Talk:Mesut Özil/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Best Bundesliga-player

Özil has been chosen to be the best Bundesliga-player of the first half of the season 2009-2010. Somebody should add this. My english is not the best, so I can't do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.89.233.145 (talk) 22:00, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Martin O Connor?

{{editsemiprotected}} eh, citation needed there bud. 86.45.130.239 (talk) 02:13, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

might want to address "Bayern Munich Schalke" while you're at it. 86.45.130.239 (talk) 02:15, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Done Thanks. Both problems were caused by old vandalism that was not properly repaired. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 09:14, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

why dosent he play for turkey their much better —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.130.109 (talk) 16:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Ozil is best of the best I like ozil —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.19.7.30 (talk) 17:01, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

He is not engaged to Anna Maria Lagerblom!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.230.4.89 (talk) 22:58, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

His official website states that he is single. "Familienstand: ledig " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.77.148.186 (talk) 14:58, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Eyes?

His eyes are rather prominent. Has he suffered from hyperthyroidism or something similar?AuntFlo (talk) 18:33, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Heritage

Turkish translation of the interview he has given to 11 Freuende: He is cited as saying, "soru: Türk pasaportunuzu geri verip ve Alman Milli takımında oynamaya karar aldınız,zor oldu mu? Mesut Özil: Ben Türkiye'ye sırtımı dönmedim,sade Alman Milli Takımında oynamaya karar verdim." 2) soru: Oyun tarzınızın ne kadarı Türk,ne kadarı Alman? Mesut Özil: Türk olan yanı tekniğim ve top kullanışım.Alman tarafı disiplin,kafa yapım,sürekli gaz verip oyundan kopmamam." http://ultras-istanbul.over-blog.de/article-mesut-ozil-roportaj-futbol-hislerim-turk--37879804.html That is enough to show that he had a Turkish passport. That is enough to call him Turkish descent since Turkish passport defines Turkishness in Turkey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.197.62 (talk) 03:23, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The article already says he is of Turkish descent so I'm not quite sure what you want. Regardless a blog is extremely unlikely to constitute a reliable source. Camw (talk) 03:50, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, maybe, you could provide the source where you got your information from. There is a lot of debate with regards to his nationality and many very conflicting rumors. From what I have researched, I have not seen a single interview where he actually says that he is a Turk or a Kurd.If there is, post a link so that we can end this discussion. Obviously the issue of his nationality is not more important that his excellent football ability but this is an important issue that has to be addressed. Milkmaidwarrior (talk) 05:52, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Mesut Özil is from Zonguldak. So he's not a Kurdish and the resource below is a fanatic Kurdish newsletter that has no value as a resource. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.249.173.173 (talk) 15:20, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Mesut Ozil has recently said "No I am not originally from Turkey, I am Kurdish and I am proud of being Kurdish" So I guess that means that we may have to change this on his page. It is not feasible to assume that he is of Turkish heritage just because that is what it says on his passport.Milkmaidwarrior (talk) 05:53, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

http://www.haberdiyarbakir.com/news_detail.php?id=35373

he just contributed about Özil's backround, it has not any connection with being Nationalist. Özil is Turkish-German player and yes it writes in his double-citizen passport.--Finn Diesel (talk) 01:50, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

This topic is already in discussion at WP:FOOTY. Please join the discussion there. --Jaellee (talk) 05:41, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

In this particular case, the reference provided is both reliable and detailed, so I think inclusion is okay. I would not be inclined to consider that the default position. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk

07:00, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Whoever removed kurdish descent part from introduction and personal life sections shall be accused of vandalism by Wikipedia. Someone please re-include it as soon as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tmhm (talk • contribs) 01:40, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Read MOS:BIO about not including heritage or ethnicity in the opening "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening". There is a line on ancestry in the personal life section, where it belongs. Please try to tone down the "terrorist" and "vandalism" claims, it doesn't help you make your point. Camw (talk) 01:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Manchester United

On 7th august 2010, it was reported that Manchester United manager, Sir Alex Ferguson, was present at Werder bremen's 5-1 defeat to Fulham, fueling speculation that a deal for the Germany International is imminent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.0.239.116 (talk) 10:48, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, but we don't include speculation or rumors. Once he has been signed and it is reported by a reliable source then it would be appropriate to add. Camw (talk) 10:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

New signing

While he has signed, until he's on the roster of Real Madrid, he should still be listed at his previous club. The most that the article should state now is that an agreement has been reached. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:57, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/en/First_Team/1193041476158/Plantilla/Squad.htm Number 26. Please stop deleting the information supplied by a WP:V source. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Mesut is not of "German" origin.

Mesut Özil is a German with a Turkish descent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.203.7.17 (talk) 01:02, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

The article already covers this in the personal life section. Camw (talk) 01:11, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

His nationality is German. That makes him of German origin. Just as I am of Canadian origin despite having German parents. His German citizenship is what FIFA recognizes. WP:MOSBIO indicates that "Ethnicity ... should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability" and since his ethnicity is not relevant to his notability, his ability to play football is, then it should be left out of the lede. It is mentioned in the personal life section which is sufficient. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:19, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Ozil's Number

Refer here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Real_Madrid_C.F.#Ozil_Number —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fatcowxlive (talk • contribs) 20:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The jersey numbers are updated now in the spanish site, here. He will wear 23. The english site is really out to date. XavierHD (talk) 21:01, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

German Messi?

I think Marko Marin is known as German Messi. Not sure about Özil.202.129.235.34 (talk) 09:51, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Take it up with http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/news/newsid=1265634/index.html --Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:39, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

More typos...

Lede: 'whose role he has inherited at Werder Bremen'.

Change to past tense someone.

Tiresome that I can't do it myself. --89.211.216.27 (talk) 19:34, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 187.15.77.156, 23 October 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} Özil has 11 games with Real Madrid, and 3 goals (Deportivo, Milan and Racing de Santander). And why the hell is this page protected? 187.15.77.156 (talk) 20:45, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi, i can't answer you why is this page protected, but about the caps and goals you have to know that the infobox (that big box in the right) only shows league statistics (he has 8 caps and 2 goals). If you want to see the complete statistics go down in the article and look the statistics box, there you'll see all the data of this season (11 games and 3 goals as you said). Understood? –HD ^{Ask, comment, talk!} 22:42, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Not done: per above. The page is semi-protected because of long-term IP vandalism. Protection will automatically be lifted on November 2, but based on the history it will shortly be reinstated. -Atmoz (talk) 23:50, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Goal vs Turkey

The whole source website for that looks pretty dubious to me: there's no information about how it is run and by whom. Plus, the news/blog/whatever entry comes from an author who's not listed on the authors page.

Then the entry claims he told Bild that he wanted to play for Turkey. What I found was an interview with Bild where he says: "I'm playing for Germany with all of my heart". And a press conference video where he claims that he never spoke to Terim personally and that he never considered playing for Turkey.

All in all, the blog/news entry fails reliable source criteria by far. I'm removing the paragraph as a whole. --Berntie (talk) 01:33, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be right. It's essentially a blog. Should have dug deeper. The fact that it was added by a pro-Turkish editor and had so much anti-Turkish sentiment except the one part that the editor picked out of the piece. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:57, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedbacks I will site a better source from this time ESPN Sports stating "Mesut Özil helped Germany to their third straight Euro 2012 qualifying win with a goal against his ancestors' nation in a 3-0 win at Berlin's Olympiastadion." Now if you can please return the entry and feel free to edit it a tune to your preference. Thank you. --fatcowxlive (talk) 02:04, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Personal life

The section said

Özil is a Muslim, and is known to recite the Qur'an before games.

That would be quite a feat, as the Qur'an comprises over 6,000 verses (ayat). The reference says

The son of Turkish guest workers, Ozil reads from the Koran before matches.

