Talk:Max Verstappen/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Nationality

He's actually a dual national. In addition to being Dutch he holds Belgian nationality as well through his Belgian mother Sophie Kumpen. I have found this source in Dutch clearly stating he holds a Belgian passport. Tvx1 (talk) 17:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Since no one raised any objections, I've been Bold and updated his nationality information. Tvx1 (talk) 18:31, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Age at the day of his debut

Number of days until his debut: It is stated in the text that Verstappen will be 17 years and one hundred sixty-six days old when he debuts during a Formula One Grand Prix. I, however, beg to differ. I calculated it should be 167 days instead of 166.

Here's why: - The 2015 Grand Prix of Australia commences on Sunday, March 15. - Birthdate Max Verstappen: September 30 1997. - He turned 17 on September 30 2014. That day marks the first day of his eighteenth year of his life as the 365 days to make up one year were obviously reached at the 29th of September. - Calculation of the subsequent days of his eighteenth year of his life until his debut:

        * October:             31 days
        * November:            30 days
        * December:            31 days
        * January:             31 days
        * February:            28 days
        * Debut in March:      15 days (you should count the 15th of March as well since Verstappen will debut that day)     

This totals up to: 1 + 31 + 30 + 31 + 28 + 15 = 167 days. 77editor77 (talk) 15:43, 12 January 2015 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 77editor77 (talk • contribs) 13:09, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

All a bit hypothetical. The race has not taken place yet; it may be on a different date; he may not be driving; the calculations look like original research to me.SovalValtos (talk) 17:23, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

No, it's 166 days. The day of the race (yes, it is hypothetical at the time of writing) is not counted. On the second day of a child's life he or she is one day old. In the eighteenth year of Verstappen's life he is seventeen years old. So until March 15th 2015 has ended Verstappen is 17 years and 166 days old. By the way, I hardly think that adding up days can count as original research. --Kletzmer (talk) 15:07, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Records may never be broken

Since the rules have been changed so that under-18s cannot compete from 2016, it is probable that the records Verstappen sets before his 18th birthday – youngest ever participant, youngest ever points-scorer – will never be broken. Should this fact be mentioned in the article? There is at least one source that says so: The Standard (Hong Kong). --86.44.197.59 (talk) 10:07, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Daniil Kvyat was his predecessor as youngest ever points-scorer in Formula 1 and it is mentioned there, so why not here? Piet.Wijker (talk) 11:22, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

It is mentioned here that he is the youngest ever points-scorer. My question is, should it be stated that this record will probably never be broken? 86.44.197.59 (talk) 11:26, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion yes because, according to present rules, this is exactly the case. Regards, Piet.Wijker (talk) 14:46, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Rules tend to change over time though. Tvx1 17:41, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Tvx1. To say records will never be broken is crystal-balling, bearing in mind that the FIA said they would review these rules given the adverse effects it has on new talent coming up. I say no to that statement, which has no meaningful purpose. CtrlXctrlV (talk) 14:33, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Not with a word like never, no. The record won't be broken until the FIA changes it's mind and under-18s are allowed to compete again. Never is quite the assumption. --Falcadore (talk) 17:41, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Nationality of drivers

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Use both, move on. If you absolutely must' then change the infobox to clarify whether nationality is that of the driver or of his racing license, but rfc first. Guy (Help!) 22:55, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

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"The nationality that appears on the racing licence is the same one that appears on the driver's passport. This is not necessarily the same as the country issuing the racing licence. A Frenchman living in Germany can race with a German licence, but the nationality displayed would still be French. In order to race as German, the driver would need to have German nationality as well. Drivers with multiple citizenship choose their "official" nationality."

