best in the PREMIER LEAGUE" not in the world. 88.111.139.176 (talk) 13:41, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Would you like to challenge the claim or simply remove it? Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:33, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
You should remove it. This claim is rather subjective considering there are so many experts with a different opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.216.207.225 (talk) 11:47, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2019

5978fish (talk) 18:22, 15 December 2019 (UTC) i would like to edit — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5978fish (talk • contribs) 18:22, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Once you've successfully made useful edits, you will be able to edit. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:35, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2019

Can I please edit. 5978fish (talk) 18:24, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Once you've successfully made useful edits, you will be able to edit. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:35, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Tattoos

Ozil is heavily tattooed on his left arm. He also has a lion on his left arm and a flower. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5978fish (talk • contribs) 18:27, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Is this information encyclopedic?
Do you have any reliable sources for this information? Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:36, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 December 2019

82.27.55.187 (talk) 14:49, 29 December 2019 (UTC) i would like to edit
You can suggest edits on this talk page on the form "please change X to Y", citing a reliable source – Thjarkur (talk) 15:43, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2021

ozil is at fenerbahce 82.31.32.38 (talk) 19:12, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done I have seen no news sources to confirm a transfer. Feel free to supply one. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:26, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Fa cup 2019/20

Since he played vs Leeds in the fa cup, he was eligible for a winners medal and therefore it should be added to his honours list. OzilThings (talk) 09:57, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh yes good point.
I didn't find any sources until I went on the Soccerway website which includes the 2019–20 FA Cup trophy win on the list.
transfermarket also includes that honour but we don't use that as a reliable source.
Thanks. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 14:15, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Ya Gunners Ya

He coined the phrase. This should be included in the page. 1 43.239.79.220 (talk) 10:45, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Recent addition

A claim about Özil was added, "He later stated he regrets this decision", with four references supposedly supporting the claim. I ran the three written ones through Google Translate and not of them supports it (the fourth reference is a Youtube video from Özil's unveiling at Fenerbahçe so using it would be original research). In fact, Özil stated this month: "I would never say I have regretted playing for Germany." (Source) Please explain, @Adigabrek:. Robby.is.on (talk) 16:22, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

I didn't know about the German article, and didn't think the rules of original research are applying to this case. ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~Contact Circassia 16:42, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
@Adigabrek: Please explain why you think OR does not apply to the Youtube video and how you think the three articles support the claim. Robby.is.on (talk) 17:30, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the discussions on the ethnicity of Mesut Ozil

Dear @Walter Görlitz:,

Could you please elaborate on why I had been accused of being a Turkish nationalist by yourself without any exchange through a Talk page? Could you please provide your evidence on my nationality or political view on things? (I categorically refuse your allegation. As a proof of this -even though I believe I don't need to do-, I can mention few edits of mine revealing in disfavour of Turkish views on various things, such as improving the anti-Greek sentiment article or Kurds section in the anti-Turkish sentiment article/talk- and I had been preparing a new article on a Kurdish emirate. These are my counter evidences, which some of them can be verified, to your allegation.)

I was given a warning on my personal page (July 2021) and was accused of not giving "any valid reason for the removal in the edit summary" by you. I believe the edit summary of mine has been very concise, clear and lengthy enough to express itself (link). The motivation of this edit has been clear: the lack of verified evidence on this personality's ethnic background - and the existing sources' contradiction on the personality's own remarks on his ethnic background.

Could you please tell me what were the attempts of yours to verify any of these sources?

I believe you are definitely right claiming that this item has been attacked by Turkish nationalists (didn't know it). However, couldn't we think in the same vein that, the same item has been protected and bolstered by Kurdish nationalists at all costs despite this personality's various public and clear remarks on his ethnicity? "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - how do you monitor the validity of claims? Could you please indicate us, so that we can follow the same protocol? Or do you only use your gut feeling?

Should we consider that you had been trying to keep the article content in a way and only the way you deem appropriate despite legitimate scrutiny on these claims in question?

Looking forward to your feedback.

Thanks.