Maybe he recites while reading. In any case, I've changed the section to reflect the source material. --Thnidu (talk) 20:15, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Thnidu, I think you are not familiar with the use of Islamic cultural terms in English. Reading Quran does not necessarily mean reading the whole book. "Reciting the Quran" or "reading the Quran" implies reading excerpts from the Quranic verses from one's memory or from the book itself. This expression is so widely used that anybody who has done some literary research on Islamic norms or culture would understand it regardless of practicing the religion or not. I think the sentence "Özil is a Muslim, and is known to recite the Qur'an before games." has absolutely nothing wrong in it and gives us a valuable insight to Oezil's personal life. I have just noticed somebody deleted this sentence from this section and I say this is vandalism. Whoever has done this, should be accused of vandalism by Wikipedia. There is also a youtube video where Oezil is seemed to say verses before a game is starting and surely that could be labeled as reciting the Quran, something Oezil himself confirmed in numerous interviews.~gromell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.206.255.41 (talk) 19:21, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

The reference is extremely ambiguous, the reference does not link to the source, but quotes a secondary, Islamic source. I'm not sure what "numerous" interviews you're talking about, if they even exist - yet he is a Muslim, but thats as far as we should be willing to grant him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atwarwiththem (talk • contribs) 19:49, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what the fuss is about. How is the quote ambiguous? It states that he recites verses from the Quran before matches to help him focus. That's pretty precise. It's not as he's playing. It's not as he goes to bed. It's before the match. Are you wanting to know which verses he recites? Do they have to be the same every game-day? As for numerous: http://www.google.ca/search?q=Ozil+recites+Quran+matches+focus = 12900 hits. Pick a few. Wikipedia is fifth on that list, which is very odd. I never said there were numerous interviews, rather it's a frequently-repeated statement. It even came up in a feature of him during the CBC coverage of the World Cup this past summer. It could be from his publicist, the German national team's publicist, or some other source, but it's frequently repeated. One source indicates "Talking to the Berlin-based daily Der Tagesspiegel on Saturday, Ozil said, “I always do that before I go out (on the pitch). I pray and my team-mates know that they cannot talk to me during this brief period.” " Quick search on their site: http://www.tagesspiegel.de/sport/fussball-wm2010/ich-habe-nie-angst/1873174.html (how's your German?)

TAGESSPIEGEL: Ihre Art sich direkt vor einem Spiel zu konzentrieren ist es, Verse aus dem Koran leise vor sich hin zu sprechen.

MESUT ÖZIL: Das mache ich in der Kabine, bevor wir rausgehen. Ich bete dann und meine Mitspieler wissen schon, dass sie in dieser kurzen Zeit nicht mit mir reden können.

My translation

TAGESSPIEGEL: Your practice is immediately before a match to concentrate, to speak verses out of the Koran quietly to yourself.

MO: I do that in the cabin (dressing room?) before we go out. I pray then and my fellow players already know that during this short time that they cannot speak to me.

So again, what's the problem? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:15, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I just updated the section and removed the dubious tag. The quote was very clear that the source was Der Tagesspiegel. I'm not sure what the issue is. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:27, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

HİS ORİGİN

TURKİSH DESCENT NOT A GERMAN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.235.57.242 (talk) 07:59, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Since he is a footballer, the nationality listed is his FIFA-recognized nationality. Since he was born in Germany, that also makes him a German. Just because his great-grandfather was a Turk does not make him Turkish. Since your IP is from Turkey I suspect you don't agree with that. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:16, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Mesut Özil's nationality is relevant as his non-Germanic name raises immediate attention in the international football community as to where his roots belong to. Therefore I edited the wording, with appropriate reference, to "Turkish-German" to clarify the confusion. By the way, Walter, please assume good faith in commentors as the case would be no different for you with your German name. Thanks Tmhm (talk) 21:55, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I reverted the change based on FIFA and WP:MOSBIO. The body of the text deals with the issue and the lede is for his FIFA-designated nationality. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:23, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The WP:MOSBIO rule is a general guideline and as stated "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". In this case Ozil's heritage raised world wide attention due to his non-Germanic name and as a non-ethnic German his raising as a star attracted political awareness of the Germany's changing view of minorities (link) consequently contributing to his notability. As such that is not a restrict rule which can also be observed in the Dennis Aogo or Serdar Tasci articles. Hence I include it in the article. Tmhm (talk) 17:37, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Ozil's heritage has nothing to do with his ability to play football. There are many other German footballers who have a different nationality and it's not mentioned in their ledes. This also applies to footballers in England, France, the Netherlands, Spain, and other locations. It also applies to ice hockey players around the world as well. It's not alight against Özil's Turkish great-grandfather or his involvement the community. It's a simple policy. when you get the policy changed, feel free to apply the new policy here. Until that time we will not emphasize his ethnicity in the lede as per WP:MOSBIO since it is not relevant to the Ozil's notability as a football player. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:00, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

You are not deciding what determines Ozil's notability. I provided the relevant links. It is Mesut's own father who is a Turkish national not grand grandfather and he also owned a Turkish passport, please research topics before writing with self fabricated information. And please keep your anti-Turkish bias out of WP refraining from further reverting. Tmhm (talk) 18:07, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Walter is 100% correct in this assertation. Özil is a German footballer because he was born in Germany and plays for the German national team. That's it. It is perfectly acceptable to mention his Turkish heritage in a "Personal" section later in the article (or something similar), but WP:MOSBIO specifically forbids highlighting ethnicity or heritage in the lede unless it is of vital importance to the content of the article. In Özil's case, it's not. He's not notable for being an ethnic Turk. He's notable for being a footballer. --JonBroxton (talk) 18:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

His ability to play football is what makes him notable. If he came to prominence because he played for the Turkish national football team and then became famous for that he would be a Turkish footballer. However, we are simply stating his FIFA-recognized nationality in the lede. It's not a slight against Turkey, nor is it a "anti-Turkish hatred". --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I believe he's an ethnic Kurd as well, who don't see themselves as Turks. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Nobodies heritage directly determines his notability, you can not see an article on WP like "XXX is a French, period." Every people who gets an article on WP gets it for their work or an event they were involved in. Ethnicity is sometimes a contributing factor to notability which is the case with Mesut, check the NYT article. Tmhm (talk) 18:14, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Which is why there is a section in the "Personal life" section that currently reads "Özil is a third-generation member of the Turkish community in Germany". The following paragraph indicates his Muslim faith, and that too is not directly related to his notability which is why the lede doesn't emphasize it. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:17, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

The New York Times piece entitled "Özil the German"? What would you like us to see there other than the fact the Times calls him a German and it isn't until the second paragraph until it mentions he is of Turkish heritage, and that only after it mentions his faith? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:19, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, except he's not notable for being an ethnic Turk who does charitable work. He's primarily notable for being a footballer, and in a football context he's German, not Turkish, because he plays for the German national team. Information about things he does away from football should go in a "personal life" section, and that would be where his ethnic Turkish heritage can be discussed at length. --JonBroxton (talk) 18:20, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok let me break it into smaller parts. "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability" which means "Ethnicity or sexuality may be emphasized in the opening if it is relevant to the subject's notability" which is the case here. I guess that should clarify. Tmhm (talk) 18:21, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

How is it relevant? Özil has an article because he is a footballer. In a football context, he is German. He was born in Germany and plays for the German national team. Where his parents and grandparents were born has absolutely no bearing on HIM. Would you claim that Pablo Mastroeni is Argentine, even though he plays for the USA, or that John Barnes was Jamaican, even though he played for England? --JonBroxton (talk) 18:25, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I must agree with Walter and Jon. Özil is notable for playing soccer for Real Madrid and the German National Team, not for the nationality of his ancestors. Favonian (talk) 18:25, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

