Talk:McKownville, New York

Derry

Please note that the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles) clearly lays out how to deal with the Derry/Londonderry issue. If you can provide something that says different it would be appreciated otherwise I will revert your edit back to Derry as per the guidelines. Bjmullan (talk) 10:44, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you do not revert and instead leave a comment at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) instead where I have started a thread and where there is currently no consensus regarding this specific issue. Given there is no consensus and if the thread continues at no consensus then the article should stick with the source and since the county IS referred to as Londonderry in the Irish MOS guideline we can not be sure that the source is talking about the county or the city, and therefore I say it may very well be the county, in which case Londonderry is correct. (note it is a guideline and as such I am invoking IAR as my reason for ignoring the Irish MOS as ignoring it does in fact improve Wikipedia by clearing confusion between Londonderry the county and Derry the city)Camelbinky (talk) 05:35, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

If you are not sure whether it is talking about the city or the county, why link to the city? And the simple way of resolving this is to just remove the city/county in its entirety, since it really does not seem important to say which part of Ireland he was from? O Fenian (talk) 09:15, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree O Fenian, if you use the fact that Londonderry is reserved for the county, it should link to the county... not an article called Derry.--NorthernCounties (talk) 09:42, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Camelbinky's comment above is also incorrect. The current consensus is to use Derry for the city and Londonderry for the county, which is a guideline that should not be ignored without good reason. Should he/she fail to gain consensus to change that guideline then the status quo prevails, namely to use Derry for the city still. O Fenian (talk) 10:10, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

My comment is not incorrect seeing as how I said exactly that Londonderry is for the county and Derry is for the city, please dont say I'm incorrect and then say the exact thing I said. As far as IAR is concerned a guideline is just that, it guides, it is not the law, IAR can and will be used if I so choose, so far it seems at least two other users agree with me at the Village pump(both of those two are extremely well-versed in policy/guidelines since they have helped write/rewrite much of the existing policy/guidelines of Wikipedia; as have I btw) Read better before commenting on something please! Good grief. The discussion has moved to the Village pump, please move it there. The link is going to be moved to link to the county and will stay Londonderry. This is an article about a place in the Capital District of New York a US state, this is not an article about Ireland in any way, please stick to messing up Irish articles since that is what you know and I will stick to NYCD articles since (if you look at my contributions and my user page) this is what I am most definitely an expert on. Thanks.Camelbinky (talk) 13:15, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I am afraid your sentence of "Given there is no consensus and if the thread continues at no consensus then the article should stick with the source" is incorrect, as I explained. You have still failed to show the relevance of the part of Ireland being included, please do so otherwise I shall remove it. O Fenian (talk) 16:53, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

For such an expert you seem to have forgotten the five pillars. Please comment on the edit not the editors. Bjmullan (talk) 16:25, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm an expert on the history, geography, and other related topics regarding the NYCD region, once again may I please ask that you READ carefully what I write before commenting! I NEVER said I was an expert on policy, I simply said I have been involved in rewriting and writing alot of policy; only said I was an expert regarding the NYCD region. Regarding the 5P- the 5P is neither policy, nor guideline, nor anything else, it is a summary of existing policy, policy does not flow from it, nor does the 5P prescribe or dictate policy. Please understand the difference between what the 5P does and what policy does. User:WhatamIdoing can be contacted and asked, that user IS an expert on policy and the 5P. Regardless, discussion here is not needed as this particular dispute has been settled, discussion regarding the theoretical application of IMOS over non-Irish related articles is centralized at the village pump. Thanks.Camelbinky (talk) 16:57, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Mentioning County Londonderry is relevant as the name of the place is McKownville and it is named after a man whose last name is McKown... therefore it is relevant where this man came from expecially given the Mc part of the name, people would be curious as to where he is from and his personal history, if there was more about him than just where he was from (such as what he did for a living, and such) I would add that too. As the founder of the community and its namesake his history is quite relevant to the history of the hamlet. If you have no knowledge or interest in learning and adding and improving this particular article I suggest you concentrate your efforts on articles you have knowledge about since that would be more productive. NYCD articles are quite well-covered by a large number of well-knowledgeable individuals at the NYCD wikiproject.Camelbinky (talk) 17:03, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

You would think an "expert" would know he came from Scotland surely? His name is nothing to do with Ireland at all, so your entire reasoning is bogus. O Fenian (talk) 17:05, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

If you are not going to take time to read my posts then please dont comment on my posts!!!!! I said that as the founder of the community his personal history is completely relevant, all of his personal history, that would include him moving to Ireland. Read again. I cant keep repeating myself each time because you can not be careful in reading other people's posts and please stop with the snipping about "expert", for someone who is so concerned about "comment on content not the editor" you are surely a hypocrite. This discussion has been resolved.Camelbinky (talk) 17:13, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

No, it has not been resolved. How does a city someone lived in for a short time in a different country to where they were born have any bearing on their surname? The discussion about this article will take place here, wider issues can be addressed elsewhere. Despite your expertship's attempts to own this article, I will discuss it here. O Fenian (talk) 17:16, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