Since he's only a Belgian national and not a Dutch it should state Belgian. I know this case is unique since he choose to race under Dutch flag. But rules should be followed. --Wester (talk) 15:09, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

The nationality in the infobox is sporting nationality, i.e. the flag he races under. End of story. It's an F1 infobox and shows the nationality he uses in F1. It's also far from unique. Everything else goes in the text, as you are currently edit warring to insist upon, even though it's already there. Bretonbanquet (talk) 15:15, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

The sport nationality also follows rules. I linked them and you can read them. Those rules indicate that he's Belgian. Only Dual nationalities can choose but that's not the case here since he's only Belgian. Living there all his live. Read also this article: [1]. When he's 18 he may choose the desired nationality. Until then he's Belgian and ONLY Belgian. So everything he does until then should state Belgian and not Dutch. --Wester (talk) 15:18, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

You are confusing the nationality on the licence with the nationality of the licence. It's a Dutch licence so he races with the Dutch flag. That's all that matters in these cases. If it says on his Dutch licence that he's Belgian, that's marvellous, but it's not relevant either here or to the FIA. Bretonbanquet (talk) 15:21, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

It clearly states that the driver's passport is leading. This source does it right. --Wester (talk) 15:36, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what you are trying to say there. The F1 infobox is only concerned with the nationality a driver uses for the purposes of racing in F1. His passport nationality, "real" nationality or any dual citizenship issues are always described in the text. I understand that this is not easy to understand if you are not familiar with the sport, but those are the facts of this infobox. It has to be this way partly because we are only permitted to use a flag for sporting nationality, not for "real" nationality. Verstappen's sporting nationality is Dutch and that is very clear to see on the official website [2], all the usual reliable sources and the TV coverage etc. The picture you show isn't even remotely reliable. Bretonbanquet (talk) 15:47, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Sporting nationality is not distinct from real nationality. A Belgian national for instance can not compete for China just because he wants to. It's simple: he is a Belgian national and should be treated as a Belgian national. The rules are clear. It seems a mistake that Max Verstappen is even allowed to race under Dutch flag. I think F1 mistakenly thinks he has dual Belgian-Dutch nationality while in fact he only has a Belgian nationality.--Wester (talk) 16:27, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, they're clear to the rest of us, yes. Sporting nationality is distinct from "real" nationality, and I'm not going to explain it to you again. If you don't understand it, fine. The idea that you think the FIA have actually made a mistake is incredible, but it means nothing here. You are probably aware that removing the 3RR warning from your talk page doesn't mean it no longer applies. Why I was lenient over that, I have no idea. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:33, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

The rules of the "sporting nationality" are explained in the link I gave earlier: Nationality of drivers. It clearly state that the driver's passport is leading and that only dual nationals can choose. That does not apply to Max Verstappen. --Wester (talk) 16:36, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Leading? I'm not explaining it again, and you clearly feel that you are better placed than the FIA to decide about sporting nationality. Why you think your mistaken interpretation of a passage on Wikipedia carries more weight than the official F1 website is a mystery to me. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:42, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

No Wester, he's undisputedly a dual national. There is the source in the article affirming his Belgian nationality on one side, and his participation in the Formula 1 World Championship confirms his Dutch Nationality. He appears on the FIA's entry list with Dutch nationality. The International Sporting Code dictates that the nationality of drivers matches (one of) their legal nationalities. Thus he must have Dutch nationality as well, because otherwise he would not be allowed to drive under that one in the sport if hasn't. His situation is identical to Nico Rosberg's and Romain Grosjean's, who are driving in this sport this year as well. And you now what, I'm pointing this out even though I myself am Belgian. I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong here. Tvx1 16:46, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

No. Read this source. He only has a Belgian passport. That's why he travels with it, because he does not have a Dutch one. The only reason why he races under Dutch flag is because he feels more Dutch. But that does not make him a Dutch national or chance anything on the official situation. --Wester (talk) 16:54, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

And I can give you another source as well: [3] Conclusion: Max Verstappen is a unique Belgian and it's even in violation of the official code to race under Dutch flag. --Wester (talk) 16:57, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

So go and tell the FIA they're wrong, and when they admit it, tell us and we'll change it. Until then, we're done here. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:58, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia has to follow the rules and at least do it correct. --Wester (talk) 16:59, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

