Talk:Meloni government
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 | On 19 November 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Meloni Cabinet to Meloni government. The result of the discussion was moved. |
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Confidence Vote results
[edit]could someone please add the confidence vote results for the chamber of deputies and senate of the republic (the latter wait until tomorrow) thanks VosleCap (talk) 20:37, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
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Requested move 19 November 2022
[edit]- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. Per consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 23:47, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
- Meloni Cabinet → Meloni government
- Draghi Cabinet → Draghi government
- Conte II Cabinet → Second Conte government
- Conte I Cabinet → First Conte government
- Gentiloni Cabinet → Gentiloni government
- Renzi Cabinet → Renzi government
- Letta Cabinet → Letta government
- Monti Cabinet → Monti government
- Berlusconi IV Cabinet → Fourth Berlusconi government
- Prodi II Cabinet → Second Prodi government
- Berlusconi III Cabinet → Third Berlusconi government
- Berlusconi II Cabinet → Second Berlusconi government
- Amato II Cabinet → Second Amato government
- D'Alema II Cabinet → Second D'Alema government
- D'Alema I Cabinet → First D'Alema government
- Prodi I Cabinet → First Prodi government
- Dini Cabinet → Dini government
- Berlusconi I Cabinet → First Berlusconi government
- Ciampi Cabinet → Ciampi government
- Amato I Cabinet → First Amato government
- Andreotti VII Cabinet → Seventh Andreotti government
- Andreotti VI Cabinet → Sixth Andreotti government
- De Mita Cabinet → De Mita government
- Goria Cabinet → Goria government
- Fanfani VI Cabinet → Sixth Fanfani government
- Craxi II Cabinet → Second Craxi government
- Craxi I Cabinet → First Craxi government
- Fanfani V Cabinet → Fifth Fanfani government
- Spadolini II Cabinet → Second Spadolini government
- Spadolini I Cabinet → First Spadolini government
- Forlani Cabinet → Forlani government
- Cossiga II Cabinet → Second Cossiga government
- Cossiga I Cabinet → First Cossiga government
- Andreotti V Cabinet → Fifth Andreotti government
- Andreotti IV Cabinet → Fourth Andreotti government
- Andreotti III Cabinet → Third Andreotti government
- Moro V Cabinet → Fifth Moro government
- Moro IV Cabinet → Fourth Moro government
- Rumor V Cabinet → Fifth Rumor government
- Rumor IV Cabinet → Fourth Rumor government
- Andreotti II Cabinet → Second Andreotti government
- Andreotti I Cabinet → First Andreotti government
- Colombo Cabinet → Colombo government
- Rumor III Cabinet → Third Rumor government
- Rumor II Cabinet → Second Rumor government
- Rumor I Cabinet → First Rumor government
- Leone II Cabinet → Second Leone government
- Moro III Cabinet → Third Moro government
- Moro II Cabinet → Second Moro government
- Moro I Cabinet → First Moro government
- Leone I Cabinet → First Leone government
- Fanfani IV Cabinet → Fourth Fanfani government
- Fanfani III Cabinet → Third Fanfani government
- Tambroni Cabinet → Tambroni government
- Segni II Cabinet → Second Segni government
- Zoli Cabinet → Zoli government
- Scelba Cabinet → Scelba government
- Fanfani I Cabinet → First Fanfani government
- Pella Cabinet → Pella government
- De Gasperi VIII Cabinet → Eighth De Gasperi government
- De Gasperi VII Cabinet → Seventh De Gasperi government
- De Gasperi VI Cabinet → Sixth De Gasperi government
- De Gasperi V Cabinet → Fifth De Gasperi government
- De Gasperi IV Cabinet → Fourth De Gasperi government
- De Gasperi III Cabinet → Third De Gasperi government
- De Gasperi II Cabinet → Second De Gasperi government
- De Gasperi I Cabinet → First De Gasperi government
– The current article title is neither natural nor compliant with capitalization guidelines. This move proposes three things: (1) to do away with cabinet in favor of government (WP:COMMONNAME); (2) to change the Roman numeral for the number in written form (WP:NATURAL); and (3) to swap the capitalization of Cabinet for a non-capitalized government (WP:NCCAPS). It follows similar formats currently in effect for Spain (Second government of Pedro Sánchez) and France (Second Philippe government), and is inspired from another move request from 2020 (Talk:Second government of Pedro Sánchez).
- Context. No overarching guideline or naming convention exists for government/cabinet article titles has existed on Wikipedia, which has led to a heterogenous set of names within this category of articles. If you have a look at Category:Current governments, you'll see a disorganized mess with little cohesion.
- Government or cabinet? WP:COMMONNAME should apply here. In English-language sources, Italian government dwarfs Italian cabinet in Google Ngram Viewer. Similar results can be found for specific government/cabinets of the last ten years: Monti, Letta, Renzi, and Conte (Gentiloni and Meloni returned no results). In reliable sources, usage of "X government" is also far more common than "X cabinet". Looking at "Meloni government" and "Meloni cabinet" in reliable sources, we get:
- Ordinal numerals or roman numerals? Second Conte government is far more WP:NATURAL in English than Conte II government. Names like Conte II are inherited from Italian newspaper headline jargon, which looks odd to an English reader. It is telling that many government articles that use a roman numeral choose the ordinal numeral in the lead (e.g. At Rama III Government, the first sentence reads:
The third Government of Prime Minister Edi Rama is the 67th ruling Government of the Republic of Albania [...]