You are a disruptive POV pusher and I do not have to respond or engage in debate with you because of that. You couldnt get rid of the word Londonderry in favor of Derry so you want the entire thing gone in order to satisfy your POV regarding English/Irish naming convention. You have insulted me and continued to do so after being asked not to. I have brought the issue to the village pump where it was clear there is no consensus for the use of IMOS on this case, IMOS may have consensus in broad use but it can only be used in specific cases if the community still has consensus that it should be used in such a manner, hence IAR. Your removing of the information does not improve the article, keeping the information does improve the article per how I have described. It is integral to how the founder came to the US, just mentioning he's from Scotland leaves out a chunk of his past that obviously an author of the RS thought was notable enough to include in her book. I am not going to argue this with you, you can not forth me despite you trying to and to bait me with your continuing insult. If you try to engage me in conversation in that manner again I will bring this to the Wikittiquette noticeboard and then to AN/I if you continue such insulting condescending attitude. Being one of the two co-founders of the NYCD wikiproject, creator of dozens of NYCD related articles, and being the primary author of dozens of more NYCD related articles plus my real life background, plus the acknowledgement of other editors on Wikipedia of my expertise regarding NYCD aspects in history, geography, neighborhoods, etc does give me the right to call me an expert in that topic. I would happily acknowledge your expertise in Irish related topics. But that brings you here with a COI that is hard to ignore. My protection of this article has nothing to do with ownership and everything to do with the fact you are not here to improve the article but instead to push a POV. If you had something to contribute or knowledge to offer regarding McKownville I would gladly welcome your work on improving the article. Feel free to do research at Google Books, or a google search, your local library, or visit the hamlet yourself and add information you find to this article. So your attempt at a smear is unfounded and this is in fact over. Contact me at my talk page ONLY to inform me of when you have taken the next step in content dispute resolution regarding this issue, any attempt to change the article without that step being resolved is in fact editing without consensus. This discussion is over, the dispute is not resolved in your favor however just because I walk away from your rude and discourteous attitude.Camelbinky (talk) 20:42, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Despite you acting throughout like you own this article, you do not. I suggest reading WP:BOOMERANG. O Fenian (talk) 20:47, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I would like to emphasis this is not a O Fenian POV issue... it is in line with the agreed compromise to the whole Derry/Londonderry dispute. Hence, O Fenian and B J Mullan are ensuring the adherence to Wikipedia protocol. They are not lone rangers whom have the sole aspiration to disrupt and pollute Wikipedia with uneducated points of view. --NorthernCounties (talk) 20:58, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I would also like to emphasise that I am editing with consensus, a Wikipedia guideline says the city is known as Derry. Simply because Camelbinky disagrees with that does not mean there is no consensus for the change, since I have the consensus of a guideline behind me. The notion that we should be forced to go through dispute resolution over whether to call the city "Derry" or "Londonderry" when a guideline already says what to call it is inherently disruptive in my opinion, and the editor concerned should really stop disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. Also as you claim I, and I assume other editors, need consensus to change this article, perhaps you could explain why you made this edit while the matter was under discussion? It it because we need permission but you do not? O Fenian (talk) 21:00, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I am bringing this to WP:AN/I to get administrator input since parties to this discussion do not wish to discuss, use content dispute resolution or the village pump nor listen to compromises brought force in the village pump that Londonderry referring to the county allows it to remain. The whole purpose of some editors here is simply to remove from Wikipedia the word Londonderry and not to improve this article. Edits that are do not improve an article, and remove information, are inherently under scrutiny and need consensus. This is notice to all parties, and I will inform each on their talk page but if I forget one this is a blanket notice.Camelbinky (talk) 23:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

This is an easy one, but it does highlight the way some editors seek to push an Irish Nationalist agenda on Wikipedia, and stopping their POV is no easy matter. First off, this reference states that McKown came to America from Londonderry, Ireland. It does not clarify whether county or city is meant, so all we can do it report the words of the reference. There really is no argument here, unless someone can find another reference to confirm what was meant (I haven't been able to find one). I'll change the article now. BTW, Northern Ireland didn't exist in the 1740s so to mention it in this context is stupid. Next, although the Manual of Style says use Derry for the city and Londonderry for the county, that does not give carte blanche to editors such as User:Bjmullan to trawl the encyclopedia changing every instance (of Londonderry to Derry, usually) he comes across. This is on a par with changing BrE to AmE, or vice vera, and is a massive cause of aggravation. LevenBoy (talk) 12:21, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Since it's unclear whether the reference is pointing to city or county I've linked Londonderry to the disambiguation page. LevenBoy (talk) 12:29, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

If we don't known which is being referred to (the city or county), then stick with Londonderry. I assume that was the name for both, in that time frame. GoodDay (talk) 15:49, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

The argument being used here for LDerry is specious, as it means every time any source refers to just "Londonderry" or "Derry" people could argue it is not clear what it refers to, and also we don't generally link to disambiguation pages either. Mo ainm~Talk 10:54, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Not so. Often it is clear what is meant - city or county - but in this case it simply isn't. Do you know something we don't, have you found a reference? If the answer is no in each case then your change is potentially erroneous, given as how in the world of Wikipedia, though not in the world at large, Derry means the city. I take your point about the disambig page, so all we're left with is not to link. I'll fix it so the text is in line with the reference and I'll delink the term. LevenBoy (talk) 11:54, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree. The county is not called "Londonderry", it is called "County Londonderry". This is nothing more than an obvious attempt to bypass the manual of style, and should it continue I will ask for a clarification at the manual of style's talk page. I find it amazing that so far this dispute over the removal of "London" from "Derry" in accordance with the guideline has caused all this discussion here, plus threads on the Village Pump, ANI and Wikiquette Alerts. O Fenian (talk) 11:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I expect the only reason you agree is that your version removes London from Derry. LevenBoy (talk) 11:54, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