There's no need to be condescending. He's a football player. If he had become an automobile engineer we would not be having this debate. He's famous for being a football player. The fact that he was born in Germany and chose to represent Germany at the world-level makes him a German footballer. The nationality of his parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents is not what makes him notable. Had he been killed because of his nationality, not that I wish that on anyone, not the least millions of Armenians, and that is what brought him to prominence then we must emphasize his ethnicity. However that's not the case with the football player who is the subject of this article. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:26, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I must agree with Walter, with Favonian and with JonBroxton. It is perfectly fine to mention in the article that he has Turkish ancestry, but in the introduction we should go with "German". He's born in Germany, he is a German citizen and he plays for the German national team. Tmhm's argument doesn't seem to hold according to WP:MOSBIO. If we accepted Tmhm's argument, every famous person who has some foreign ancestry would need to have that mentioned in the introduction, and that is the very reason why we have WP:MOSBIO. There is nothing that makes Özil's case special from all other famous persons with some foreign ancestry.Jeppiz (talk) 12:26, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Just wondering, how come only in football, German people of Turkish origin are called only 'German' while others like Kool Savas, Eko Fresh, Cem Özdemir etcetera are referred to as "a German ______ of Turkish descent" in the first sentence and have "Turkey" as origin? It seems only logical to me to call Mesut Özil (and also Mehmet Scholl) "a German football player of Turkish descent". EthemD (talk) 06:47, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

They shouldn't. WP:MOSBIO specifically forbids making reference to ethnicity or heritage in the lead unless it is of vital importance to the subject - i.e. the reason they are notable is BECAUSE of their ethnicity or heritage. Ozil, Kool Savas, Eko Fresh, Cem Özdemir are not notable because they are Turkish. They are notable for other reasons - playing football, or rapping, or politics. All those people you listed should have their ethnicity removed from the lead, and maybe added later in a 'personal life' section or something. --JonBroxton (talk) 07:22, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Ozil had Turkish passport until 2007 when he was notable, and was born in Turkey. http://www.german-times.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36885&Itemid=25 He also stated numerous times that his "Turkishness" gives him his feeling for the ball; therefore his job, what he is notable about. Moreover he recently received German Bambi award in "successful integration" category, an award given to those with non-Germanic roots living in Germany. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101112/en_nm/us_bambi_2 He is one of the most notable German Turks alive. His Turkish root is therefore relevant to his notability and shall be mentioned in the opening. Karfiol (talk) 13:49, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

For the umpteenth time, Özil is not notable because he is part-Turkish, he is notable because he is a FOOTBALLER. Ask yourself this question: if Özil was not part-Turkish, would be still be notable? The answer is yes, because he is still an international footballer. Would Özil still be notable if he was not a footballer? No. So his Turkish heritage has no bearing on whether he is notable or not. This, combined with WP:MOSBIO, plus the fact that he plays for the German and not the Turkish national team, means that his ethnicity will NOT be mentioned in the opening. --JonBroxton (talk) 17:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Well-said. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:20, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I do not understand this attitude, if you can't keep it calm please refrain from posting. As per WP:MOSBIO In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national (according to each nationality law of the countries), or was a citizen when the person became notable. Mesut Ozil WAS a Turkish citizen when he was notable(until 2007). Moreover, noone becomes notable solely due to his/her nationality, in such case every living person would get a bio on WP please think for a moment what rules stand for. Mesut Ozil was a Turkish citizen when he became notable, his roots contributed to his notability with the publication and awards he received(i.e.Bambi award - successfully integrated non-German) hence it is deeply relevant and WILL be mentioned. Karfiol (talk) 18:23, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any anger. What I do see is that he not notable for being of Turkish ancestry. he is notable for playing football. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:01, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

With such logic he is not notable for being a German either, but being a footballer; feel free to remove that as well, next time. Karfiol (talk) 19:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Also your source indicates that he relinquished his Turkish passport. FIFA recognises him as German. Since he is no longer Turkish, and is notable only for his football ability, there really isn't any reason to mention it other than in the Personal life section. He is a German national and is recognized as such in the lede as per WP:MOSBIO. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:21, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:MOSBIO "or was a citizen when the person became notable." He was a Turkish citizen during his career before he became notable. 2x2=4. The rule is very clear. I don't know why you want to censor this obvious remark. Please stop. Thanks Karfiol (talk) 19:23, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

"Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Özil's Turkishness is NOT relevant to his notability, because he's notable for being a footballer, not for being part-Turkish. --JonBroxton (talk) 20:52, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

There's no censorship going on. The article clearly states his Turkish ancestry. We are simply discussing the lede.

3. Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity);

1.In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national (according to each nationality law of the countries), or was a citizen when the person became notable.

2.Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.

We could discuss this further, but your best option would be to discuss it at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies) as the Wikipedia football project is in agreement that hist Turkish heritage should not be emphasized in the opening paragraph as per WP:MOSBIO 3.2 as it is not part of his notability (see all of the comments above). --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:35, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

"In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national (according to each nationality law of the countries), or was a citizen when the person became notable." Was he notable in 2007? Yes. Was he a Turkish citizen in 2007? Yes. Ozil was a dual German & Turkish citizen when he became notable for a long time, if you want to censor Turkish citizenship part German citizenship would as well be censored which would be absurd. Furthermore Özil's Turkishness IS relevant to his notability as mentioned above, he even received awards thanks to his non-Germanic roots which undoubtedly contributes to his notability (see WP:Notability_(people)#Any_biography - The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times.). We could further discuss this up, but you can discuss it in Wikipedia talk:MOSBIO if you want to delete citizenship remarks all together from opening sections as you can not single out one citizenship if subject had more than one when he became notable. If you get others to agree to remove that rule in the WP:MOSBIO Talk page, it's fine. As long as it's there, there is nothing unclear about whether it should be included or not. Hope that clears it up. Karfiol (talk) 21:35, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

No it doesn't clear anything up. He's not notable for being German. He's not notable for being Turkish. He's notable for being a footballer. He's notable for playing for a Bundesliga club. He's notable for being the highlight of the German national efforts at the World Cup. The fact that he's Turkish play not importance, particularly since he didn't carry that citizenship when he did either of those things. In matters of nationality, we would have to defer to FIFA, not his passport. If you don't like the answer we're offering, please take it up with Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies) as this is not one of "most modern-day cases", he's an exception. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:07, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

It does clear it up. 1- was a citizen when the person became notable." Was he notable in 2007? Yes 2- his non-Germanic roots which undoubtedly contributes to his notability (see WP:Notability_(people)#Any_biography - The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times.) You say he's notable for playing a Bundesliga club, true as per Wikipedia:Notability_(sports)#Association_football (Players who have appeared, and managers who have managed, in a fully-professional league will generally be regarded as notable) if you checked his history he was playing for a Bundesliga club(Shalke 04) when he was a Turkish citizen(2006-07). Please double check your arguements next time. Since you just now suggested he was notable as a Turkish citizen Bundesliga player I guess this are sky clear now. Oh by the way, you are not answering me here nor are you the authority, we were just discussing here. If you do not like the rules regarding MOSBIO and Notability, take it up to the relevant pages, but since you accepted his notability I guess that won't be needed. Anyway, as long as rules are there, this is a non-arguement. Thanks Karfiol (talk) 22:16, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

It really doesn't. Since you refuse to discuss this and are simply pushing your points, I am taking this to he biography group. I have no problems removing all nationality from the opening paragraph, but this also means any mention of his nationality in the lede should be removed to avoid confusing readers. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:25, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Well sure, the current rules are clear. I do not refuse to discuss, as a matter of fact you were the doing it by assuming the authority role(If you don't like the answer we're offering). If the biography group prefers to change the rules with regards to the opening section, the nationalities may well be removed, no disputes there. Until they do, we can use the wording which complies with the current rules. Karfiol (talk) 22:36, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The authority is clear: he is a football player. The discussion above from members of the football project indicate that we consider his notability is not for his nationality or ethnicity, neither Turkish or German, but for being a footballer. I suspect that if we mention that he carried a Turkish passport we should also indicate that he gave it up, but there's not a lot of room in the lede. As for his German nationality, that's what FIFA recognizes and since he's a footballer, they're the ones who are the authority, not me. I have changed the article to remove all reference to nationality in the lede. I have also requested the group who works on WP:MOSBIO comment here as well, something you didn't want to do for some reason.