). If we look at Ngrams for individual governments of this century that had multiple iterations, like second Berlusconi government, third Berlusconi government, second Prodi government, or fourth Berlusconi government, we can see that the ordinal form is much more common than the roman form in English. For completeness' sake, I also took a look at reliable sources for the most recent government with multiple iterations (Conte II Cabinet), but the picture is murkier (I excluded sources that showed zero results for each):
| Country | Second Conte [government/cabinet] | Conte II [government/cabinet] | Analysis | URLs | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| The Globe and Mail | Canada | 1 | 1 | Toss-up | "second Conte" site:www.theglobeandmail.com "Conte II" site:www.theglobeandmail.com |
| Toronto Star | Canada | 1 | 0 | Ordinal | "second Conte" site:www.thestar.com "Conte II" site:www.thestar.com |
| The Independent | UK | 1 | 1 | Toss-up | "second Conte" site:www.independent.co.uk "Conte II" site:www.independent.co.uk |
| The Guardian | UK | 1 | 1 | Toss-up | "second Conte" site:www.theguardian.com "Conte II" site:www.theguardian.com |
| The Economist | UK | 1 | 0 | Ordinal | "second Conte" site:www.economist.com "Conte II" site:www.economist.com |
| The New York Times | United States | 0 | 2 | Roman | "second Conte" site:www.nytimes.com "Conte II" site:www.nytimes.com |
| The Washington Post | United States | 1 | 1 | Toss-up | "second Conte" site:www.washingtonpost.com "Conte II" site:www.washingtonpost.com |
- Finally, when looking at List of current governments#National governments, roman numerals also seem to be used in fewer titles than ordinal numerals:
| Roman numerals ("IV") | Ordinal numbers ("fourth", "8th") | |
|---|---|---|
| # of occurrences | 6 | 32 |
| Examples in Europe (non-exhaustive) | Rama III Government, Bettel–Schneider Ministry II | Fourth Rutte cabinet, Second government of Pedro Sánchez, Kaja Kallas' second cabinet |
- First name or no first name? I don't think we need the first names of the Prime Ministers in the title due to WP:CONCISE. In the 2020 Spanish move, it was argued that they were needed for disambiguation, but there seem to be no homonyms Italian PMs. I don't oppose the longer name if it means solving the other issues, though.
In summary, we should use the most common name used in English-language sources (government) and the most common numeration form (third, rather than III), and align this article with the capitalization guidelines (government, not Government). Pilaz (talk) 18:05, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- Note: WikiProject Italy has been notified of this discussion. Pilaz (talk) 18:18, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- Note: WikiProject Politics has been notified of this discussion. Pilaz (talk) 18:18, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 21:43, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: Note regional English differences in deciding whether to switch "cabinet" to "government". 73.223.72.200 (talk) 01:59, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
- Support, as I had already proposed something similar a couple of years ago see Talk:Conte II Cabinet#Capitalization in title (I had a different username). Yakme (talk) 09:52, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
- Strongly support per consistency. --Checco (talk) 14:15, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- Support - The proposal is sensible: cabinet is synonymous with the council of ministers, while the page is about the entire government, including undersecretaries. The capitalization in this case is also incorrect. I would also apply the move to the governments of the Kingdom of Italy, not included in this proposal.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 13:39, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
- That's a good point, Scia Della Cometa. I figured I would nominate the Republic of Italy governments first since the list was quite long already, but if you want to kickstart the Kingdom of Italy RM, feel free to do so. Pilaz (talk) 18:47, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@Pilaz, Ortizesp, Yakme, and Checco: Do you think another procedure is necessary for the request to move for the governments of the Kingdom of Italy? Or can we consider the consensus for the move of all the pages on the Italian governments to have been acquired?--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 15:26, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- I think that this consensus should be applied also to the governments of the Kingdom of Italy. --Checco (talk) 07:08, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- Whatever it is, do assist in the WP:POSTMOVE cleanup tasks on these 60+ articles first. – robertsky (talk) 10:17, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. I think we should first complete the postmove cleanup, and then move the pages for the Kingdom of Italy. It would probably be best to go with a RM to consolidate the current consensus, but I'm also okay with it being done without that. If those pages are moved without discussion, make sure to reference this RM in the edit summary. Pilaz (talk) 15:19, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Pilaz after all, a page about a cabinet under the Kingdom of Italy has already been moved too following this RM (First De Gasperi government). @robertsky In reality, I think it would be easier to fix the inbound link after moving all the pages (I'm thinking about the pages concerning the lists of Ministers, for example).--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 15:47, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
- That makes sense. Again, Scia Della Cometa, you can go ahead if you'd like, but it'd be best to go with WP:RMPM. Cleanup update: completed from first Berlusconi government to today. Previous governments still require post-move cleanup. Pilaz (talk) 22:55, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- WP:RMPM opened here: Talk:Parri Cabinet.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 22:22, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- That makes sense. Again, Scia Della Cometa, you can go ahead if you'd like, but it'd be best to go with WP:RMPM. Cleanup update: completed from first Berlusconi government to today. Previous governments still require post-move cleanup. Pilaz (talk) 22:55, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Pilaz after all, a page about a cabinet under the Kingdom of Italy has already been moved too following this RM (First De Gasperi government). @robertsky In reality, I think it would be easier to fix the inbound link after moving all the pages (I'm thinking about the pages concerning the lists of Ministers, for example).--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 15:47, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. I think we should first complete the postmove cleanup, and then move the pages for the Kingdom of Italy. It would probably be best to go with a RM to consolidate the current consensus, but I'm also okay with it being done without that. If those pages are moved without discussion, make sure to reference this RM in the edit summary. Pilaz (talk) 15:19, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- Whatever it is, do assist in the WP:POSTMOVE cleanup tasks on these 60+ articles first. – robertsky (talk) 10:17, 30 November 2022 (UTC)