PS: Please note that I am more than happy to be proven incorrect in light of verified evidence - instead of relying on a forum-entry-level claim. 17kuti (talk) 23:10, 3 July 2021 (UTC) This part of the discussion has been moved to a separate subsection below: On the ethnicity of Mesut Ozil. 17kuti (talk) 23:53, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, but you do not have to ping me.
Why in the world would I have to come to this talk page to discuss whether you are or are not a Turkish nationalist? It has been primarily Turkish nationalists who have removed any mention of Özil's Kurdhish heritage. the warning template is generic. If you want, I can go an add a comment to it to indicate that you removed sourced content. While you gave a reason, it is not particularly valid. I know that Turkish and Kurdish nationalists see a distinction between being both Kurdish and Turkish, but the real world does not. Since we have clear sources that associate him with both, we use what they say, or at least said.
Thanks for doing the research. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:04, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
Why in the world would I have to come to this talk page to discuss whether you are or are not a Turkish nationalist? You have stated the following in your edit summary: "This removal of sourced content by Turkish nationalists have filed every previous time as well." This has been very clearly implying that I am (i.e. the person who removed the sourced(?) content) a nationalist of a Turkish sort with no supporting evidence. Therefore, naturally, I had decided to defend myself against baseless accusation and vilification.
If you want, I can go an add a comment to it to indicate that you removed sourced content. I think the article belongs to the community who created it; therefore, I don't see why I have to have an inclination to negotiate anything with another editor apart from carrying out discussions on the topic content.
While you gave a reason, it is not particularly valid. This is a premise without a supporting evidence. "Is not valid" based on what? According to which criteria - which protocol? An argument is an attempt to persuade someone of something, by giving reasons for accepting a particular conclusion as evident. The opposite of argument is an opinion. I think the relevant sentence of yours is only an opinion.
I know that Turkish and Kurdish nationalists see a distinction between being both Kurdish and Turkish, but the real world does not. I think this opinion has been very orientalist. This also reminded me also the entry Denial of Kurds by Turkey (three-to-four decades ago). Based on which evidence you stated that Kurdish and Turkish are known to be the same by the world? Could you please show your supporting evidence? I believe Kurdish people have every right, history, customs and language to distinct themselves from any neighbouring nation.
Since we have clear sources that associate him with both, we use what they say, or at least said. I think I have shown that the two disputed references are flawed; they have cyclic self referencing arising from editorial commentary and less-established outlets.
I will complete my study, sharing the line of thought of mine and verifiable evidence in this Talk page to get feedback from the community. And, based on community's consensus, I will move the distilled outcome from this Talk page to the main page. Meanwhile, I will apply for dispute resolution channels, wherever, however and whenever appropriate, to protect this article from, I believe, your forcible suppression of opposition and baseless accusations without any further study.
17kuti (talk) 08:23, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
The only accusation is WP:DUCK. Your actions of removal of anything having to do with Özil's Kurdish past are identical to other Turkish nationalists. Your actions on other pages (seen after this edit) imply a solid understanding of Turkish nationalism. If you're not a Turkish nationalist, you're doing a great job of impersonating one. Whether you are or are not a Turkish nationalist, removal of the content that links the subject to a Kurdish heritage based on a statement that does not logically exclude Kurdish heritage is inappropriate. I cannot change the edit summary, but the action is not appropriate. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:05, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
I am speechless that I have still being accused of a nationalist of any sort due to my scrutiny on the content and validity of two references being shared in this article. I categorically deny this personal accusation, and I put forward some of my edits as the supporting evidence.17kuti (talk) 15:23, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
Discussions on the resolution17kuti (talk) 19:37, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Sure. I'm amazed that you took this to ANI, but I still do not understand why you slandered the content as "Kurdification attempts". I also do not understand why you cannot see that someone can have Kurdish and Turkish heritage simultaneously. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:14, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
I'm amazed that you took this to ANI. I believed other honourable editors could observe the conversation better than myself, who could be blinded with biases. We are all human after all.
why you slandered the content, please read the last paragraph I wrote it to the honourable editor Woodroar as an explanation. Please also note that such a statement will never happen again as I have reiterated this point inside the ANI entry.
I also do not understand why you cannot see that someone can have Kurdish and Turkish heritage simultaneously. I do not remember anywhere I recall that I made such a statement or I imply such a thought, I'm afraid. Could you please quote where I have made such a statement? I believe such a thought would be very contradictory and shameful to me since I am one of those dual-heritage people (cannot prove it here, though - that's why I have personal allergy against nationalism, and that's why I try to work on some controversial items in Wikipedia by trying to look at both people's perspective, so that these people can come closer to each other - kind of peace operation). However, the main problem here is the two arguably unreliable sources are being kept regarding a living person despite some of the rules on Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons are clear, e.g. contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page.
