Talk:Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania/Archive 1

English of Name

English name seems to be Mecklenburg-Vorpommern

Searching Google (English pages only):

Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania: 7,830 hits

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern 38,200 hits -- Nico 04:27, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Unfortunately it took a rather long time until I realised this page move.

1. Counting Google hits is not a sufficient basis for this decision. Britannica calls it Mecklenburg-West Pomerania, almost every serious English source calls it either Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania or Mecklenburg-West Pomerania.

2. Doing such a massive page move should be done after some talk only. There were numerous links pointing to MWP and dozens of pages calling the state MWP.

3. You did the page move via cut and paste what is generally a bad procedure.

-- Baldhur 13:29, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It was discussed (with Adam Carr, i think). You should also see Talk:Vorpommern Nico 14:26, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania is confusing, because Polish Voivodship around Stettin/Szczecin is also called Western Pomerania. 62.104.210.101 15:08, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I much prefer Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, firstly, because 'Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania' is quite hideous, and secondly, because it's used far more.

"Vorpommern" should be more accurately translated as "Further Pommerania". But, I agree, "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern" is a more commonly used and better-sounding title. -Alex 12.220.157.93 01:17, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm from Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania - So you decide the name like what sounds best? that's really unprofessional... It's logic that there are more hits on google under Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, even in the english version, cuz MV (MWP) is mostly quiet unknown outside germany. For me it's clear that the english name for Mecklenburg-Vorpommern is Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania... you can read that in every dictionary (one lying next to me) - this discussion is kinda rediculous...

Based on my Encyclopaedia Britannica (not gospel but certainly a recognised authority), I have always thought it was Mecklenburg-West Pomerania. Why use the German name? We talk about Munich, Cologne, Rome, Naples etc. even though they are called München, Köln, Roma and Napoli in their home countries. A agree with the previous contributor that all English sources use one of two English versions (West vs. Western, see below). 78.50.226.147 11:50, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

There is one very good reason to use 'Vorpommern' - the government of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern's official website uses that term on both it's German and English pages. Irrespective of the opinions of the Encyclopedia Britannia, Google, the dictionary or anyone else, even if they live in the state, on the issue of the name the final arbiter is the government of the state and what they call it in English. Green Giant 16:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect to the rightful power of the inhabitants of a given territory to name their own region, that may be the term favored in the version of English taught in German schools, but in Anglo-American English, there can be no question that our name for this part of northeastern Germany is "Mecklenburg-West Pomerania," not "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern." Our reference works cite that name, as does the BBC, and what few English-language media outlets cover stories in Mecklenburg-West Pomerania. Irrespective of what English-speaking functionaries of the German government might prefer we call it, the actual, English-speaking peoples of the Anglophone nations, refer to this place as "Mecklenburg-West Pomerania." And hence that is what the name of this article should be. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 05:17, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

West in Name

The preference in the title for "Western Pomerania" over "West Pomerania" misses a subtle difference in English. Plain "West" is generally used for clearly delineated territories, whereas "western" (often not capitalized) refers to more vaguely defined regions.

The choice between the two always carries political implications, for example the "South Lebanon Army" was so named to suggest a territorial exercise of control within a part of Lebanon occupied by Israel, whereas "southern Lebanon" was a phrase that stressed that all the south was an inalienable part of Lebanon. The term "West Germany" refers to the pre-1990 Federal Republic of Germany, whereas "western Germany" refers vaguely to all places between the centre and the Benelux/French border.

The one notable exception to this usage is "Northern Ireland" to describe the "Six Counties" of Ulster. The reason for this illustrates the distinction: the drafters of the Anglo-Irish Treaty chose "Northern" as a way of denying that the treaty itself was the instrument of partition and of emphasizing the temporariness of the division. In fact, only Southern Ireland was temporary.

In historical and cultural contexts, "western Pomerania" is the correct term for Vorpommern, particularly to make clear that some areas on the right bank of the Oder may be included, and titling the western Pomerania article in this way is clearly correct, since the article explores how that term refers to many entities. But in speaking of the modern German political territory known as Vorpommern, "West Pomerania" would be correct because the border is final and not in dispute.

It is true that there was some confusion in 1990 when the state was created, and that multiple forms of the name entered currency (it was even suggested that the closest English term, cis-, be applied, to make it Cispomerania). Since then, international English-speaking news organizations have generally chosen "West Pomerania", whereas as far as I can see, "Mecklenburg Western Pomerania" is a construct that originated with German speakers of English, rather like those odd "Made in Western Germany" labels that used to appear on a few goods.

It's not clear what the -ern suffix was supposed to imply in the 1990s. It was longer, yet without any semantic enhancement. Perhaps it merely sounded more impressive to non-native speakers of English? However some readers might interpret that term, "Western Pomerania", as suggesting that the political boundaries of Vorpommern are not final, and thus as questioning the international border to Poland. For all these reasons it should therefore be deprecated when referring to today's German political region.