AGF LevenBoy, the same could be thrown at you that you only disagree because... But we should comment on the content and not the editor. Mo ainm~Talk 11:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I am probably the only one here, no offence, that does NOT have a COI or give one iota of a damn about the politics behind Londonderry/Derry, the vast majority of the work on this article was done by me and the way the article looks does in fact reflect on me, I care only about the article, the sources says Londonderry, that is it, it has been pointed out here and at content dispute that linking to the county is acceptable. The IMOS is not the place to discuss this issue due to the COI editors there will have, the wider community at dispute resolution is in fact the place, the IMOS does not get to be decided by a small subset of the community and then enforced on the rest of us, it exists and applies only as far as the Wikipedia Community allows it to by consensus. It obviously does not have consensus to apply at this article. It is a guideline and there will be exceptions.Camelbinky (talk) 14:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The IMOS may not be the place to discuss this but neither is the Village Pump, ANI or Wikiquette Alerts. This is the place to discuss it. Also Camelbinky you do not own this or any other article on WP. We all have a right to contribute and we will continue to do so. The reference says Londonderry and not County Londonderry and the article has been changed to reflect the standard as laid down by the MOS. Could you also please stop accusing other editors of POV or COI. Do you want me to fill this talk page with diff's of when I have changed Co Derry to Co Londonderry? If someone can produce a reference that it was County Londonderry I will be the first to change it. Bjmullan (talk) 14:42, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

@ Camelbinky and what COI have I got? Mo ainm~Talk 14:50, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

As a perfectly neutral outsider, let me just clarify one thing: O Fenian is right about the phrase not being ambiguous. If the county and not the city was meant, any well-informed source would have said "County X"; that's a very firm convention for Ireland, AFAIK. "Derry" or "Londonderry" by itself alwys refers to the city. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:42, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

As another neutral outsider, I'd point out that the decision on what title we choose for the article on Derry (and for related articles) need not have any bearing on what name we use to refer to that city in other contexts. We can choose either Londonderry, Derry or any of the stroked forms, depending on what is most appropriate to those contexts. It would seem that in the historical context here (at least based on what the source says) "Londonderry" is the most appropriate wording, so we can happily use that.--Kotniski (talk) 15:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Bj, stop with the ownership crap because I have never said I owned this article. It is a fact that I created the article and I have contributed to this article more than anyone else, by stating those facts I am not claiming ownership in the least I am stating I have been here longer and this article reflects on my ability as an editor, I have even removed this from the list of articles I have on my user page of "articles I have significantly worked on and proud of" because at this point I cant be proud of how the article looks; and you throwing out that I have ownership problem is more BS intended to shut me up and needs to stop, I have a right to disagree especially when I'm right. I'm sick of you claiming that because I disagree with you I must have ownership issues. I think Kotniski hit the head on the nail and that we can use Londonderry as the word linked to Derry. If you still disagree despite him being the forth or fifth person to state that then I dont know, you'll have to take this elsewhere. We dont have to convince you, consensus doesnt mean you need to agree.Camelbinky (talk) 20:48, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

You are quick to throw accusations around Camelbinky, you still haven't told me my COI, yet when something is levelled at you, you throw your toys out of the pram and claim that because other prople edited this article you are no longer proud of it and have removed it from your hall of fame, certainly seems like ownership of an article to me, well this is the encyclopedia anyone can edit and the edits comply with a long standing MOS that came about to stop conflicts like this from happening. Mo ainm~Talk 21:04, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

When I said I dont have a COI it wasnt directed at you nor did I have anything to say to you. I am sick of people in discussions making it about me. I never accused you of anything and would wish you and everyone would stick to the topic, I am not the one making this about me, I am simply responding the crap thrown at me. Apparently if you cant convince people an idea is right and just then all you have to do is talk about others. You dont like me, then dont mention my name, dont talk about me. Easy way to keep this not about me. I dont see you contributing anything to this article, find some nice facts about the article and make it better. You make it seem like I'm upset because other people are editing this article, I'm upset that no one here is actually editing the article! You people havent done crap to this article other than argue about a place thousands of miles away from it. Yes, I have a right to be upset about that, and that doesnt make it ownership, it makes me want Wikipedia to be the best it can be. So stop talking about me!Camelbinky (talk) 21:13, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

You have said on this talk page so far "Excuse me, but I am probably the only one here, no offence, that does NOT have a COI..." and you have also said "You are a disruptive POV pusher..." as I said you are the one who is throwing accusations around. Mo ainm~Talk