Also, please note that, as I mentioned this before in the discussion below: I am more than happy to be proven incorrect with reliable resources, i.e. reliable in a sense that Wikipedia has various clear definitions. I also started to think that these claims might have some chronological importance even though, in my opinion, their claims are incorrect. I think I will aim for a balance in my concluding remarks after completing my research on this topic fully - and will wait the community's feedback (including yourself). However, I would like to put this item a bit at a distance for some time, and disengage by following this content-dispute resolution item Wikipedia:Dispute resolution.17kuti (talk) 07:23, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
You do not need to make a statement to imply it. Quite simply, when you stated that there were "Kurdification attempts" and at the same time stated that his ""I will always be Turkish" comment precluded the possibility that he had any Kurdish heritage, you made it clear that the two could not coexist. That's not contentious to most, but it is contentious a certain group of nationalists (or worse). Walter Görlitz (talk) 12:54, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
you made it clear that the two could not coexist. I think this interpretation of yours is a very strained and far-fetched one. I think I literally implied thereat that the two sources' claims could not coexist at the same time because they were 180 degrees opposite to each other (yet one is low-quality in terms of any standards, and the other one is high quality and exact due to the person's own words). If I would write there: "he will always be Turkish" as my comment, you could be right in your interpretation. As a dual-heritage person, I must again deny your assumptions and the line of reasoning of yours. After disengaging the topic, I will present the research outcomes of mine; hence the content matter is priority. For this reason, I must let you to feel free to reinterpret my remarks from now on - my explanations to date I deem are fine and elaborate, in my humble opinion. I presume we will be in contact again at the end of this research attempt. Till then, I would like to thank the honourable editors again - and wish you a very pleasant experience of Wikipediaing in the future.17kuti (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
My interpretation is spot-on. You literally wrote "these early Kurdification attempts of this personality has failed due to his public remarks, e.g. 'I will always be Turkish' (2015)" did you not? How would you interpret the removal of these so-called "Kurdification attempts" paired in the same sentence with the "I will always be Turkish" comment? The only way I can see it is that being Turkish excludes one from being anything else. Your response supports the claim, yet you try to refute it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:29, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
As mentioned before, I must let you to feel free to reinterpret my remarks from now on since I do not want to repeat my elaboration given in here and in the ANI. I need to focus on the content after the disengage, which I really need to do, rather than, I came to the conclusion that, teaching you honourable editor, as a PhD holder, the critical thinking along the way. Kind regards.17kuti (talk) 07:39, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
So now you're claiming to be too smart for me to understand what is obvious to anyone who sees it. No, sorry, you stated that because Özil made it clear that he was Turkish that he could not be Kurdish as well. Plain and simple. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:47, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
So now you're claiming to be too smart for me to understand
You see! You take the premise of mine or my sentence, and interpret it however way you deem appropriate the best serving to your premises as if I said or implied such a thing. :) Having a PhD has nothing and nothing to do with smartness (and I haven't even thought/suggested it above - none!), but is related to a years-long training to follow an algorithm to evaluate/scrutinise the information, and construct arguments out of the data (i.e. critical thinking) (and involves some extra grit and perseverance). I think you have been stuck in the very first steps of Graham's hierarchy of disagreement, not allowing me to disengage properly and focus on the content. I kindly suggest you to move on: I am only talking about the sources. Please put your efforts on finding a Wikipedia-standard-reliable source where Ozil states an ethnicity of his, apart from his statements regarding being a German and Turkish. So far, I couldn't find any reliable sources supporting in terms of any standards. I think you conceptualise that all these discussions are related to nationalists; but, no, I am afraid to reiterate this again: I see them they are only related to sources, where I believe you, honourable editor, defend the presence of a very unreliable set of sources in Wikipedia - kind of sources Wikipedia discourages and disallows to use- at all costs for one reason or another; and I believe I defend a very reliable set of sources - kind of sources Wikipedia encourages and allows to use. Plain and simple.17kuti (talk) 06:30, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
When I suggested that your edits were clearly inline with Turkish nationalism you took me to ANI. You've just clearly called my ignorant (at least in relationship to you). Seriously? Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:17, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
I haven't accused of anything and haven't you named of anything - please name defending the presence of the two very unreliable sources at all costs in Wikipedia (for one reason to another) however you like. Honourable editor, I think we failed to resolve the user conduct dispute here - please do not hesitate to bring this topic to ANI (as a separate item since the previous dispute has been solved by the admin, in my humble opinion) - it would be very healthy if we disengage and let the admins to settle the matter. I really would like to focus on the content, if you let me do. Kind regards BlueSisyphus (talk) 09:27, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
True. You have not accused me of anything. You've simply pointed to your PhD-level mind and by doing so have called me ignorant in comparison. WP:STICK time for you. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:50, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Training kit tweets vs. Official rosters.