On the other hand, according to the Dutch law, he should have received Dutch nationality by birth through his father. Tvx1 17:02, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Because Max Verstappen was born in Belgium and lived their his entire life I think you should ask it first in the Dutch consulate. And apparently that hasn't happened. --Wester (talk) 17:09, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Where a person is born is not relevant for the Dutch law. It's not even mentioned at all. The only thing that counts is the nationality of either of the parents. And his father Jos Verstappen is clearly Dutch. Tvx1 17:11, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Until 2007 it was not allowed to have dual citizenship in Belgium. That's why they probably had to choose between Dutch and Belgian nationality and they choose the Belgian nationality. Something Max Verstappen apparently regrets now. But does not change the reality. Max Verstappen could have been Dutch because the nationality of his father but isn't. Although at the age of 18 he can choose to become Dutch citizen because his father is indeed Dutch. Until then he's a unique Belgian.--Wester (talk) 17:16, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

According to this and any other source I can find on that subject, the pre-2007 restriction on having dual nationality only applied if you acquired it by choice. e.g. if a Belgian above the age of 18 elected to take up an other nationality they would lose their Belgian one. However there was no such restriction if you acquired them by law (i.e. if you were born to parents having different nationalities, one of them being Belgian of course). Tvx1 17:33, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nationality: official rules according the FIA International Sporting Code

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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9.5.2 All Drivers , irrespective of the nationality of their Licence, participating in any FIA World Championship Competition, shall retain the nationality of their passport in all official documents, publications and prize‐giving ceremonies.

Now it's official: Max Verstappen is Belgian and not Dutch and F1 does not follow it's own rules by letting Max Verstappen participate under Dutch flag. Perhaps they are unaware that Verstappen has only a Belgian passport but we are. --Wester (talk) 16:45, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

What's official is that he plainly has a Dutch passport (presumably as well as a Belgian one) and that you are not as knowledgable as you thought you were. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:48, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

No. According his own mother and this source Max Verstappen has no Dutch passport. Only a Belgian passport.--Wester (talk) 16:51, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

No. You're just misinterpreting the source. It simply states he as a Belgian one [as well]. Nowhere in that article does it state he does not hold Dutch nationality. In fact, by law he received that by birth because his father is Dutch. Tvx1 16:54, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

This source is more clear about the fact that he has NO Dutch nationality. I quote: "“Max heeft alleen een Belgische identiteitskaart,” "--Wester (talk) 16:59, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

No, that source states that as far as his mother knows, he has only a Belgian identity card. How close is he to his mother? Are they speaking? As his mother and father separated under highly acrimonious circumstances, is he keeping the fact that he has a Netherlands passport from her? Is she claiming that he is Belgian in order to spite Dutch national hero Jos? After all, she claimed he assaulted her at one point though that was disproven in court. All guesses, but all viable reasons why she could now be claiming one thing, while the official recognition of the FIA says another. Sorry folks, he's a Dutchman as far as motor sport goes. Pyrope 19:13, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Okay, let us look at the sources:

• Official FIA entry list: Dutch
• Australian GP entry list: Dutch
• Australian GP official media kit: Dutch
• Official F1 website driver profile: Dutch
• Toro Rosso profile: Dutch
• His own website (which uses a .nl suffix) states "The Dutchman"
• AutoSport article cited in article: "The Dutchman"

I think we can say he is Dutch. —Gyaro–Maguus— 19:37, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Like I have stated in the above section, he is both. This whole experience has been highly educational for me. I even learned a few things about my own country's nationality laws. Now there's lots of interesting information where. It's certainly valuable information for the body of the article that he has two nationalities. On the other hand we have the infobox. It is the project's consensus that the nationality field in a racing driver's infobox denotes the nationalit(y)(yies) the driver represent(s)(ed) during their career. As Max has only represented the Netherlands during his racing activity (to put it bluntly, if he were to win a race this season, I'm dead certain that it will be celebrated with the playing of the Wilhelmus) and in the context of his career has repeatedly expressed to consider himself more Dutch than Belgian, per our convention we can only list Netherlands there. I noticed that's how the article stands at the moment, so I'm sure that we are no giving our readers the most accurate depiction of the current events. I'm Belgian myself and I would love Max to drive for Belgium instead, so that I could root for a compatriot but sadly I had to accept he prefers to represent the Netherlands. So, I'm putting my Belgian hope on Stoffel Vandoorne instead. Tvx1 20:06, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