I was not responding to you nor was I talking to you! Just because my post was right after yours doesnt mean you were even in my thoughts! Neither was about you! Stop thinking this is all about you.Camelbinky (talk) 21:40, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I am not claiming you personal attack on O Fenian was about me I know it wasn't as to the COI it is reasonable to assume, that a comment after mine stating everyone except you has a COI, is about me. Maybe you need to go have a nice cup of tea. Mo ainm~Talk 21:45, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Or maybe we can actually do editing and compromise instead of people talking about other people?! This article has five or six editors, all of whom I am sure want Wikipedia to be the best it can be, at this small article imagine if our collective talents went to making this a fully complete article it would have been promoted to GA by now if everyone actually cared about the article. All I see is arguing about Londonderry/Derry, how does that improve the article one way or another? You can claim this is ownership all you want but the truth is that when this dies down and everyone goes back to articles and topics they are interested in, but that still leaves ME behind watching for vandalism, adding information that I find as me and others in the New York's Capital District wikiproject create related articles and make sure they are linked to this one and this one to the new articles and info is updated as new events occur in the hamlet. If I'm wrong and others will stay and add info and copyedit and research and improve the article and watch for vandalism then I am HAPPY to say I'm wrong and apologize. I seriously am not upset others are here paying attention to this article, I am upset everyone here is worried about what to call Derry and not actually paying attention to this article! That is the opposite of ownership and its insulting to me that you keep saying I have ownership issue over this article.Camelbinky (talk) 22:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I understand that this article and lots of others articles are important to you. What you need to understand is that Derry is just as important to other editors. Let's draw a line under this. This article is on my watch list and will remain there so I will look out for vandals here like I do at all the other article I watch. Let's us all have that cup of tea (or beer) that Mo ainm suggested :-) Bjmullan (talk) 22:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Then I apologize for saying no one is going to stick around and will accept that offer of tea and thank you for joining the fight against vandalism on this page.Camelbinky (talk) 23:32, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Now that we have taken a step back from talking at each other lets get on to the discussion, my feeling is that the source was refering to the city as otherwise it would have stated County Londonderry, if editors are saying that they are "not sure if it the county or city" is being used then a similar case could then be made that editors change all links to "London" in case they refer to "Greater London" or the "City of London". So to avoid this naming dispute here on wikipedia we use the IMOS which says that we use Derry for the city and LondonDerry for the County. Mo ainm~Talk 10:33, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Well this is all very interesting! Here we have an American geography article, totally uncontroversial, everyone minding their own business as the article develops, then out of the blue it pops up on the radar of an Irish nationalist editor intent on trawling the encyclopedia to replace every occurrence of Londonderry (the city) with the nationalist alternative of Derry. The result is edit wars, me getting blocked by a "shoot first ask questions later" admin (no one else blocked, by the way) and thousands of words of mildly heated debate - and for what? Just so that an editor can impose his POV across the Atlantic and follow this up with an "I'm watching" threat that any reversal will be classed as vandalism. And as if it really matters to this article whether it's Derry or Londonderry! For my part, the source says Londonderry and that's good enough. As for the MOS, which is always held up as a kind of bible in these nationalistic POV-pushing disputes, it's a guideline, nothing more, nothing less. We don't have to slavishly follow it, and this article is a good case in point where it arguably makes sense to deviate from it, but no, you're now being watched, so woe betide anyone who has the temerity to refer to a source that goes against the all powerful MOS. Of course the underlying problem is with the MOS itself. I think it's time to review it so that either version of the city name is acceptable and we should defer to the opinion of the first major editor; a bit like how the BrE vs AmE issue is dealt with. LevenBoy (talk) 18:41, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Your rant is noted. And your admirable job here on wikipedia of defending the realm and not allowing those swine nationalist POV pushers get their own way is also noted. Good work. Mo ainm~Talk 18:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! You can count on me. LevenBoy (talk) 18:53, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh! and I see you're one of them as well, judging by your edit history. And there was me thinking you were an American editor with a genuine interest in this article. LevenBoy (talk) 18:59, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

With respect, though I tend to agree with you about most of the things you wrote above, your own edit history doesn't exactly mark you down as a neutral American editor either... --Kotniski (talk) 19:02, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If the IMOS had been followed then we wouldn't have had "thousands of words of mildly heated debate..." this is the very reason that it is used. And judging by my edit history? WTF does that mean? You really should stop putting editors into catagories. Mo ainm~Talk 19:03, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not a neutral American editor, as you note. I only came here because Camelbinky asked me to take a look, and to me it was clear that Londonderry was appropriate. As for Mo ainm, I make the judgement purely on your edit history and would draw attention to your numerous removals of the Ulster Banner. I'm not saying you're wrong to do so, but I just noted it. LevenBoy (talk) 19:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Has anybody come up with a source yet, clarifying if it's the city or the county? GoodDay (talk) 19:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I did look, but the only source I found was the one stating "Londonderry", without further clarification. LevenBoy (talk) 19:40, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Until a source is found identifying the place as the city, keep it as Londonderry. Besides, (just a hunch) the city itself was likely called that, in the 1740s. GoodDay (talk) 19:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Maybe there should be some sort of straw poll here, just to see what the majority view is. LevenBoy (talk) 19:49, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Local consensus cannot overrule a guideline, and neither is consensus determined by counting heads. O Fenian (talk) 19:51, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I think you'll find you're wrong on the first point, and I wasn't suggesting a straw poll as a means of determining consensus - "consensus" will never be reached here. The only hope is that the regular editors, who actually know something about the subject of the article, manage to shrug off the POV pushers and decide for themselves withoout interference. LevenBoy (talk) 19:57, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

My offer still stands

Since which city, town or village in Ireland the person came from is completely irrelevant to the sentence in question, my offer to remove the city still stands. Quick and painless. O Fenian (talk) 19:52, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

This is a quite appalling suggestion! Remove valuable content just to appease POV pushers; disgusting. It's a tactic used by the anti-British Isles brigade, where we've even had articles PRODed in an attempt to remove British Isles from the text. LevenBoy (talk) 19:57, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

There's another option. Use both, in a past & present tense form. Example - Londonderry (now Derry). GoodDay (talk) 20:02, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately that is incorrect. The city is now called both Londonderry and Derry. LevenBoy (talk) 20:17, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Londonderry (now Derry) is good enough for me. What say others? PS - Londonderry or Derry is also acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 20:24, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