My preference, we'd all be better when nationalism sees its last day. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:50, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

True that - especially if people took their own advice we would not be having these discussions in the first place. I'll keep an eye on the Biography and Notability pages; if they are kept intact, the article needs to comply with the current rules. Karfiol (talk) 02:34, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The current rules are that he's German. I don't know why he would want to be called a Turk any longer after what happened when Germany played a match there and he was booed when introduced, but I don't want to turn this talk page into a forum. The article will be what consensus makes it. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:46, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The current rules clearly point that he being notable when he was a Turkish citizen and him having received an award(notability) due to his roots entitle his former nationality/roots need to be mentioned in the opening section. You made the Bundesliga remark yourself, that pretty much ended any disagreement there was. I don't see where I didn't want anyone to comment on this, perhaps you were reading someone else as if it's me. Current rules aren't dubious, in fact; very clear. This issue is settled according to the WP rules but if you would like to go on with it, please do I would like to find out how Mesut Ozil wasn't notable as a professional Bundesliga player until 2007 or the fact that he received a reputable award related to his roots does not contribute anything at all to his notability. Thank you Karfiol (talk) 02:34, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. You've made this point before. The "rules" also indicate that "Ethnicity ... should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability" and that is the case with most. This is an except. Unless you have a different point to make, it would be best if you stopped taking-up space repeating the same arguments and allow other editors to comment so consensus may be reached. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:16, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

You haven't been putting any arguments at all, moreover nationality is a different concept than ethnicity, plus the fact that he received an award due to his ethnicity disregards your only argument if you check the wording "generally" in the line you keep pasting. Since you accepted he was notable as a Bundesliga player in 2007 yourself, it would be best if you don't post anymore at all for the sake of having the last word, so others can comment as well. Karfiol (talk) 13:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

mesut = german with kurdish and turkish descent

ye psl change ..mesuts mother is kurdish and vater turkish.

greets ali —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.224.180.67 (talk) 10:56, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

No. There's enough discussion about this above to explain the reasons for why no mention of nationality will be made. Without a citation as to parental lineage, no mention of his mother's Kurdish background will be made. The next request will be to mention his Armenian great grandmother or something. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:09, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Height...

Real Madrid has updated all profile pages of every single player in the club on December 2010. Only the spanish site, the english doesn't get major updates since 2005 or something like that. In the last update, says that he's 1.83 tall. To me, it's a more accurate information. That edit war about his height it's impressively annoying.

http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/es/1193040475259/1330011842639/jugador/Jugador/Ozil.htm –HD ^{Ask, comment, talk!} 04:39, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

That's too bad because at http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/en/1193041476158/1330012508587/jugador/Jugador/Ozil.htm it indicates 1.81 and since he joined the club earlier this year, I'd have to conclude that 2005 is not an accurate date. When we compare http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/84775/mesut-%C3%B6zil?cc=5901 (1.81 m) then we have two sources. However, it's not clear where that stat comes from. Unfortunately, the German national team doesn't clarify the matter http://www.dfb.de/index.php?id=509967&action=showPlayer&player=oezil_mesut&lang=E&cHash=76e1fb1d39 1.82 m. Sky Sports backs that: http://www.skysports.com/football/player/0,19754,11888_344501,00.html --Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:31, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Don't get the 2005 thing too serious, Walter. Anyway, that english profile in realmadrid.com and soccernet probably uses his data of his past profile on Werder Bremen. He took a medical test when he signed with R. Madrid and they updated the spanish profile on december, that's what i believe. Now, the other sources seems to be recent and accurate too, even his profile at the 2010 world cup shows 1.82 m http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/southafrica2010/players/player=305036/index.html . I'm sure he was 1.81... Aged 19 or 20. –HD ^{Ask, comment, talk!} 15:36, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Height also changes over the course of a day (that's really quite serious). The spinal column can contract by more than 2 mm in the course of a day. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:02, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Interesting... So, he's like an human spring? haha well, better we stay with the 1.81 height, maybe that stops the edits. 2 cm won't make him different. –HD ^{Ask, comment, talk!} 18:15, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually, we all are human springs. Our spinal columns expand as we sleep while we're horizontal and compress during waking hours when we're vertical. The change is up to half an inch a day. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:43, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Ya... That explains the variety of sizes. I still trust in the last update, but who knows the circunstances. Thank you! –HD ^{Ask, comment, talk!} 21:44, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Kit number

Now we're back to an edit war over his number. http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/es/1193040475259/Plantilla/1193040475259.htm indicates his 23. http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/en/1193041476158/Plantilla/1193041476158.htm indicates 23. Not sure where this 10 is coming from. It should be referenced. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:33, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I believe it comes from here http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/intligen/startseite/547918/artikel_Mahamadou-Diarra-zum-AS-Monaco-und-Mesut-Oezil-bekommt-die-10.html but then i did a rapid search in the spanish press and says that the numbers can't be changed in the middle of the season, according to the LFP rules http://www.marca.com/2011/01/28/futbol/equipos/real_madrid/1296245279.html anyway, if this is true we should wait untill it's on realmadrid.com, at least.–HD ^{Ask, comment, talk!} 00:52, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

If that's the source, it's being mis-read. The number 10 is being used figuratively. I've known since Maradona, that 10 was the number for the star player. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:25, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Concerning the latest stats update

Isn't that an assist? --Berntie (talk) 23:09, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I've seen you updating the caps of the last few games, so, let me thank you first. And that can't be considered an assist, Benzema runs with the ball over 30 m? An assist it's usually counted if the scorer make less than two or three touches to the ball, with minimal range of movement... However, this isn't that specific as i write in here. Transfermarkt.de in fact counted that as an assist, maybe your doubt came from there? They also count penalties as assists for the player who caused them... Don't go crazy too much about this. –HD ^{Ask, comment, talk!} 23:31, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

However, this isn't that specific as i write in here. Yep, that's the problem. As long as there are specific numbers in the article there must also be a specific definition of what consitutes an assist. Otherwise the numbers are useless.

I suggest you try to include a definition of what constitutes an assist in the article, so that the numbers make sense. --Berntie (talk) 00:10, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I'll take it a step further, if it isn't an official league statistic, or you can't give a similar reference, it can't be counted. It's essentially WP:OR otherwise. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:28, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Yep. My references are ESPN Soccernet for La Liga, UEFA.com for Champions and "my sight" for Copa del Rey, based on what I wrote before. Also! realmadrid.com has a complete statistics section in every profile (in the Spanish site, at least). Sometimes I check there too. But I have no problem if we have to take off his assists. Players like Xavi (one of the best giving assists) doesn't have a record about it in his table because of this... They're hard to count, subjective.–HD ^{Ask, comment, talk!} 13:00, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd also have no problem if we remove the assists. --Berntie (talk) 19:33, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Addressing Mesut Özil's nationality, again

I've just looked at all the other German national players and they're all addressed as "German Footballer" except Mesut Özil who is only referred to as "Footballer" even tough he is German and plays for the German national team. Oddly enough every time I try to fix this mistake someone (possibly a moderator?) keeps reverting it back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.150.238.184 (talk) 21:09, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

You speak? How nice. Please see the discussion at Talk:Mesut_Özil/Archive_1. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:11, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I've read the talk page. Did you even bother reading what I changed to the article or did you just automatically revert it? Because my change was perfectly justified as per Wikipedia guidlines. I gave Mesut Özil the exact same lede (by which I mean "German footballer") that EVERY other German footballer has on their wikipedia article. Mind you telling me what makes Mesut Özil so special that he deserves a different lede which doesn't acknowledge that he's German?