If there is no consensus to use the German term "Vorpommern" for the political entity, as Nico suggests above, I would certainly suggest reverting the title of this article to Mecklenburg West Pomerania. I would also suggest not punctuating with a hyphen, as hyphenation here does not conform to English punctuation usage. If used, the hyphen creates a stronger bond between Mecklenburg and West than between the parts West and Pomerania, which is contrary to sense. --PubliusTacitus 17:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The ideal solution to the hyphenation, per Fowler, would be to use a double hyphen between Western and Pomerania, thus linking them more closely than the other two. This is a recommendation by a prescriptive grammarian, not usage; but if clarity is an issue, it may be worth considering.

The proposed change does not dispel the bogeyman of irredentism. Vorpommern suggests Hinterpommern just as much as Western implies Eastern. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

How about Nordvorpommern and Ostvorpommern? I would prefer to call them "northern West Pomerania" and "eastern West Pomerania". Not beautiful - but "northern Western Pomerania" sounds even stranger, and "north Western Pomerania" is very misleading. 78.50.226.147 11:50, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern

I am from Mecklenburg, and I support the title Mecklenburg-Vorpommern for a variety of reasons. Firstly, I agree that the hyphen in "Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania" links Mecklenburg and Western, not, as it should, "Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania". It just looks odd and for those unfamiliar with the historic dimension of this name, Vorpommern being the western part of the old Pommern, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Secondly, it is a German state, so why not use the German term. Thirdly "Mecklenburg-Western Pommerania" is just awfully long. The state's "official" website is www.mecklenburg-vorpommern.eu - and the title is "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern" on the German, English and Polish language version - another reason for not confusing people and using the original name. Last not least, an agreement on the use of Vorpommern ends disputes whether it is Hither/Further/Western/West or something else Pomerania and google search clearly shows Vorpommern is more widely used than all the other options. I think Mecklenburg-Vorpommern should be used. Should there be a vote? Likedeeler 17:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

In my experience, the German title has been used more often in English than the current "translated" title. If you'd like to propose a move, WP:RM is the best approach to take. Olessi 16:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The use of the hyphen Likedeeler mentions might look strange to a German-speaker, where hyphens are used to link nouns, but it's perfectly fine in English, where this is generally not the case. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 08:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Request

I suggest a page move to Mecklenburg-Vorpommern for a variety of reasons:

• the hyphen in "Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania" can be misunderstood - it could bring up the association of a link between "Mecklenburg" and "Western", not, as intended, between "Mecklenburg" and "Western Pomerania"
• there is no ideal translation of Vorpommern
• looks odd, and for those unfamiliar with the historic dimension of this name (Vorpommern being the western part of the old Pommerania) it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense
• is a German state, so why not use the German term
• "Mecklenburg-Western Pommerania" is just awfully long
• state's "official" website is www.mecklenburg-vorpommern.eu - and the title is "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern" on the German, English and Polish language version
• an agreement on the use of Vorpommern ends disputes whether it is Hither/Further/Western/West or something else Pomerania (see Talk:Hither Pomerania for more)
• Searching Google (English pages only) clearly shows Vorpommern is more widely used than all the other options:
  • Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania: 7,830 hits
  • Mecklenburg-Hither Pomerania 161 hits
  • Mecklenburg-Vorpommern 38,200 hits
• "Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania" is misleading, because a Polish Voivodship near Stettin/Szczecin is also called West(ern) Pomerania

Likedeeler 12:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

English use

Some data on English use: Encyclopedias:

• Britannica Mecklenburg–West Pomerania
• Columbia Mecklenburg–West Pomerania
• Encarta Mecklenburg-Vorpommern

Google news archive (1990-2007):

• Mecklenburg-Vorpommern 878
• Mecklenburg-West Pomerania 319
• Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania 736
• Mecklenburg-Hither Pomerania 0

Google scholar (only English, 1990-2007):

• Mecklenburg-Vorpommern 1,880 (estimated 20% still in German)
• Mecklenburg-West Pomerania 268
• Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania 293
• Mecklenburg-Hither Pomerania 1