No, definitely not. It should be either plain Londonderry or plain Derry - the other suggestions just misinform or distract the reader. I would follow the source and say Londonderry, though I don't think it's such a big issue as has been made out.--Kotniski (talk) 20:48, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No GoodDay, as that implies only one name is used now when both still are. The removal wouldn't be to problematic, unless someone can explain how it would be, and because the British Isles brigade say it is a problem is not a reason. I still feel the IMOS is the only option here. Mo ainm~Talk 20:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Obviously, depriving readers of a piece of sourced information because editors can't agree on exactly the best way to present it is an absurd suggestion. There are two options here, both perfectly good - the matter of which option is slightly better than the other is one that can be resolved by civil discussion or a straw poll if necessary (in that process, editors will naturally take account of what is written in IMOS and other guidelines). --Kotniski (talk) 21:10, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

If it could be determined were in Derry he moved from it would help to solve this problem. Mo ainm~Talk 21:38, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately Mo that is not realistically going to happen unless that part of Northern Ireland happens to have great census records, land titles, etc and someone there can look up where he lived there. Otherwise WP:V (which appropriately is also known as Wikipedia:NOTTRUTH) states- The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. All material in Wikipedia articles must be attributable to a reliable published source to show that it is not original research,. It can be verified from that source that he lived in Londonderry, whether he truly lived in the county or the city is irrelevant (plus I assume the city is within the county? So if it was the city, its still TRUE he lived in the county? I dont know much about Northern Ireland so please let me know if I am assuming wrong). To say an American writing about this place in America is going to know the difference of writing "County" before Londonderry in order to mean the county is not a legitimate assumption to make about a local historian in the US, her credibility and status to make her book a RS in Wikipedia is based on her knowledge about the local history of the town of Guilderland, NY, not her knowledge of Irish etiquette. In the end nothing is knowable about where he came from other than it is Londonderry, it needs to be written as Londonderry on the article in my opinion, where it is linked to whether the county or the city I really dont care.Camelbinky (talk) 01:41, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

[unindent] Came here from WP:ANI, so I'm a complete outsider. Because we're talking about an American subject, we really aren't bound either to Derry or to Londonderry, so let's just overlook the Irish manual of style, which really wasn't meant to be applied rigo(u)rously to articles about small communities in the United States. That being said, I think we should go with "Londonderry" for two reasons: (1) Our source says "Londonderry", and it's virtually always a good idea to reflect the source. (2) Since the guy is a Scot, let's approach this from a Scottish context; he'd be more likely to have called the place "Londonderry" than "Derry", would he not? Nyttend (talk) 04:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

By the way, consider another contentious name — Danzig/Gdansk. Its notification template requires biographies of Germans and Poles to prefer the German and Polish names for the city respectively. Likewise, I think it a good idea to use the name a Scotsman would be more likely to use for the community. Nyttend (talk) 04:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Given that impartial individuals who are VERY well-versed in writing policies such as Kotniski, Dmcq, Nyttend, and Fences have all said very similar things about the word should say Londonderry, unless someone can come up with a very good reason (apart from "IMOS says") I am going to change the word to say Londonderry. Where it is linked to from there by default Londonderry itself is a redirect that goes to Derry, if someone wants it to go to the county instead that will need to still be discussed. Consensus isnt done unanimously, yes I know there may be some who dissent to this decision, but at this point it is quite clear that outside editors are coming here with the same opinion, especially given their knowledge and the fact that the four editors I mentioned have each affected Wikipedia policy more than the average editor I hope everyone can agree to defer to their expertise.Camelbinky (talk) 23:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Pissing contests involving editors supposedly having more say are of no relevance, no editor has any such sway. If you or anyone else want to propose a change the guideline you know where to go, until it is changed the city is refered to as Derry. O Fenian (talk) 23:11, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

How many people need to inform you that that is not how Wikipedia works?Camelbinky (talk) 23:26, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I am afraid it is how Wikipedia works. You are attempting to give people's opinions greater weight, while ignoring valid objections. Surprisingly the one place you have yet failed to forum shop the lame dispute is the place you should have gone in the first place, the guideline's talk page. You might want to read WP:CONLIMITED, that should explain that a few die-hards to do get to overrule guidelines on a whim. O Fenian (talk) 23:29, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:IAR, we can occasionally make exceptions to guidelines, and given the fact that most people coming here are in favor of including "London", the "few" here are those seeking to apply this MOS to a page to which it really wasn't meant to apply. Nyttend (talk) 00:44, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I count plenty. And guidelines can be ignored, providing there is a legitimate reason, and none has so far been provided as to why it is so important to sacrifice consistency for this article. You also neglect the important part of ignore all rules, exactly how is adding "London" actually improving the encyclopedia in any way whatsoever? O Fenian (talk) 00:53, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

(1) Using London makes more sense in the context, since this guy would be more likely to use "London", and the source talks about London; anyway, Americans are more familiar with the name of "Londonderry" (the GNIS shows that there are many more places in the USA named "Londonderry", "North Londonderry", or similar variants than there are "Derry"), so it's more understandable to the people who are most likely to read this article. Moreover, it's eminently helpful to ignore guidelines that aren't really applicable; you'd be only right to tell me to bug off if I tried to impose WP:USSH on an article about highways on the island of Ireland. As the intro to WP:IMOS says, it's meant for Ireland-related articles. This one really isn't Ireland-related, so IMOS doesn't apply here. Nyttend (talk) 01:07, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Citations needed for above claims by Nyttend. "...isn't Ireland-related..." is Derry not in Ireland? And yes you would use WP:USSH on an "Irish" article if the naming was done wrong like it is here. Mo ainm~Talk 09:44, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