No he is not both. He only has a Belgian citizen as mentioned by his mother. You're earlier conclustion that he most have a Dutch passport because his father is Dutch is wrong since Belgium does not allowed dual citizenship before 2007. So before 2007 (and Max Verstappen is born in 1997) parents had to choose and apparently a Belgian citizenship was choosen.--Wester (talk) 20:54, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

No your assumption is wrong. Read the source I have provided. Dual citizenship by law was never disallowed in Belgium. Only voluntary dual citizenship was not allowed. Tvx1 21:03, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

"Een kind van een ongehuwde Nederlandse vader en een niet-Nederlandse moeder moet worden erkend door de Nederlandse vader voor de geboorte, zodat het kind een Nederlands onderdaan is bij zijn of haar geboorte. ". So before birth. That requires an action at the Dutch consulate if the child is born abroad (Max Verstappen was born in Belgium). So you're not automatically a Dutch citizen if have a Dutch father. So it's pointless to speculate about that. The fact is we have a reliable source (his mother) that he has no Dutch passport and we have not source that he is a Dutch national (as in: having a Dutch passport). --Wester (talk) 21:21, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Even if Tvx1 is incorrect (and I have no reason to think so) since 2007 it has been possible for Belgians to have voluntary dual citizenship, people can apply for additional nationalities long after birth, and we are basing our description of his racing nationality on reliable sources. The only sources you have to the contrary are reporting hearsay from his mother, and it doesn't matter how close the family member is, hearsay is hearsay. If you have a source directly attributable to Max himself then that would be more interesting, but to base claims that run counter to many many many reliable sources on hearsay from a third party who may (through ignorance or intent) be misrepresenting the truth isn't good enough. Sorry Wester, this is pretty cut-and-dried. You are wrong. Pyrope 21:17, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I have sources AND the official FIA International Sporting Code. No reliable source has been found so far that he is a Dutch citizen. Only a reliable source that he is NOT a Dutch citizen. --Wester (talk) 21:22, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

As has been explained to you a number of times, we're not talking about whether or not he's a Dutch citizen. He races under the Dutch flag, and that has been proven beyond any possible doubt. That also proves pretty squarely that he holds a Dutch passport anyway, but you won't accept it. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:26, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes it is since according to FIA International Sporting Code section 9.5.2 "All Drivers , irrespective of the nationality of their Licence, participating in any FIA World Championship Competition, shall retain the nationality of their passport in all official documents, publications and prize‐giving ceremonies."

The only thing that's new is that is was assumed that he's a Dual citizen. But now that article makes it quite clear that he's not. --Wester (talk) 21:29, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