Based on the above, I'd say that the German name and the two translations Mecklenburg-West Pomerania and Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania are all widely used in English, maybe the German name a bit more. Markussep 10:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I would estimate higher than 20%. Some of the hits (including the first) for Vorpommern also use Sachsen for Saxony, which implies that they are uncertain guides to English usage (papers translated from the German for English journals?). Others use Vorpommern in citing papers in German; the seventh hit cites "Jacobs, J. 1991. Die Einzelgrabkultur in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern". The ninth hit is on postal addresses, which testify to German usage. (WP:NCGN notes this problem with scholar.google. ) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The first page has many German language hits (Jahreswirtschaftsbericht, Statistisches Jahrbuch), but the following pages are better. Even if 80% of the hits are false, it's still more than the most used translated name. Your Sachsen/Saxony observation is interesting, I guess there's a tendency to use local names in English (BTW Saxony 15,000 vs. Sachsen 4,870). Markussep 15:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Quote: Even if 80% of the hits are false, it's (Vorpommern) still more than the most used translated name. and I guess there's a tendency to use local names in English. What more can I say. Likedeeler 20:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Survey

• Support — while I disagree that the hyphen is so very confusing (and follows the pattern of North Rhine-Westphalia, for instance), the native form is more widely used, even in English, and follows the increasing (and in my opinion laudable) trend towards using non-English names for non-English-speaking places. --Stemonitis 14:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Google Books indicates a preference for Vorpommern over Western Pomerania as well. Olessi 18:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Obviously, I support the move as well :-). Likedeeler 12:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose. Vorpommern is not English, not widely used in English, and not likely to be understood by the English-speakers for whom this English Wikipedia is designed. It is therefore contrary to the purpose of Wikipedia (and to policy: WP:NAME#Use English words). I would (weakly) support a move to the more common and more literal, but faintly archaic, Hither Pomerania. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

  I think the search clearly shows that Vorpommern is more widely used. Never in my life have I heard or read "Hither Pomerania" in any source of quality, and that is exactly the conflict (Hither, WEst, Western, ...) which the German name would solve. Again, it is used widely in English and infititely more so than "Hither" (google gives you a total of 161 (!) hits only, searching English pages only). Also, there is only oppose or support, but strongly oppose.... I don't know.... I have never claimed that Vorpommern is "English" - but neither is Baden-Württemberg, Berlin, Paris, etc. ... Likedeeler 20:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

  Raw google is a very bad tool. The google search in question is a prime example of why. It begins, in fact, with this article, which includes (as it does as I write) Mecklenburg-Vorpommern in the sentence: "Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania (German: Mecklenburg-Vorpommern) is a state in northern Germany." This is not, of course, an attestation of English, but of German, usage. Several hits, even on the first search page, are in fact German text (the "search English" button is only reading one bit; it is often flat wrong). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

  But nevertheless raw google tells us: Hither Pomerania is basically not in use. On the other hand, depending on how you search, you get results of up to 600,000 hits for "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern" (English pages only). Moreover, I searched the BBC website to see which is more frequent, Vorpommern, West Pomerania or Western Pomerania. Vorpommern is by far used the most. Likedeeler 00:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Support — Despite my strong criticism of Western and my argument that plain West is correct, I've come to the view that Wikipedia should treat contemporary and historical entities differently. It is good English usage to style the present state created in 1990 Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. It is a new political unit, not a successor to any unit with the same boundaries. A "translated" or etymological name serves no useful purpose in this modern context, though it may be informative for a reader when discussing the historical and shifting entity of "West Pomerania", including that territory's German, Swedish, Polish and other influences, in an appropriate separate article. Consider: the etymology of the French department of Manche links it to the English Channel, but we feel no need in English to demonstrate this etymology: we simply speak of Manche. Simple is best. Tacitus 22:34, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania to Mecklenburg-Vorpommern as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 16:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Castle

Statement that "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern is the only state where the parliament meets in a castle" is a German witticism that does not translate. The venue is named Schloss Schwerin, but it is not what is described in English as a castle. (Yes, I know there are places all over the British Isles down to the size of dog kennel with "castle" in their name, but it doesn't change the semantics of the word.) The usual translation for a structure like Schwerin's, built purely for fine living, is "palace" or "chateau". Bavaria's parliament also meets in a palace. Tacitus 11:56, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you seen the immense size of the building? I think the chateaus in English seem to be much smaller. Maybe the word palace would be good, but the Germans don't call it Palast but Schloss. In earlier centuries, it served as a burgh/castle (with defence facilities), but was - only a 150 years ago - built into what it is today, a neoclassicist/romanticist castle. If you look at Neuschwanstein "Castle" you will also find similarities. Likedeeler 12:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

"Schloß" often translates as "palace"; it's not necessarily a castle in the English sense, often because, as in the case of Schwerin, a palace was built on the site of a former castle. "Palast" is almost always "palace" but "Schloß" can be either (Schloß Bellvue, Schloß Charlottenburg, Berliner Stadtschloß, Schloß Sanssouci, to name but four local examples of "palaces" in English). ProhibitOnions ^(T) 08:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

There are two kind´s of "Schloss" in german architecture:

First: a medieval castle (Burg) was build up during the renaissance into something like a palace (Schloss) like Schwerin-Castle, or Second: a completely new building was erected like that Schloss-Ludwigslust

The term palace differs in german to "Palast" and "Palais". "Palast" means the Place, where a King, Duke or Bishop takes his representational Seat or the stemseat(Stammsitz) of his ancestors. A "Palais" could be in- or outside from towns and is just a wealthy looking building with many possible functions.