I read that you're not signing your articles. I read what you did write. I also told you to read the discussion. It was decided not to emphasize nationality because there is dispute as to whether he was simply German or a dual citizen when he came to prominence. Hence, no nationality will be mentioned in the opening paragraph of the lede. That is consensus. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:22, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Clearly you must see that there is a grave inconsistency here. There are hundreds of footballers with mixed upbringings, dual-citizenships, you name it. But of all these footballers Mesut Özil appears to be the ONLY one that I can find that isn't addressed by the nationality he plays for (Germany in this case). As an example, please look at the Wikipedia articles of Jérôme Boateng and Lewis Holtby. Both of these players hold dual-citizenships (Ghana and England) but are clearly referred to as "German footballers" in their lede. It's really mind boggling why this should even be an issue. He plays for Germany, he is German, hence his nationality is clearly relevant. Even more so when considering that his rise to fame came after playing for Germany in the World Cup. Also note that I am in no way trying to stir up anything or am doing this because of some external motivation. I am just trying to fix an obvious mistake in this article. (If past wikipedia edits from this IP address are the reason for your mistrust please accept my apology, this computer is shared by multiple users.) 84.150.238.184 (talk) 22:07, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

You appear to be looking at a different article than I am. The lede states that he plays for the German national team. Aside from that, the lede reflects consensus. If you want to achieve a new one, feel free to. The last one was reached by a Turkish editor who was later banned for being a sock puppet. No one else sided with him. His point was that if his German heritage is mentioned in the lede then so must he Turkish since he carried both passports when he became a professional. I didn't agree and believe that it should have simply reflected he country of birth. In cases like this, all reference to nationality should be removed.

Hyphened nationality (Estonian-Laotian for example) should also be avoided. I saw that you implemented that in a few articles, but won't change those. Feel free to see WP:MOSBIO for additional issues to discuss. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:22, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

How does it reflect a consensus when every other article dealing with footballers (no matter if they're dual-national or of mixed ethnicities) clearly states a nationality in the lede? In this case, the Mesut Özil article is a noticeable exception because it does not state Mesut Özil's nationality in the lede. Seeing how every other Wikipedia article on footballers follows the consensus that their nationality should be included in their lede, I only see it as logical that the same should be applied to the Mesut Özil article. This isn't even a debate about whether his nationality is truly relevant to him being a footballer, but about applying the same Wikipedia standard that is seen in every other footballer article to this article as well. 84.150.238.184 (talk) 22:31, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Consensus for this article. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:34, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Walter is 100% correct in his assertation. The problem with this article is that Özil became a magnet for Turkish nationalism by editors who seemed convinced that Özil's Turkishness was a vitally important part of the main paragraph - despite the fact that Özil was born in Germany, and plays for the German national team. WP:MOSBIO expressly states that issues regarding ethnicity should be avoided in article leads unless it is of vital importance to the article - for example is the person is famous BECAUSE of his ethnicity, rather than what he does. Because Özil is famous for being a footballer, and not for being part-Turkish, then his Turkish heritage is irrelevant. In the end, it was felt that it was easier on the sanity of all the editors is Özil's natioanlity was simply removed from the lead, in favor of a statement saying that he plays for the German national team, which is incontrovertibly true. JonBroxton (talk) 22:35, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

This isn't about his Turkish roots but simply about following the same formula used in every other Wikipedia article, which clearly states the nationality of the person the article is about. I have yet to find another article of a footballer in which his nationality is omitted. This, I believe, creates an unwanted inconsistency. Also, I've just checked out the article in a few other languages (namely German, Italian, French, and Spanish) and all of them include his nationality in his lede and refer to him as a "German footballer", leaving English as the only language of the article that is omitting his nationality. I hope you're seeing what I'm getting at here, this isn't about Mesut Özil but about following protocol. 84.150.238.184 (talk) 22:46, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I entirely agree with you. I just hope you're prepared the barrage of pointless Turkish nationalism and petty edit-wars with POV-pushers that will inevitably follow if his German nationality is reinstated. JonBroxton (talk) 23:30, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I see your point, but I don't agree that articles should be altered just to prevent persistent vandalism. The German article even lists a source that states he went through a denaturalization process in 2007 and gave up his Turkish citizenship, meaning that he currently only holds German citizenship. And seeing how "German footballer" only refers to his nationality by law, and not his ethnicity, I believe it to be perfectly justified. 84.150.200.87 (talk) 23:48, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Consensus has not been reached to add his German nationality back into the article. Until it is, I will be forced to undo any attempts to change the nationality.

I don't disagree the Özil's is a German, but I too don't want this article to be a lightning-rod for nationalism from Turks, Kurds, or Germans. However, the point has been made that Özil was a dual-citizen at the time of his start in the Bundesliga and as such both nationalities would have to be highlighted. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:42, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I think it would be wiser to simply adapt the existing consensus shown in all of the other languages of this article, which address Mesut Özil as a "German footballer". As previously mentioned, the English article is currently the only one omitting his nationality. I also do not see how this could be seen as a particular "lightning-rod" for nationalists, seeing how he currently only has one legal nationality (German) which needs to be mentioned nonetheless in the lede of this article. His ethnicity and background already have a place in the "Personal Life" section. This is really more about article standards than about Mesut Özil. It is customary that every Wikipedia article about a person features their nationality in the lede. 84.150.200.87 (talk) 02:28, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

You're preaching to the converted. The arguments you are using to convince Walter and I are the arguments *we* used against the over-zealous Turks. We agree with you. It should say "German footballer" and nothing else. But, as Walter also rightly said, the consensus was not to show ANY nationality in order to avoid edit-wars, and to not give the nationalists any fuel for their fire. It is technically incorrect, but it's also much easier this way. JonBroxton (talk) 02:53, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Couldn't have said it better Jon. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:55, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I think the issue of "over-zealous nationalists" is blown somewhat out of proportions, seeing how even the Turkish article on Mesut Özil mentions his German nationality. The way I see it by removing his nationality you would basically cave into the demands of the vandals, even though they are clearly against Wikipedia article guidelines. (WP:MOSBIO Part 3 of "Opening paragraph" states it should contain "Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity);" and also states that "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." leaving his nationality (German) as the only relevant piece of information that should be included as the context. As of now, it just sticks out like a sore thumb that his nationality is missing, and seeing how he is one of the more renown and high profile footballers, the article should reflect that in the form of quality, especially absence of errors (errors as in his nationality missing from the Opening paragraph). 84.150.200.87 (talk) 12:42, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, personally, I also want to make a standard. If being born in Germany make people German, then we should use this for everyone. For example, Nuri and Hamit aren't "less" German just because they chose the Turkish national team. It says "The child of a Turkish father or a Turkish mother is a Turk." in Constitution of Turkey. So at the same time, Mesut is not "less" Turkish. It's just strange how Wikipedia uses it right now. --Bobcats 23 (talk) 08:53, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

That's not the point here though. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 09:23, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure it is the point or not, but the thing I was trying to say is if you wanna add nationality into the first sentence, it must be "Turkish-German" or "German-Turkish". Besides if you're not gonna say anything about this, then I'm adding the categories "Turkish footballers", "Turkish Muslims" etc. to the article. --Bobcats 23 (talk) 09:42, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Or you could fix those other articles.