There is an important word in that quote from your last claim, Wester: Een ongehuwde vader (= an unmarried father). Jos and Sophie were married at the time of Max's birth however. So everything happened automatically and no action was required. And I would like point out that to this day Max is a minor so legally he cannot at any point so far have voluntarily taken up a nationality. Everything regarding his nationality so far happened automatically by law. Tvx1 21:30, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry Wester, but your reasoning is garbage. The FIA state that he's Dutch (presumably following their own rules, unless you have PROOF otherwise), HE states that he's Dutch, reliable sources covering motorsport all report that he is Dutch. You have hearsay reported as coming from his mother that only states that so far as she knows Max does not have Dutch citizenship. As we have seen above, she may simply be ignorant of the truth or she may be trying to undermine his father, who knows. As Tvx1 has shown, if you look into Dutch nationality laws you will see that Max automatically gained Dutch citizenship simply because his father is Dutch and his parents were married at his birth. I'll say it again, you are wrong. Pyrope 21:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Tvx1 has not proven that he is Dutch. The fact that he CAN apply Dutch citizenship does not mean he IS a Dutch national. Especially since we have a serious source (his mother) that states that he has NO Dutch passport. I can't believe how suborn you guys are. Let's stick to official sources instead of inventing the truth. Why do you think he travels by Belgian passport? If he had a Dutch one he would have used it. --Wester (talk) 22:19, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Here's a novel thought for you: kids keep secrets from their parents! :-O Oh noes! Shocks! Also, people who have gone through messy divorces are not always the most reliable of sources where any information regarding their former spouse and their influence on their children are concerned. Sometimes (whisper it) they might even lie! :-o Oh noes again! More shocks! As his father is Dutch and his parents were married when he was born, Max was automatically considered a Dutch citizen the moment he popped into the world. No application was ever needed. That much is plain by reading the laws. Max himself claims to be Dutch, and that is a much more reliable source than his mother. As he is also a Belgian citizen he is likely not allowed to enter and leave Belgium (where he lives...) on a Dutch passport. This is a fairly common rule that people carrying multiple citizenships must always bear in mind. Just what in hell have you got against the Dutch anyway Westers, your bevahiour here is starting to look like you might be missing a screw in there somewhere. Pyrope 22:33, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Why would you assume that Max Verstappen hide his Dutch passport for his mother? That's a rather bizarre statement. And as for the Dutch nationality law. That just speculation. A thousand things could have happened. It could be possible that they resigned the Dutch passport and choose only a Belgian passport to avoid complication. It's also possible that they forgot to sign the birth at the Dutch authorities since he was born in Belgium and lived there all his live with no connections to the Netherlands. It's not because the law states that you're automatically Dutch that you also receive a passport. In conclusion, the Dutch nationality law alone is not good source to assume that Max Verstappen is Dutch national.

His mother clearly stated that they have to choose at the age of 18. I think his mother knows better then some Wikipedia users who claim to know all about Dutch nationality law.

It's clear that Max Verstappen wants to be Dutch and feels Dutch. But that does not mean he IS Dutch. There are tons of indications that claim he is NOT Dutch. So let's stick to those sources.--Wester (talk) 22:41, 29 March 2015 (UTC)--Wester (talk) 22:41, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes I have proven it. Dutch law literally states that you receive Dutch nationality if one of parent is Dutch, irrespective of birthplace. You automatically receive it. You don't merely become eligible to do so, you actually receive it. Max is still a minor, so he is not eligible to take up anything voluntarily at all. He receives everything automatically through birth. Regarding his passport, I mean the physical booklet, you normally have to apply for that in your place of residence. But Max is still a minor, so he is still under guardianship of his parents and he couldn't apply for it by himself. He resides in Belgium so the application happened in Belgium by his parent(s) on behalf of him and they probably went for the Belgian one because acquiring the Dutch passport booklet would have been much more complicated from their Belgian residence. And once they had the Belgian one, it was simply ridiculous to have a Dutch booklet produced as well, because it was redundant at that point. You only need one physical passport to travel abroad. Just because he doesn't have a physical booklet, it doesn't mean he is not a Dutch national at all. Furthermore, this states that even a passport for a minor is valid for 5 years so he might as well have his current passport from when he was as young as twelve, at which point he probably didn't even care which country it was from. And Pyrope, we don't need a passport to travel between Belgium and the Netherlands. We live in the Schengen area. All we really need to carry with us is our identity card. But there no border controls anyway. Tvx1 22:45, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, you've proven my point that he has NO Dutch passport. And 9.5.2 clearly states "All Drivers , irrespective of the nationality of their Licence, participating in any FIA World Championship Competition, shall retain the nationality of their passport in all official documents, publications and prize‐giving ceremonies.