So what Nyttend is essentially saying is that "Derry" or "Londonderry" (and equally "County Derry" or "County Londonderry") should be used according to the preferences of the person being referred to in the article? How on earth is that improving the encyclopedia in any way? That will create inconsistencies in terminology across thousands, if not tens of thousands, of articles! Why exactly does the manual of style exists in the first place, and I do not mean just the Ireland related manual of style? O Fenian (talk) 11:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

That's fairly normal, when the same place (or anything else) is commonly referred to by reliable English sources using different names. In any given context, we tend to use the name that those sources would be most likely to use in that context (though obviously without ungainly switching between different forms in the same article). We do this with places that have (had) both Polish and German names, for example. I don't see any need for Derry/Londonderry to be any different. We will come to mislead our readers if we create the impression that the city is only ever referred to in good sources as Derry, and the county as Londonderry. --Kotniski (talk) 12:10, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

So tell me Kotniski how did you come to the conclusion that people from Scotland are more likely to call Derry Londonderry? Do you know who the old enemy is? The name is Derry and will remain Derry as per the MOS and no number of well-versed in writing policies editors will change it here. If you want to change it then take it to the appropriate place. Bjmullan (talk) 21:08, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

This is the appropriate place as you've been told repeatedly here and at the Village pump! Guidelines do not determine what we must or must not do! They only help us decide at discussions like this and we have every right to use IAR in ignoring them or using common sense on when there are exceptions to the "rule". You desperately need a lesson on how policy works on Wikipedia. At this point you're just being disruptive.Camelbinky (talk) 21:48, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Can we not get into who is being what name calling again please. And can other editors also not invoke IAR because AGF they are trying to improve Wikipedia by following a certain guideline. Mo ainm~Talk 21:54, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd still think Londonderry or Londonderry (now called Derry) is a reasonable solution, when keeping in mind that the time-period is 1740's. GoodDay (talk) 22:04, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

And again no it isn't because it implies that LDerry is now called Derry. Mo ainm~Talk 22:09, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

At least have Londonderry linked to Derry, if it's the city. GoodDay (talk) 22:11, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

If it is the city then according to IMOS we use Derry. Mo ainm~Talk 22:13, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Somebody, get me medical help. GoodDay (talk) 22:14, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Look, "now called Derry" or similar constructs are certainly not appropriate, because they mislead. It was called Derry then and it is called Derry now. It was also called Londonderry then and is called Londonderry now. Both words refer to the same place; whichever one we choose, it will have the correct meaning. It really barely matters which of the two we choose, as long we don't let the length of the argument fool us into thinking that some third option is needed as a "compromise". We certainly don't have to follow a guideline that doesn't seem to have been formulated with this kind of article in mind; on the other hand, we don't have to follow the exact wording that the source uses. However, when the entrenched POV guardians of various colours are factored out, there seems to be almost unanimity that "Londonderry" is at least slightly better in this context, so I would suggest sticking with that for now (particularly as I believe it was the wording chosen by the original author of the article). It certainly isn't worth arguing about any longer.--Kotniski (talk) 10:06, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Kotniski you can't factor out anyone, neither can you say that the guidelines were not formulated for this type of article. They were formulated exactly for this type of article. Bjmullan (talk) 10:18, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree Bjmullan, this is the exact reason why we have a Manual Of Style. If not we have different uses on each article leading to massive discussions and no consistency. Mo ainm~Talk 10:24, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Overall Wikipedia thinking is that we don't need or desire consistency between articles in the terminology used to refer to the same things - in some contexts one term may be appropriate, in others another. This is certainly true about place names. There's only a massive discussion when POV-pushers come along, and I don't think editors who genuinely want to write a better encyclopedia should be held hostage by such people (though unfortunately I see they very often are).--Kotniski (talk) 10:49, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't call you a POV pusher for wanting to go against the IMOS. But suppose if you want to call editors it I suppose the cap fits then. Mo ainm~Talk 11:04, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

When oh when will editors like you Kotniski assume good faith? I made the offer before but again do you want me to fill this page with diff of when I have changed Co Derry to Co Londonderry? Stop accusing others and perhaps look at your own motives for keeping this discussion alive. Bjmullan (talk) 13:35, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

If the city is known by both names, use Derry/Londonderry. GoodDay (talk) 19:12, 30 July 2010 (UTC) Came across this page just now and noticed a couple of comments saying that as he was a Scotsman he would likely have called it Londonderry. I've no idea if he did or not (does anyone?), but I thought I'd mention that I'm a Scotsman and would call it Derry. Thought I'd point out that the argument for that doesn't fly. Jack 1314 (talk) 20:27, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

The original article called it Londonderry being its proper name so thats good enough for me. --87.115.163.55 (talk) 12:25, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Who can tell if the reference is to the city or the county? I'd say follow the reference. Use Londonderry. --HighKing (talk) 21:47, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

The name Derry was superceded by Royal Charter many years ago giving us the name Londonderry. Some political activists never have accepted this situation but that doesn't change anything. These same individuals tried to change the name by raising a court action a few years ago and were ruled against. They still don't accept the judgement. Nothing changes really, the name is Londonderry. One cannot go around changing historical facts just because one doesn't agree with them. The article states Londonderry in Ireland and that is good enough for me. --87.115.163.55 (talk) 01:25, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Using exactly that reasoning, the Republic of Ireland article should reside at Ireland. But it doesn't. Consensus is what we go by. Feel free to retest consensus. --HighKing (talk) 22:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