I'm not sure why he has some of those categories, but he's obviously a German footballer because he plays for the German national team. Adding the category of Turkish footballer would likely face challenges as would any other Turkish categories that would be added since those are not historical categories, they're the subject's present status and Özil has relinquished his Turkish passport. The most you can say about him now is that he is a German person of Turkish descent, and that category has already been applied. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 09:50, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

He is a footballer, and being born in Germany (or just "being" German) has a lot with it. I accept that. But it is nothing with his Turkishness. He was born in Germany, he plays for the German national team as a footballer (it's his job), his parents are Turkish: if you think he is 67% German and 33% Turkish because of these, you are wrong. It's getting a lil bit of math here but he is 50% Turkish and 50% German in my opinion. Besides, if he didn't choose the German team but choose the Turkish one, he would be a Turkish footballer, and it's all about a choice, you're saying, right? --Bobcats 23 (talk) 10:25, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

No, it's not about choice. He didn't choose to be born. Nor did he choose where he was to be born. Nor did he choose which national team to represent since only one offered. The only choice he made was to relinquish his Turkish passport.

Again, it's not about choice though. Please read the discussion in the archive to see what choices we editors made. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:45, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Oezil's nationality

Still omitted even tough every other footballer article mentions their subjects nationality. It needs to be clearly stated that he is in fact a German footballer. Can we notify some mods who are actually willing to fix this mistake? 84.150.181.153 (talk) 11:39, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Universal affirmatives are easy to disprove. All one must do is to find one other article, or subject as you put it, to disprove your claim. Here's mine: Ersan Gülüm. Anyone have others? I'm sure that there are more.

The fact that most articles include nationality doesn't change the fact that not all do or that some don't. Each article is unique and must be taken on its own merits. The merits with this article is that Özil is a target for Turkish nationals who want to push their agenda and that's not acceptable. Hence, the complete removal of nationality. See HİS ORİGİN for the history and consensus to remove discussion of both nationality and ethnicity from the lede. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:13, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

No mention of Ozils nationality?

For some reason it just says he's a footballer instead of the usual "German footballer". Every other footballer playing for Germany is mentioned as being German. Why is Ozil singled out? According to his wikipedia article, he even won a "Bambi award for being a prime example of successful integration into German society." So why are only Schweinsteiger, Klose, etc. refered to as German? Is he not allowed to be called "German" because of his Turkish roots? That sounds fairly racist if you ask me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.150.207.129 (talk) 23:50, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Because of interference last fall by Turkish nationalists, it has been decided that no mention of nationality nor ethnicity will be made in the lede. Feel free to look at the discussions here and in the archives. And Özil is not singled-out. There are several other articles that do not include nationality in the lede. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:57, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I find it odd that you are complaining about nationality being missing in this article when you have been systematically removing nationality from other football player articles much like this edit.

Anon's IP it appears that this is the same person who has been making edits for some time. Anon is a dial-up user with Deutsche Telekom and is based in Munich. Other recent IPs are 84.150.178.242, 84.150.180.3, 84.150.180.75, 84.150.181.153, 84.150.187.156, 84.150.194.104, 84.150.196.18, 84.150.198.211, 84.150.199.126, 84.150.200.87, 84.150.203.96 and 84.150.238.184. You have had the same complaint and have been given the same answer every time. It's time to find a way to change consensus or to clear off. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:18, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Consensus on Oezil's nationality

Can we get a "new" consensus on the mentioning of his nationality? The fact that his nationality is being hidden from this article is still a huge eyesore that should be fixed. Wayne Rooney's article lists him as a "British footballer", Landon Donovan is listed as "American", Kaká is listed as "Brazilian", Fernando Torres is listed as "Spanish", and Lukas Podolski is listed as "German". Why can't Mesuit Oezil be referred to as "German"? 84.150.207.107 (talk) 21:38, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

He is a part of the category, "German people of Turkish descent"

So why not "a German footballer of Turkish descent" in the opening paragraph? Oh, and in order to compare him to Rooney, you would have to assume Irish to English is fully analogous to Turkish to German which is obviously not true. Also that he won an award for successfully integrating to Germany is all the more reason to mention his foreign (in this case, Turkish) roots. --Mttll (talk) 01:17, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Because MOS:BIO specifically discourages ethnicity being mentioned in the opening except in limited cases where it is relevant to the subjects notability. Özil's notability is derived from him being a footballer, not because he has Turkish ancestry, even if he won an award related to it. Camw (talk) 11:20, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

It's not like there are people who can be Turkish by profession, you know. Can you give some examples of people who are notable due to their Turkish ancestry? --Mttll (talk) 19:35, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Not off the top of my head, no - that is why the guideline says that it should not normally be included, because there are very few examples of people where it is appropriate (although I am no expert on famous people with Turkish ancestry). One non-Turkish example that might meet the rule is someone like Rosa Parks who has her African-American ethnicity mentioned because of her notability being derived from her role in the civil rights movement for that group of people. Camw (talk) 02:03, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Wouldn't "African-American" be a subset of "American"? That's an even weaker analogy than Rooney. An almost perfect analogy would be Ibrahimovic, the "Swedish footballer of Bosnian and Croatian descent". --Mttll (talk) 03:13, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

African-American is not a nationality like American, it is an ethnicity. I'm not quite sure what your argument is here, MOS:BIO is quite clear and all I provided was an example of a very limited case where ethnicity is allowed to be in the opening under the guidelines. If other articles go against MOS:BIO then they should be fixed, but we will not be going against the guidelines on this article. Camw (talk) 06:08, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 81.226.236.158, 17 July 2011

please change 23 to 10 because he had that number yesterday against LA Galaxy and that is going to be his new number.

81.226.236.158 (talk) 12:32, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - He wore 10 last summer as well but the only source we have is the club web site. It may be slow in updating his number, but Wikipedia only uses reliable sources. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:11, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

In fact http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/es/First_Team/1193041476158/Plantilla/Squad.htm and http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/en/First_Team/1193041476158/Plantilla/Squad.htm both list Özil as 23, and Lassana Diarra as wearing 10. Just because he wore 10 in L.A. does not mean he'll wear it all season long. A similar thing happened last season shortly after his signing. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:43, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Walter, you keep saying that Özil wore #10 last summer is incorrect. He wore #26 in the two preseason games he played in and Lass wore #10! Are you telling me that Madrid started two #10 in two straight matches?! Raul17 (talk) 04:24, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Please read my comments. I said a similar thing happened last summer not that he wore 10 last summer. After you corrected me on the RM page, I have not stated that he wore 10. The point, though, is that his pre-season number may not be the same. With that said, it may very well be his regular season kit number. I'd prefer 8 for him though as that's his kit number for the German national side. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:06, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I thought that you meant he wore #10. The point was that he wore #26 during the last preseason and the questions arised because he was wearing a reserve team number and I was signed for the first team. At the time, none of the of the "regulars" were expected to move nor did anyone wanted to leave. Since there was no free number, Madrid took advantage of transfer closing after the opening of the season (and they might do the same again with the window closing after two games into the season.) But why did you allow Khedira's change to stand? Why you hatin' on Özil? ; ) Raul17 (talk) 00:45, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, he wore a number 23 as can be [seen here] (notice the comment) and 19 [here]. I'm sorry I thought it was 10 though. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:54, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, he wore 19 the first game of the season and then 23 the second until the end of the season. But he wore 26 in his only two preseason appearances. Raul17 (talk) 04:12, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I just saw this today. Maybe can help you http://www.marca.com/2011/07/23/futbol/equipos/real_madrid/1311402937.html –HD ^{Ask, comment, talk!} 18:11, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks XavierHD. It doesn't indicate that it's a permanent switch though, although it seems to imply that it is. Otherwise, it's a great reference. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:57, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually Mesut Ozil is now wearing #10. He played with that number throughout the world football challenge and played in the Spanish Super Cup with #10 today. - Brandon Shaver (14, August 2011) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.211.106.162 (talk) 03:08, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Moderator abuse?