Also it's not because a law of country A states that you're automatically this or that exists that is has any impact if you live in country B. Dutch consulates don't spam around passports if the parents didn't asked for them (even if they can receive them). That's what likely happened here. I believe that he can apply Dutch passport since his father is Dutch. But he has currently no Dutch passport and that's what matters. --Wester (talk) 22:51, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Your really sticking to this to rigidly here. But the above rule is actually proof of his Dutch nationality. As stated right there, they will retain their passport (read: legal) nationality in all official documents, publications and prize‐giving ceremonies. Well so far, all official documents, publications that have appeared show him as Dutch and I'm dead certain that any prize giving ceremony that includes him will include the Dutch flag and the Wilhelmus. That's more than enough proof. He simply cannot appear as Dutch in that information if he did not supply satisfactory documents proving his Dutchness. Tvx1 23:06, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

And we're no talking about random countries a and b. We are talking about two specifically named countries, Belgium and the Netherlands, whose nationality laws have been cited here. Belgium says you're automatically Belgian if you are born in Belgium to a Belgian parent (Verstappen satisfies that condition). The Netherlands say you're automatically Dutch if you are born to a Dutch parent no matter where (Verstappen satisfies that condition as well). He's automatically both by their laws. Those are LAWS. There simply is no disputing this. Even so we are not claiming in the article that he actually possesses a physical passport (=the booklet) from the Netherlands, but simply that he's a dual national (which is true) and that represents the Netherlands as a race driver (which is equally true). Tvx1 23:18, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

And yet Max himself states that he's Dutch but you don't believe him? Hmm... why? Take a look at all the other reliable sources that state he holds Dutch citizenship. Little known publications such as The Washington Post, or The Daily Telegraph, or Red Bulletin (published by, erm, his employers, who also signed that contract and might know a thing or two about his nationality). There are not "tons" of sources that claim he is not Dutch, there is one, from a person who may well have motivation for claiming him as a Belgian in spite of the facts. When only once source contradicts a huge number of other reliable sources then that once source must be considered suspect. Pyrope 23:09, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

That "Red Bulletin" link actually is the telegraph link again. Tvx1 23:34, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Apologies, corrected now. Interesting that Westers wasn't the one to spot that... Pyrope 00:14, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Let me put it in simple terms. It doesn't matter what the laws imply, it doesn't matter what the regulations imply. Verstappen races under the Dutch flag, and has never raced under the Belgian flag, or if he has (in which case, you'd need to provide a source saying so), he hasn't in some time. So, on the article, his nationality is to stated as Dutch, though it could be said that we should write "Belgian-Dutch", "Belgian-born Dutch" or something similar. This is not an arguable position. —Gyaro–Maguus— 22:10, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I can accept the Dutch flag in the infobox. Although it should also be mentioned that he effectively is a Belgian citizen and not a Dutch. We know that by this source.--Wester (talk) 22:21, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I have no problem with writing Belgian-Dutch. That's how it was written here until sometime last weak. Tvx1 22:47, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Last week it was not known that he has no Dutch passport. --Wester (talk) 23:10, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

The article never claimed he possesses a physical Dutch passport booklet. Tvx1 23:19, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

That is what's commonly understood by nationality and passport. Not the hypothetical Dutch nationality that you imply. If you don't have a passport than you are not a Dutch citizen.--Wester (talk) 23:43, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

That's patently wrong. You only need a passport if you travel abroad, and in case of the Netherlands that's outside of the Schengen Area. If a Dutch citizen by birth never leaves that area they can spend their entire life without having a passport. Tvx1 23:52, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

He is right, you can let your passport expire if you don't actually intend to leave the country you live in. —Gyaro–Maguus— 23:55, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

You don't even have to ever acquire one if you never intend to leave the country you live in or, in case of a country like the Netherlands, the Schengen area. They are not documents mandatory to have to be a legal person. It's merely a travel document. If you don't travel, you don't need it! Tvx1 00:49, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

For real

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I can't believe how clear sources are ignored here and a speculative interpretation of Dutch nationality law (which does not prove he has a Dutch passport) is more believed than an interview with his own mother that clearly states he has NO Dutch passport. A news fact picked up today by various news sources.

It's a fact that he is commonly called Dutch, feels Dutch and races under Dutch flag (whether that's rightfully is a different case). But that does not overrule the factual passport situation. It seems some people here are a bit suborn and believe there own reality.