If we go with source here do we go with source at every other article? And when we have two conflicting sources what do we do then? Just let them fight it out? This article is not a special cases and therefore we will go with the MOS otherwise we will start a editing war over 1000s of articles and I bet few here will be there to help. Bjmullan (talk) 09:41, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

And a key point is that the source is not clear on whether they are referring to the city or the county, and a case could be made for either. --HighKing (talk) 22:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Very well, let's go with Londonderry. Afterall we're talking about the 1740's, when there was a Kingdom of Ireland. -- GoodDay (talk) 21:19, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

If you want to retest consensus GoodDay, go ahead. Otherwise your comment flies in the face of the MOS and ignoring consensus. Or are you taking sport feeding the trolls again? --HighKing (talk) 22:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, it was in the 1740's. Besides: you just said yourself (at 21:47 post of July 31) to use Londonderry. GoodDay (talk) 23:09, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I misunderstood. To be clear, when I say "Londonderry" I'm referring to County Londonderry. There's no indication whether the source refers to the city or the county, so linking to the county will be "correct" and in line with the reference. Perhaps you also meant the same thing?? Your comment indicated you wanted to link to Londonderry, which goes against the IMOS - hence my comments above. --HighKing (talk) 23:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

That's workable, indeed. Many disagree over the name of the city & whether the article is speaking of the city or county. However, nobody is disputing that the city is within the county. Therefore a [County Londonderry|Londonderry] linkage would be best. GoodDay (talk) 23:56, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. --HighKing (talk) 00:01, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I also agree as I now believe that the reference is referring to the County and not the town. Came across this reference which uses terms like Donegal (and not Donegal Town), Mount Joy, Upper Paxton and Brecknock. All of which are counties/townships and not specific towns/villages. Bjmullan (talk) 16:43, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Also agree per the source found by Bjmullan which clarifies that it is the County and not the city that is being referred to. Good work Bjmullan. Mo ainm~Talk 18:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey but the Ireland manual of style does not apply to this article remember? O Fenian (talk) 20:50, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Ya could've left it as [County Londonderry|Londonderry], but it's no biggy. GoodDay (talk) 22:17, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Someone can shoot me for speaking up, but... Bj and O Fennian and Mo do you all realize you have all read that "source" totally wrong? McKown is listed as being for Hannover, NOT as being for Londonderry, the semi-colon being AFTER his name puts him in the category before Londonderry. Even if it eliminates your acceptance I have to point out that it is not a valid source for anything related to any McKown being from Londonderry as it does not in fact say that.Camelbinky (talk) 22:49, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

What I was getting at Camelbinky was at the time it seems that it was more likely that people were listed not by their specific town but by a region (township etc.) and that this made it highly likely that the reference to Londonderry was the county. Bjmullan (talk) 15:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

What? Are you serious? Because another source uses Londonderry as referring to a county, suddenly you say that our source must be too? Hey, I'm grateful for you guys giving up and finally accepting consensus but come on, just say it and not hide behind a source that has nothing to do with Londonderry or McKown other than it happens to have both names in it! (and the names are not even associated with each other in that source!) If that was all you needed I could have given you PLENTY of sources that said Londonderry and meant the county instead of the city without saying explicitly "county". You should have asked. Your "source" was a book about Pennsylvania, not even within 100 miles of McKownville! Hide behind that source if it makes you feel better that you were wrong and now you can claim you werent wrong you just found a better source that clarified things.Camelbinky (talk) 12:49, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think your comment is helpful Camelbinky, wikipedia works on consensus not "Ha I am right and you are wrong". Also are you now claiming that you are aware of other sources that show that the county is being refered to and not the city? If you knew the source was refering to the county then why did you insist on going against the IMOS? Mo ainm~Talk 12:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

If that's the case Camelbinky maybe you should have read the thread a bit better as a large part of the discussion was about if the reference was related to the town or county. If a reference comes to light that it was the town then I will change it to Derry as per the MOS. And as for all the discussion about it was called Londonderry at the time maybe those people should look at the article on Frederick Hervey, 4th Earl of Bristol who was the Bishop of Derry from 1768 to 1803. Bjmullan (talk) 13:04, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Wow, AGAIN please take time to read what I write instead of reading what you want to see. I NEVER said I had a source that said THIS source we are talking about is itself talking about the county as opposed to the city. In fact no one has yet found a source that does say that! YOUR source most definitely does not say that the source we are using in this article is talking about the county and not the city. You keep insinuating that it does. It does not. The source we are using for this article is unclear whether it is the city or the county. But since the city IS in the county, the majority of us saw no problem with that as saying the county was not a contradiction. What I did say in my last post was that if all you needed was ANY source that it itself used the word Londonderry as meaning the county without explicitly stating the word "county" then I could have supplied numerous sources that said that. However no one will ever be able to know what the author (Alice Begley I believe is her name) meant or what her own source was unless we ask her. I'm currently about 15-20 minutes from her if you'd like me to look her up in the phone book and end this discussion now with a definitive answer. You keep saying that you "have a source that says it was the county" she is referring to, YOU do not.Camelbinky (talk) 13:08, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