It seems there are strange things afoot on this article. Moderators have repeatedly removed any mention of Mesut Oezil's nationality in the article. It seems that these moderators might be Turkish or of Turkish origin and don't like the idea of addressing him as a German? Or they might have some sort of bias against Germany for whatever sports related or political reason. In any case it might be a good idea to alert some other moderators to what has been going on here. The fact that this article was protected simply to stop people from correctly adding his nationality seems like a case of moderators abusing their power. I'm no expert on Wikipedia so I wouldn't know what to do if the moderators themselves show signs of vandalism. Any feedback regarding how to proceed on this would be greatly appreciated. 84.150.194.104 (talk) 22:32, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

There are no such things as moderators on Wikipedia. Oezil's nationality was omitted from the lede because of constant edit-warring with Turkish nationalists who wanted to push their POV onto the page with no regard from Wiki conventions. Not showing his nationality at all, and simply that he was a footballer who plays for the German national team, was a consensus decision made to combat this pointless nationalism. JonBroxton (talk) 22:36, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

What consensus? I don't agree with it. In fact, I don't think the majority agrees with this decision either. When I go to Wayne Rooney's Wikipedia, I see him being listed as an English footballer, even tough his biography states that he is of full Irish descent. In this regard Oezil and Rooney are nearly identical, but for some reason you only chose to omit the nationality of Oezil. Obviously this raises the question why you would single out Oezil out of all the footballers with different descent, nationality, etc. Seeing how your info page states that you're British and "support the Three Lions", it really wouldn't be that far of a stretch if you were doing this on purpose in an attempt to discredit German football, when considering that there exists a somewhat spirited, often hostile rivalry between German and English football. Please note that I'm not trying to steer up any kind of nationalistic debate here, I'm arguing against this from a purely objective point of view. 84.150.180.3 (talk) 07:12, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Take your tin foil hat off. JonBroxton (talk) 07:35, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

See HİS ORİGİN for the history and consensus to remove discussion of both nationality and ethnicity from the lede. The fact that you don't agree with the decision doesn't mean it isn't the current consensus. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:46, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

so wiki is pretty prone to blackmailing as it seems. Oezil´s nationality is German, he´s born in Germany and he was playing for German clubs until he signed for Real. His nationality is a fact, so I can´t see any reasonable reason for not putting it in the text.--62.154.195.115 (talk) 08:21, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

You haven't done your reading then. When you see the reason for removing it we can discuss a valid reason for restoring it. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:07, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

"Oezil" doesn't exist.

Unlike German words and names, the Turkish language doesn't provide anglicized spellings of its words, so therefore the name is either 'Özil' or 'Ozil'. So we should remove the italisized script at the top of the article. 1907AbsoluTurk (talk) 08:14, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Thats right, and his name is derived from Turkish, but since he is German citizen the anglisization is still correct. When you become a German citizen your name is sometimes changed into German spelling (East European names eg). A good example is Serdar Tasci, whos family name was written Taşçı, but now the proper name is Tasci. On the surface this doesn't change anything for Özils name, but it does change the way his name is anglicized, and that now correct as it is in the article: Oezil.

Greetings, Jonathan. Jonathan0007 (talk) 05:16, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Ozil is not a Barca player as this article says.

In the interest, I would like to clarify that Ozil is not a Barca player. I have seen 8x that he was mentioned as a Barca player. hope the article gets corrected. He is a midfielder for Real Madrid CF. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.194.243.178 (talk) 11:38, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

The most recent change existed for less than a minute and was reverted. It's called vandalism and we try to ensure that it doesn't happen. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:11, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Nationality

From looking through the archive it appears that his nationality has not been included to appease the vandals who continuously changed it. He IS a German footballer, born in Germany and has only ever played for Germany. Adam4267 (talk) 14:38, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Not vandals, rather Turkish nationalists. One of whom made the point that he carried a Turkish passport (which he later relinquished) when he started to play professionally. To avoid an overly-long explanation, it was determined that the best way to deal with his nationality would be to remove it. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:55, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

So what is the reason for not saying he is a German footballer. I looked through a bit of the archives and it seems you had to do a lot of explaining to these people. But were (correctly) saying that he is a German footballer. Why the change? Also, in my view anyway, if someone consistently disregards rules to push their own POV they are a vandal. Adam4267 (talk) 15:00, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the user above. If somebody doesn't like a fact, it is still a fact and should not be removed to appease people pushing a political agenda. Oezil is a German footballer, and that's how it should be stated in the article. Jonathan0007 (talk) 05:15, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

There's nothing to disagree with. He is a German footballer. However, the other fact--no political agenda--is that he carried a Turkish passport when he started to play professionally. This would make him a dual citizen. The dispute was therefore about how the nationality should be displayed. Consensus was, and remains that we don't display it at all. There is no had-and-fast rule that states a subject's nationality must be listed so we are exercising the right to exclude it. There is a hard-and-fast rule that ethnicity should not be listed, but that's a different issue. Feel free to make cogent arguments to change the consensus, but I doubt you'll get far. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:51, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

'Exercising a right to exclude something' still doesn't rebut the argument, that this seems to be a measure to appease Turkish nationalists. Because there is no other reason to treat this article different from others and excluding the nationality than the "passport" argument. And thats not much of an argument - not only because he gave it up - since in no other article this dual citizenship leeds to leaving out the nationality in the introduction. And there are hundreds of examples, World Footballer Messi for example has a Spanish passport. Greetings, Jon. Jonathan0007 (talk) 06:15, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

This isn't a compelling argument. At least not to me. Sorry. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:23, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, since you are very involved in the football articles as i can see in various edits, and you do a very good job, i'd still like to compell you, even if you are "only one voice" :)

In other articles about footballers with a dual citizenship the nationality is included, and it's always the nationality of the country the are representing in internationals. I didn't see any exception in hundreds of articles. One example is Mario Gomez. He has dual citizenship like Mesut Oezil, Gomez could play for Spain or Germany, and he had that dual citizenship when he started his professional career. Concerning the argument that led to the exclusion of the nationality in the introduction, these two players have the same prerequisites. The only difference is, there are not Spanish nationalists in Gomez article constantly complaining, vandalizing, including wrong facts etc. Consequently, since there is no call for Gomez beeing called "Spanish-German" in the introduction, the Spanish citizenship is mentioned later in the article (as it is with the Turkish ancestry of Oezil), and the article looks like all the others about footballers with dual citizenship. If the dual citizenship at the start of his career is really the decisive argument, why is there a different standard in all bios of persons (other than Oezil) with comparable conditions. Again, it seems to come down to the complaints of the Turkish nationalists. And i really think it is a bad idea to pander to people with a political agenda, this gives the impression 'not who is right will get his version into WP, but who is most audacious', and it gives incentive to people with a political agenda to be pushy as well, because it seems to work... Greetings, Jon. Jonathan0007 (talk) 08:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

So in short, your argument is consistency? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:11, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, yes. It is a bit more complicated than just "consistency" but that is an essential part. Greetings, Jon. Jonathan0007 (talk) 07:54, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Turkish nationalist ? How about German national socialist trolls vandalizing the article and trying to show ozil as a non Turkish person. forget it. He is Turkish like it or not . Enough of this silliness.His father and Mother is Turkish . why is this so hard to understand? please do not revert the article . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sam alen (talk • contribs) 15:59, 25 May 2012‎ (UTC)

Height

Is he really 6'0" (1m83)? He seems a lot shorter than that. When the German players line up for the national anthem, he always seems to be the shortest - and they're not all over 6 feet. 71.205.174.204 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:36, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