Therefore I firmly oppose this edit by Pyrope that wrongly indicate that Max Verstappen does has a Dutch passport or Dutch nationality. That's speculative and sourceless and should have no place on Wikipedia. We follow sources.--Wester (talk) 23:10, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

At what point in that edit does it state that Verstappen has a Dutch passport??? There are plenty of very reliable sources (see the links above, that you were aware of before making this comment and those that I have since added) that state he has Dutch nationality. Not least of which are the man himself and his employers! I'm sorry, but lying about the strength of hard evidence provided to disprove your claims doesn't make you look at all credible, so you complaints about the factual accuracy of Wikipedia are naught but hollow cant. Pyrope 23:19, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

No. There is only the Dutch nationality law where that's based on. An indirect source. No real source that state that Max Verstappen has Dutch nationality. It's a bit WP:NOR which is not even allowed. If you indicate that Max Verstappen has Dutch nationality you should have a source and not just speculation. Also: according the FIA rules i quoted earlier nationality is not even that imporant. It's passport that is leading in this case. --Wester (talk) 23:35, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Read the Washington Post source please. Tvx1 23:36, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Where is that based on? I do not believe that Washington Post made an inquiry to find out what nationality Verstappen has. And citizenship seems to indicate 'passport' which is proved to be false. --Wester (talk) 23:40, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Not that much of concern for us. What matters is it's a reliable source. Tvx1 23:43, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

It's not because it's in the Washington Post that's it's a reliable source. Especially since that's simple journalism based on what's known last week (and perhaps even Wikipedia). The revelations by his mother were not known back then. His mother knows better than an American journalist working for Washtington Post. --Wester (talk) 23:47, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

You can't rip up one of Wikipedia's main principles on the basis of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. It doesn't matter whether the information is correct or not – it is from what is considered a reliable source, and thus it is considered both reliable and valid. —Gyaro–Maguus— 23:52, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I gave a newer source and a better one: an interview with his mother. That's more reliable than an American journalist.--Wester (talk) 00:05, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. In fact you don't need to have a physical passport to have the legal nationality of country. Not even an Identity Card. I myself had one from age 10 to 15 (because I travelled to the US when I was 10), after which I didn't have one for ten years until I applied for a new one when I went on holiday to Japan. I have been a Belgian national since birth though because I was born in Belgium to two Belgian parents. And If you would bother, the Washington post link literally states he holds dual citizenship. Tvx1 23:29, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

We have no proof of that Dutch nationality. That's only speculation of you based on the nationality of the father.

How about we simply make no mention of any passports or nationality law or nationality dispute whatsoever. We just say in the introduction:

"... Belgian-Dutch^[src] racing driver who races under a Dutch racing licence.^[src] He was born in Belgium to a Belgian mother and to Dutchman and former Formula One driver Jos Verstappen.^[src]"

Writing it like this avoids the issue that has arisen. It states that:

(a) Verstappen is half-Belgian, half-Dutch,

(b) Verstappen races as a Dutchman,

(c) Verstappen was born in Belgium (the place isn't that important and it can be mentioned in the brackets bit which contains his d.o.b.),

(d) Verstappen's mother is Belgian,

(e) Verstappen's father is Dutch and

(f) Verstappen's father also happens to be this famous Jos dude who drove in F1.

Following this, we can say he drives for Toro Rosso, is the sport's youngest person, etc. —Gyaro–Maguus— 23:43, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

That's perfect for me. Tvx1 23:49, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm quite happy with how it is now. Except that a detail is wrong: It states "he is also a Belgian national". We have no source that proofs that. His mothers contradicts this. Therefore it should state "he is a Belgian national".--Wester (talk) 00:04, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