I'm sorry that the Internet is a difficult thing for some teams to learn how to use, but Özil's official team roster, https://www.fenerbahce.org/branslar/futbolatakimi/oyuncular showed him using last season's kit number. It has been updated since. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:41, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 February 2022

AhmetY0797 (talk) 21:00, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

I want to update some informations on the page

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. RudolfRed (talk) 21:37, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Question about Removing Nominations

Hello, I noticed in the edit history that nominations for specific awards were removed from the player's honors and awards section. I was wondering why that was. I think the nominations are a relevant aspect of the player's career and should be kept. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Instantwatym (talk • contribs) 18:59, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Some award nominations are not important enough to be kept. Which are you missing? Robby.is.on (talk) 19:20, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
I noticed a revert in October where FIFPro World XI, UEFA Player of the Year, and Ballon d'or nominations were removed from the article. I think these are relevant accomplishments that should be kept. Instantwatym (talk) 17:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 May 2022

Higgins 2007 (talk) 08:58, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

West Germany

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 09:32, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't think he's captain of fenerbache, considering they've said they will never start him again.

Above 78.86.1.45 (talk) 17:35, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Have you a got a reliable source, for example a newspaper article, that states he's no longer captain? Wikipedia policy requires that content is verifiable; see Wikipedia:Verifiability. Robby.is.on (talk) 21:22, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2022

Change his age “33” to 34” EdenRidge67 (talk) 23:26, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Already done It automatically updates through template magic. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:00, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Add more individual accomplishments

In the 'Honours' tab under 'Individual', add the following statistics:

- Most assists in La Liga: 2011-12 [1]

- Most assists in Bundesliga: 2009-10 [2]

- Most assists in a Calender Year: 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013 [3]

- Most chances created in a Premier League season: 2015-16 [4]

- Most chances created in a Premier League game, done vs Sunderland (2017) [5] Zhasan8 (talk) 07:40, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: These are not honours, they are statistics. "Honours" refers to awards and similar explicit acknowledgements. Actualcpscm (talk) 18:43, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/206/Tournaments/4/Seasons/3004/Stages/5577/PlayerStatistics/Spain-LaLiga-2011-2012
  2. ^ https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/81/Tournaments/3/Seasons/1903/Stages/3181/PlayerStatistics/Germany-Bundesliga-2009-2010
  3. ^ https://fbref.com/en/players/16380240/Mesut-Ozil
  4. ^ https://thefootballfaithful.com/premier-league-players-most-chances-created-in-a-premier-league-season/
  5. ^ https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4514664/Arsenal-news-Mesut-Ozil-breaks-EPL-chance-creation-record.html

Status in football

He is widely regarded as one of the best attacking midfielders of his generation at least, maybe even ever. He was the quintessential #10 from 2008 till around 2017/2018

Plenty of players have that tag line - why doesn’t he? He deserves that recognition. 2A02:C7C:C46B:F900:FD3F:7186:106C:AC2E (talk) 21:17, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Ozil quitting football