A Burgh or castle became mostly a fortress (Festung - a fortificated building with tactical purposes like Dömitz) or sometimes it had been restructured with windows, parks, interieur a.s.o. to that, what you call palace!

The only special of Schwerin´s palace is the continuated function as centerpoint of Mecklenburgs Dukes since the highmiddleages, so you can find every layer of 850years architectural-history in it, which is nowadays unanimous in germany (often besmiled, the mecklenburg people had the oldest, undisturbed, dynasty, which would heir the Hohenzollern reign after all)--139.30.24.119 (talk) 18:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Carbon-copy of this article found at Mecklenburg-West Pomerania

It seems that a certain editor is intent on seeing some sort of article on this state with a translated English name. The result of this was that on 11 June, s/he effectively created a carbon copy of this article by removing an existing redirect. The reasoning presented in the edit summary was that we should consult the "govt. of the Federal Republic of Germany and see what THEY say". Well in past instances similar to this I have supported the idea of finding out what the official line is on the issue of the name. Since the editor failed to present a source, I instead consulted the government of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern's official website and in both their German and English language pages they use the term Vorpommern. However, there is a PDF for foreign students published by the Ministry of Education, Science and Culture which uses the term Mecklenburg-West Pomerania. Personally I am more inclined to go with the name used by the main government site so I have restored the redirect to this article. Green Giant 16:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

District reform

The planned district reform has been abandoned by the supreme court of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern at Greifswald. --87.161.205.8 16:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

lingo

s it relevant to the article to discuss the nature of the language? It is an official language regardless of people thinking differently but that and differences between standard German are not relevant to the article. Just put a link to Low German if it is worth mentioning as an own subject anyway.85.176.98.217 (talk) 14:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Food

I´d begun to rewrite the Food-Topic, but my english-skills were not good enough... For Mecklenburg: a typical thing is, that every meal (which is called in german:"herzhaft") has to be served with a little bit of marmelade or honey! This fits on the pomeranian kitchen as well, but they have more specialities (they are using mustard instead of salt for their "hardboiled" eggs). Another sign for Mecklenburg´s food is a genuin blackbread ("Kastenbrot") and the famous "rollmops" (a sour, rolled hering, "paled" together by a little piece of wood). "Heaven an´ Earth" (Himm´l un´ Erde) - a panmeal, consisting of potatoes an apples ("poormans lunch" - "Armeleute-Essen") is also strongly related to Mecklenburg and Pomerania. In difference to former prussia - they like it "sweet-sour" ("Königsberger Klopse" a.s.o.)- you can say Meck/Pomms´ food is old-styled, strongly related to that countries resources and that, what we call "deftig". Since hanseatic times, where cereals have been a major export, traditionel brewery is another important part of the typical food. Whitebread and "Brezeln" - like in Southgermany - are less beloved and consessions to the tourists. --139.30.24.43 (talk) 18:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I happen to come from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, too, and never in my life have I heard about the 'marmelade and honey' thing. The other things seem to be correct though. Axt (talk) 10:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The 'marmelade and honey' thing could be wether a rural or a local phenomenon (which referres to traditional customs in east-Mecklenburg). But I would not insist in it - maybe there is more family-originated tradition in it than I had expected! For myself: I never liked/ate it this way, when my ancestors were licking their greedy thumbs in expectation of their well-deserved meal! BUT: most of my mecklenburg-rooted friends (and so their families as well) know that `marmelade and honey thing´. It may be differ in west-mecklenburg and pommern, so I can live without a mentioning of it!--139.30.24.119 (talk) 18:03, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

German neo-Nazis refugee

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/sep/15/germany.thefarright

According to a poll for ZDF television the far-right National Party of Germany (NPD) is likely to win 7% of the vote in elections on Sunday in the north-east state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern

Dear user:TheNoiseBringer, please sign your comments with four tildes, thanks. Concerning your post, did you look at the date? See Mecklenburg-Vorpommern state election, 2006Skäpperöd (talk) 13:08, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

McPomm ??

As far as I remember Mecklenburg is no McDonald's meal. Changed to "MeckPomm"--MacX85 (talk) 07:48, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Area of Vorpommern

Does anyone know the size of Vorpommern in km2/mi2? It seems to be nowhere in the article or on the internet how much of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern was gained from the former Pomerania. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.177.190.23 (talk) 23:12, 15 May 2012 (UTC)