That's a great suggestion Camelbinky and if she meant the town would you mind changing the article to say Derry. Thanks & have a nice weekend. Bjmullan (talk) 13:14, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, if she's approachable and she hasn't included a source for her reference in her book, it would be cool to ask what her source was. Could you actually do that? --HighKing (talk) 17:56, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes to HighKing since you asked nicely I can actually attempt that. No to Bjmullen I would still, as would everyone else, say it doesnt matter if it is in fact the town she is referring to because IMOS violates Wikipedia policy and POLICY TRUMPS GUIDELINES! IMOS is invalid and does not apply to non-Irish articles by its own admission!Camelbinky (talk) 06:49, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Don't waste your time so Camelbinky as it will not help the matter. Also what policy does IMOS violate? Mo ainm~Talk 12:11, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

The MOS which is policy and supersedes guidelines in all cases states that historical names are to be used in those contexts when it is refering to a historical time period and that you should generally follow the sources! The MOS also states that the "style used by the first significant editor" to the article (YES THAT IS ME and that is not being ownership that is a quote from the policy and in this case it refers to ME) is to be followed and not changed to another style. So yes in this discussion what I decided when I wrote this article does mean more than following a guideline because the policy gives my decision way back precedence.Camelbinky (talk) 15:23, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Can you link me to the policy that IMOS violates? Mo ainm~Talk 16:23, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Why won't yas use [County Londonderry|Londonderry]? GoodDay (talk) 16:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you freakin' kidding me Mo? When I said MOS in my last post what did you think I was talking about? I have to actually put in a link for WP:MOS? You couldnt type that in?! You have got to be kidding me. Please dont skim as you have shown that must be what you do to my posts. Yes I know you could cherry pick and come back with examples from the MOS that could on face show you are right, those parts arent exactly as strong as you may believe though. I really dont think you have may have much experience with policies, I really wish you would defer to those who know policies and have worked on a lot of them like Kotniski, What, and Dmcq, its kinda what they do and policies and the 5P really do reflect their hard work on compromising with each other and other editors who equally work hard. We are all equal, but some have more knowledge than others. Just because IMOS is your little pet doesnt mean whatever is written in the IMOS becomes law (in fact there is NOTHING, other than actual US laws and Foundation handed down rules, that can not be overruled by consensus on an article; you may disagree but your consent or unanimity in a consensus is not required).Camelbinky (talk) 17:18, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Right so, just needed you to show me the link, also FYI the MOS is not policy it is a guideline like the IMOS, so what you are saying is my guideline is better than your guideline. So you have mentioned policy again is their a link to any policy that the IMOS violates like you claim or are you using untruhts to claim you have policy backing you when in fact all you have is another guideline. Mo ainm~Talk 12:08, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

What is all this bitching about now? O Fenian (talk) 17:23, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Good question O Fenian. I'm still waiting for that phone call. And trust me if it's Derry then it will be Derry and if it's County Londonderry then it will be County Londonderry and if the author doesn't have a WP:RS then it will be removed. Cos this article isn't special and isn't above the MOS. And if in doubt I can always call on IAR or just throw all my toys out of the pram and SHOUT at people :-) Bjmullan (talk) 00:10, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Let's just use the county, as there's no disputing the place-in-question is within County Londonderry. -- GoodDay (talk) 18:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know why people are twisting what the source says. This tends to be what happens when nationalist POV-pushers come to weave their evil on an article - even if they are prevented from getting what they want, the article still suffers, because something has to be done to make them go away. The source says Londonderry, we should say Londonderry (or we could say Derry, as it means the same thing, but there seems no reason to make even that small change here). To have suddenly decided that the author didn't really mean Londonderry but County Londonderry is just low-level original research. If we don't 100% trust what this author says, then attribute it in the text: "...who, according to XYZ, ... moved to Londonderry...". Another example of the same phenomenon is that we now seem to have a pointless footnote explaining exactly what political entities this county is/was in - obviously so far off topic as to be a simple distraction to readers, but of course we have to have it in because it's the matter of interest to the people who have turned up at this innocent article with their POV banners. --Kotniski (talk) 13:14, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Kotniski, the footnote is my fault and was not done out of any POV-pushing. I do apologize for it but here is my reasoning why I felt it necessary- due to the POV-pushing going on here and the attention this article was getting from both Northern Ireland Unionist supporters and from Republican supporters I didnt want in the future for Unionists to come across this article and start an edit war regarding whether to say in the prose that Londonderry is in Northern Ireland and not in Ireland (even though Londonderry was in Ireland at the time we are talking about). Similar to how even though the city was called Londonderry at the time we are talking about some still want it called Derry. Not not just POV-pushers, plus there's the occasional innocent editor/reader who stumbles across this article sees that County Londonderry was in Northern Ireland even though this article says Ireland and causes a stink without knowing what they are talking about. So to preempt any edit warring or long discussions I felt that at least a temporary footnote explaining the Kingdom of Ireland and political structure of County Londonderry at the time would be appropriate for the time being, a footnote being less intrusive than anything else in the prose. Plus I dont plan on leaving Wikipedia for quite awhile so when I see this article going back to its quiet little life of about 10 views a day I can always remove the footnote.Camelbinky (talk) 13:50, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't know who added the footnote, and I certainly didn't mean you were POV-pushing by adding it, but as your explanation shows, the fact that you felt the need to add it is the fault of the POV-pushers who are allowed to turn up and set the editing agenda.--Kotniski (talk) 14:33, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Don't be such a hypocrite because your mate added the note it is not POV pushing but if someone else did it is cop on would you. Mo ainm~Talk 14:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Got there before me Mo. Bjmullan (talk) 15:13, 13 August 2010 (UTC)