I heard that Ozil had his contract terminated and said that he quitted football in some sources TheWikiUser100 (talk) 01:05, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

See the section above this one. We need WP:reliable sources. Goal.com isn't great and I haven't seen Özil's alleged retirement covered in more reliable media. Also, there hasn't been an official announcement either by Özil, his club or representatives of his. Maybe this will change tomorrow, we'll have to wait and see… Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 01:09, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2023

He retired February 3 2023 Jufjdka (talk) 17:29, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

@Jufjdka: I've seen rumours but is there a reliable source that reports this with certainty? Robby.is.on (talk) 17:37, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Lightoil (talk) 03:14, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 March 2023

Ozil retired on the 3rd of February and no one has changes this 2001:BB6:7BA0:A700:D992:AE1D:7CD:B2B7 (talk) 05:51, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

According to whom? I've yet to come across a WP:reliable source backing this claim. Kind regards, 08:52, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 13:48, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 March 2023

Mesut Ozil Is a retired German profesionalni player 46.188.178.243 (talk) 12:08, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:03, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 September 2023

Could you add this to external links {{Premier League player}} template missing ID and not present in Wikidata.? and his ID is: 4714 102.45.8.130 (talk) 17:27, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done ULPS (talk • contribs) 18:48, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Grey Wolves tattoo