According to http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/es/1193040475259/1330011842639/jugador/Jugador/Ozil.htm he is 1.83 m. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:36, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

According to http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/en/1193040475259/1330011842639/jugador/Jugador/Ozil.htm he's 1.81 m. Not the first time there was a discrepancy between the English and Spanish Real Madrid sites. It happens to agree with http://www.dfb.de/index.php?id=128&action=showPlayer&player=oezil_mesut&lang=D&cHash=bc3608bae8171c9f80265c46a968d04e so I'll make the change. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:39, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Yasirihsan (talk) 22:03, 6 November 2012 (UTC)Mesut Ozil 2012-13 season total Assists are 5. He provided the assist to Pepe in Real Madrid vs Borussia Dortmund game in 2-2 drawYasirihsan (talk) 22:03, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Horse-trading

Ozil is Turkish. One may migrate to Germany, then China, then South Africa, and carry whatever passport he needs! But he is what he is, Turkish! Where is his all family? Does even one person from his family accepts German nationality? Many Turkish people seeking job migrated to Germany 40 years ago, this is true, and it was only for money. Not because they would like to become German. And it's a fact that Germans never welcomed and accepted Turkish people, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solingen_arson_attack_of_1993 . How come you Germans put so much pressure on a Turkish immigrant like this? We all now that you always us Turkish immigrants, but you want to make Ozil a German only because he plays for Real Madrid. This is not fair and disrespectful. How come a Turkish guy with no German relative can become a German? Come on. Stop your imperialist, Neo-Nazi feelings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.119.38.228 (talk) 21:56, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

what is this nationality horse-trading all about? Özil was born in Germany - his family lives for more than 40 years in Germany - but who cares. There are reliable references: [1], [2], [3] --IIIraute (talk) 19:47, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Just look up the section above this. Kante4 (talk) 19:51, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't matter with what kind of bargaining some WP editors have come up with - there are WP policies.--IIIraute (talk) 19:54, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

There was a discussion held and an agreement was made to left out his nationality in the lead... Kante4 (talk) 20:05, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

As mentioned above - there are WP policies - this is not some horse trading. My changes are properly referenced. There is nothing to dispute.--IIIraute (talk) 20:08, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Still, start a new discussion before changing it. Inform the other editors aswell. Kante4 (talk) 20:18, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

WP policies demand that we deal with well sourced facts (WP:IRS) and not some bargaining among editors WP:NOTFORUM. There is nothing to dispute - if someone can present some other well-sourced facts - bring them on.--IIIraute (talk) 20:26, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

IP editors were removing the german nationality all the time and added that he is turkish too, that's why it was done. But like i said, start a new discussion about that. Kante4 (talk) 20:38, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

This can not be the reason - so why not protect the page WP:VAND.--IIIraute (talk) 20:52, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

It's not. A Turkish national indicated that Özil carried both German and Turskish passports when he started playing in the Bundesliga. It was decided that rather than have dual citizenship listed we would simply not list any. It's not really important to any player let alone Özil. The fact that they're footballers is. That's the summary of our WP:CONSENSUS. Care to discuss why it should change based on policy or guidelines? I plan to ignore other discussion. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:51, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Özil is a third-generation Turkish-German. His grandfather immigrated more than 40 years ago. He was born and raised in Germany. He does NOT own a Turkish passport, as this is impossible (in Germany) after the age of 21. The same goes for the FIFA [4]. But most importantly we have very clear references - facts - that give prove of his German citizenship.--IIIraute (talk) 23:13, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

He had a Turkish passport. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:26, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, he had both, a German and a Turkish passport. However, since 2007 he only has a German passport.--IIIraute (talk) 23:33, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

"Im November 2007 beantragte Özil, der bisher einen türkischen und einen deutschen Pass hatte, die Entlassung aus der türkischen Staatsbürgerschaft. Er wolle sich voll und ganz auf die Karriere als deutscher Fußballspieler konzentrieren, sagte er."[5] --IIIraute (talk) 23:36, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

P.S. If you want to add that although born and raised in Germany, additionally he also held a Turkish passport during his childhood, you are welcome to do so - but for the current state of this WP article I would prefer we use the sourced facts we have - WP:IRS.--IIIraute (talk) 23:54, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Since you're being a WP:DICK about it, just like the Turkish national was let's re-state the consensus which you clearly don't understand, most likely because you didn't read how consensus was achieved via the archives.

The Turk's argument as based on WP:MOSBIO as it stood and keyed on the phrase "or was a citizen when the person became notable". That phrase is no longer in WP:MOSBIO and so, based on the new phrasing, "the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident". Notice the present tense.

However the counter argument, the one that convinced the football project members to exclude nationality completely, is in the next paragraph. "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability."

My edit neither mentions his ethnicity nor his previous nationality.--IIIraute (talk) 03:35, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

1. Since he's not notable for being a German, a Turk or any other nationality but rather for being a footballer, there's still no need to emphasize it. So unless
2. other football project members wish to change consensus based on the first point or
3. you have an argument based on policy or guidelines

I'd say that this discussion is over. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:51, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok, easy... it's not like you are the headman on this article - your POV is uncalled for and therefore of no importance. Your counter argument is also none, as it does matter since he is a member of the German Nationalmannschaft - that makes it a key issue → see:[6] ...so who is the WP:DICK here??--IIIraute (talk) 01:29, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't know who you are but I just gave you policies to be followed and you're giving me useless references. When you are able to offer a counter to the policies I presented you may re-enter the discussion until then grow a pair. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:01, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

You did not give any valid WP policies. My edit is based on properly sourced facts that fully comply with the WP. You do not have a single counter argument and your POV is not asked for. You might think so, but you do not own this article. Regarding your bossy and bullying behaviour, I recommend you listen to your own comment above and regard this matter finished for yourself.--IIIraute (talk) 03:16, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

per WP:MOSBIO: Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity);

In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person "is" 'a citizen, national or permanent resident: → Germany

Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability. ....are you getting it? Your "counter argument" is speaking of ethnicity or previous nationality! However, my edit neither mentions his ethnicity nor his previous nationality.--IIIraute (talk) 03:30, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I gave WP:MOSBIO and this is a BLP so how can you lie and say that I didn't give valid WP policies? And you're being selective

He is not notable for either his ethnicity or nationality but for being a footballer. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:16, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

And if we go based on nationality, as was the first point I made above, he was both Turkish and German when his career began. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:17, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Again, per WP:MOSBIO → Opening paragraph, 3.1. →

1. In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. "The country of which the person is a citizen": Germany; "national or permanent resident": Germany; "or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable": not really applicable as he is not mainly known for past events (before he was 18 years old) → apart from that: he was a German citizen, is born in Germany and was permanent resident in Germany when "he became notable."
2. paragraph 3.2. → not applicable, as my edit neither deals with Özil's ethnicity nor previous nationality.--IIIraute (talk) 04:35, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

So you just want nationality when he became a footballer. That would be both German and Turkish. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:45, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

You said it yourself, earlier above → the paragraph says "is" - or notable mainly for past events ...so the mainly does not apply to Özil. He is not mainly known for events before 2007. Apart from that, he was born, raised and educated in Germany (for more than 45 years his family lives in Germany), played until 2010 only for German clubs, and gave up his additional Turkish passport in 2007, and already played in 2006 for the German U19, the following years for the U21 and since 2009 plays for "the" German national team. Also, note: the opening of the main article starts in present tense.... Özil is...--IIIraute (talk) 04:56, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

please also see Wiki-Project-Football: [7]. --IIIraute (talk) 08:20, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

• Ozil is German, a fact which is supported by both reliable sources and common sense. This petty nationalistic editing has to end. GiantSnowman 15:12, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

unanimous resolution and consensus at WT:FOOTY → [8] --IIIraute (talk) 05:06, 28 April 2012 (UTC)