Hi @Instantwatym:. I can accept that you take issue with specific citations but these outright removals of the tattoo controversy are not okay. If you perform one web search for "mesut özil graue wölfe tattoo" you'll find that this was covered by all kinds of very reliable media. I have restored the section with more reliable sourcing. We now have four citations: from Tagesspiegel, ZDF, Deutschlandfunk and Tagesschau. Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 16:02, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate you reaching out via this talk page message to discuss this issue but I dont think we will see eye to eye on this. In my opinion, citing a number of articles on a given topic or issue alone does not necessarily add merit to allegation or claim, if the content of the articles is questionable. These articles primarily discuss the history of the organization or go off on tangents about Ozils friendship with Recep Erdogan, all of which is irrelevant to determining whether he is actually associated with this organization. The only argument presented is a claim by a left wing MP (with a political agenda of his own) that Ozil is allegedly a member based on the resemblance of a tattoo. Also, given the amount of xenophobia and racism this player has been subjected to in Germany, German media outlets cant necessarily be considered impartial when it comes to him.
Nevertheless, if you want to keep this information in the article and present the accusation in an imprtial and unbiased manner then simply state the following:
"In July, 2023, Hakan Tas, a left wing Berlin MP, with an affliation to the PKK Kurdish Militant organization, accused Mesut Ozil of being a member of member of the far-right organization Grey Wolves, based on a percieved resemblance of a tattoo on the players chest to the symbol of the organization." Instantwatym (talk) 18:21, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
The only argument presented is a claim by a left wing MP (with a political agenda of his own) that Ozil is allegedly a member based on the resemblance of a tattoo. That is not true. Only the Berliner Zeitung article, which we no longer use, referred to Hakan Tas. Please have a look at the four citations we have now. Robby.is.on (talk) 18:32, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- Tagesspiegel - This article is behind a paywall so I cant comment on its contents.
- ZDF - Makes a claim about the percieved resemblance of the tattoo to the symbol of the oragnization. Same argument as Hakan Tas. Then the author makes a claim about supposed backlash for allegedly spreading the symbol. The proof of this backalsh being commentary for 1 political scientist and 1 tweet from 1 twitter user that shares the same opinions as the author and as Harkan Tas. This is all anecdotal. The author then goes off on a tangent about Ozil being a Turkish nationalist and his friendship with Recep Erdogan. Being a Turkish nationalist does not necessarily mean he is affliated with this ogranization. Its a nonsensical argument. Similarly, being friends with Recep Erdogan does not mean Ozil is affliated with this organization. Ozil is also friends with other political figures such as Angela Merkel, who has the level of affliation with Grey Wolves that Erdogan does (i.e., none). This article offers nothing of merit.
- Deustchlandfuk - Makes a claim about the percieved resemblance of the tattoo to the symbol of the oragnization. Same argument as Hakan Tas. Then the author writes about the history of the Greys Wolves as an organization and talks about how Erdogan serves Turkish nationalism. This article is barely about Ozil at all and most likely the worst source of the 4 (even though I havent looked a the contents of Tagesspiegel). The goal of these articles should be to provide some conrete evidence about Ozils affliation, which they dont.
- Tagesschau - Makes a claim about the percieved resemblance of the tattoo to the symbol of the oragnization. Same argument as Hakan Tas. Then the author provides a quote from the same political scientist that ZDF quoted. Again anecdotal. Then like the other articles goes on the history of Grey Wolves without providing any additional evidence on whether or not Ozil is affliated.
Based on my opinion (and it is just an opinion), these articles barely have anything of merit. I suppose the other way to present this information in the article is to say that:
In July 2023, a photo on Instagram was published showing a tattoo depicting a howling wolf on Özil's chest. A few domestic German news outlets, 1 left wing Berlin MP and 1 political scienstist, used to accuse him of being affliated with ultra right-wing ogranization Grey Wolves based on their percieved likeness of the tattoo to the Symbol of the Oraganization. His affliation was never confirmed and the news outlets covering the story primarily discussed his friendship with Recep Erdogan as a basis from him being a Turkish nationslist and thus likely a member of the Grey Wolves. Instantwatym (talk) 02:29, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
The current wording reflects reporting. Your suggested wording gets it wrong in a couple of ways:
  • It does not mention the "three crescent moons".
  • "A few domestic German news outlets" is inaccurate. It was all over German media. Some of these media cite political scientists and other experts but all clearly state that the three crescent moons and a howling wolf are symbols of the Grey Wolves.
  • "His affliation was never confirmed […]" is not in any of the sources.
Based on my opinion (and it is just an opinion), these articles barely have anything of merit. You're entitled to your opinion. But I don't think it's reasonable to discount all of German media because of xenophobia and racism this player has been subjected to in Germany. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:20, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
The reason for omitting three cescent moons was because the uninformed authors of these articles alleged that the three crescent moons (which are actually not present on the Grey Wolves symbol) are symbol of the Grey Wolves. The three crescent moons were present flags of the Ottomon Empire used between 1499-1517, as well as between 1517-1793. Similarly, the the Grey Wolf itself is a symbol of Turkic Mythology (even outlets reporting on the Grey Wolves organization mention the origins of the symbol [3]).
In modern times, they symbols have been hijacked and used in by nationalist movements. There is absolutely no way for the authors or anyone else to confirm whether Ozils tattoo references the Ottomon Empire and Turkic mythology or the Nationalist Movement Party and/or Grey Wolves. A reputable impartial source which actually exaimed his tattoo, as opposed to writing thinkpieces on Erdogan and Grey Wolves would have mentioned this information. This is why I questioned the quality of the sources and their bias/agenda. If the information is to be included than saying that a tattoo IS a symbol of the Grey Wolves is not appropriate. I will fix this eventually to present it in a more unbiased manner. Instantwatym (talk) 16:42, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
three crescent moons (which are actually not present on the Grey Wolves symbol) They are, however, part of the MHP's logo and the MHP is affiliated with the Grey Wolves.
This is why I questioned the quality of the sources and their bias/agenda. If the information is to be included than saying that a tattoo IS a symbol of the Grey Wolves is not appropriate. The sources I used are of very high quality. (If you're doubtful about that, feel free to ask for them to be checked at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard.) And our job as editors is to reflect the reporting of reliable sources. If the reliable sources which reported on the tattoos indeed got things wrong in this instance as you claim, that's a problem we have to live with. See Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. Robby.is.on (talk) 23:44, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
You acknowledge that the 3 crescent moons are not present in the Grey Wolves symbol, yet this is what is highlighted in all the sources included, without any mention of the MHP whatsoever (or about historical and cultural significance of crescent moons and grey wolves). The same way the misleading wording in this article explicitly states that the 3 crescent moons are symbols of the grey wolves despite not being so, without any mention of the MHP whatsoever. Its disingenuous and misleading in the extreme. And saying sources are of very high quality is subjective. There are no Wiki archives indicating that these sources have been deemed reliable or of high quality, only that they havent deemed unreliable as of yet. And given that all of them falsely claimed that the 3 crescent exist in an official logo of the Grey Wolves despite not being so, it should be fairly easy to classify them as unreliable. Instantwatym (talk) 17:11, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
all of them falsely claimed that the 3 crescent exists in an official logo of the Grey Wolves despite not being so. None of them did, actually. They claim that the three crescents and the howling wolf are symbols for the Grey Wolves. And as the Grey Wolves and the MHP belong together, that claim is plausible. it should be a fairly easy to classify them as unreliable. Nope. They don't suddenly become unreliable because one editor on Wikipedia makes that claim. Robby.is.on (talk) 17:35, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
- "They claim that the three crescents and the howling wolf are symbols for the Grey Wolves. And as the Grey Wolves and the MHP belong together, that claim is plausible. " Violation of WP:NOR. Not up to Wikipedia editors to fill in gaps and make original arguments about plausability. The authors claim that 3 crescents are symbols for the Grey Wolves, which is false.
- "Nope. They don't suddenly become unreliable because one editor on Wikipedia makes that claim." They have never been deemed reliable in the first place, irrespective of your personal opinion. If someone (me or anyone else) wants to make a case about them being unreliable, they are welcome to do so for other editors to discuss. Instantwatym (talk) 17:02, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Violation of WP:NOR. Not up to Wikipedia editors to fill in gaps and make original arguments about plausability. Most of your arguments in this discussion are original research. 🤷
If someone (me or anyone else) wants to make a case about them being unreliable, they are welcome to do so for other editors to discuss. I already pointed to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard above. Let me know when you start a discussion about the sources there. Robby.is.on (talk) 20:23, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Instantwatym, your edit summary comment niche opinions from unreliable sources has no basis in reality. The sources are generally reliable and anything but "niche". Again, if you think the sources are unsuitable, take it to the reliable source noticeboard. Robby.is.on (talk) 09:53, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
@Instantwatym: Three crescents are NOT symbols of the Grey Wolves. It is FALSE. Any source that publishes false claims can be assumed unreliable and it is undue weight. Your personal opinion does not trump half a dozen reliable sources. If you continue to remove reliably sourced content from the page, I will request admin intervention. Robby.is.on (talk) 19:04, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
You are more than welcome to involve an admin. I dont take issue with that. It would actually be helpful to have other editors weigh in on this dispute.
The language/text you are insiting on including in this article explicity states that the 3 crescents are symbols of the Grey Wolves which is false. The sources stating as such are publishing false information, hence why they are unreliable. A source stating a claim does not make it true. Even in this talk page disucssion, you have tried make a roundabout original argument to defend this false 3 crescents claim.
Ive tried to compromise on the language with you as well, by only including the factual information about the howling wolf being a symbol of the Grey Wolves and it being depicted in his tattoo. However, you are opposed to that too (based on the reverts) and are insisting on pushing a false narrative that 3 crescents are symbols of Grey Wolves.
Please cite this discussion and your unwilling to compromise on removing propaganda and false claims when submitting a request for admin intervention. Thanks. Instantwatym (talk) 20:11, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
The language/text you are insiting on including in this article explicity states that the 3 crescents are symbols of the Grey Wolves which is false. You have yet to provide any kind of source supporting that claim. With many German newspapers reporting on this, you'd think someone would have publicly called out the error if the German newspapers had got it completely wrong? By the way, Grey Wolves (organization) has "In 2022, Grey Wolves vandalized an Armenian genocide memorial in Brussels with three crescents, similar to the MHP logo." With the Grey Wolves being the MHP's paramilitary young wing, calling the three crescents a symbol for the Grey Wolves could been seen, if anything, as slightly imprecise, but certainly not outright false as you persistently claim. Robby.is.on (talk) 20:27, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Ozil assists record

UEFA Europa League top assist provider:2009-10

UEFA Champions League top assist provider:2010–11

La liga top assist provider:2010-11,2011-12,2012-13

Psrpen00 (talk) 13:19, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

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