And as pointed out, he himself contradicts his mother. Tvx1 00:06, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Where? He states that he feels Dutch and choose to race under Dutch flag. Not that he's a Dutch citizen.--Wester (talk) 00:13, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm really sorry but you're not applying good editorial practice with regards to an encyclopedia here. You're overvaluing one source and as a result refusing to accept to it might be disproven by any other source. What Sophie Kumpen's words patently do not do is proof that Max has not provided the necessary paperwork to the FIA to prove his Dutchness. It's blatanly her word versus that of Max and the FIA. Only, the FIA&Max are supported by other independent sources, whereas Sophie's stands by herself. It's really obvious what we have to do then. I'll remend you as well of the core principle of WP:Consensus. Well, I'm afraid no one agrees with you, so the consensus here is obvious. Tvx1 00:44, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure she knows better than an editor from Washtingon Post (which is the only sources you came up with) --Wester (talk) 00:49, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I didn't supply that source. And I'm even more sure that Max and the FIA, who go by the paperwork he supplies them, know even better than her. Tvx1 00:51, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Just to weigh in: I am not too familiar with F1's practices towards nationality. But if it is anything as in football (the proper football where you play a ball with your foot), then the governing body can choose to allow him to compete under a nationality of which he does not hold a passport, but for which he legally applies. As was mentioned above, he could still become a proper Dutch national when he turns 18. But anywho, it is insane to me how much can be written about this by so few people. Zwerg Nase (talk) 11:20, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Having thought again about this long and hard and having re-read the source on which this whole objection based, I have come to the contestation that all his mother mentioned is that Max has a Belgian Identity Card. This however does not exclude him of having Dutch nationality as well. So the raised objection that he does not have Dutch nationality is simply invalid because the provided proof of him not having it is no proof at all. Therefore I would like to kindly suggest us to restore the article to the version from before the dispute which more clearly explained him being half Belgian-half Dutch. Tvx1 20:23, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

She said Max only has a Belgian ID (the word only is important here). So he only has a Belgian passport, was born in Belgium, went to Belgian schools, lived in Belgium all his life. That makes him more Belgian than Dutch. Not 50-50 since he does not have a Dutch passport and the Dutch nationality is only theoretical based on own interpretations of Dutch nationality law (and not proven by sources). And that's what makes it special. That he races under Dutch flag despite all of this. That speciality must certainly be mentioned in the article.

In fact, further in the article it is said “Als Max op 30 september achttien wordt en mag kiezen, kiest hij de Nederlands nationaliteit. Dat heeft hij mezelf verteld. Zijn zusje van vijftien heeft me ook al gezegd dat ze op haar 18e kiest voor het Nederlanderschap,”. That even implies he is no Dutch national yet. --Wester (talk) 13:19, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

No, that word means absolutely nothing. As has been carefully explained to you on the Dutch wiki, not having a Dutch ID Card and not having a Dutch passport ≠ not having Dutch nationality. Furthermore, the statement that he can choose actually implies he does have both because if he only has a one, what choice would there be to be made? Yes, when he becomes a legal adult he can opt to drop his dual nationality and solely become a Dutch citizen. Time has come for you to drop the stick and move on. On of the core principles of wikipedia is that it operates on consensus and since nobody agrees with you here or on the Dutch language wiki the consensus is very obvious. Tvx1 13:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Off course the word 'only' is important. We can be sure of that Verstappen only has a Belgian ID and that he travels with Belgian passport. What more do you want? You on the other hand only have vague arguments that he could have a Dutch passport. Also the article is clear in the world 'becoming a Dutchman' (implying that he currently is not Dutch, at least not by passport). You're theory of dropping dual citizenship is pure speculation based on no sources.

Also bear in mind that Wikipedia is not a democracy. The source I provide is convincing enough. I did not made it up. And no proof of the contrary is provided by any of you. It seems you do not want to see the truth.--Wester (talk) 14:35, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

FYI, the Dutch Wikipedia page says "a driver with the Dutch and Belgian nationality, who races with a Dutch license." GameLegend (talk) 20:39, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

There is discussion there as well. --Wester (talk) 13:19, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

De Morgen

Update: Another article on the subject appeared in De Morgen: [4] "Volgens zijn Belgische moeder bezit Max alleen een Belgisch identiteitsbewijs. Hij heeft geen Nederlandse reisdocumenten". Also note that the argumentation of Jos Verstappen is complete against the official FIA Rules. Racing licence is nothing and nationality means also nothing. Passport is leading according Article 9.5.2. Could it be more clear? --Wester (talk) 15:06, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Again, having travel documents from one country does not exclude you from having the nationality of another. Moreover, there are two interesting quotes in that article:

“ Ja, Max reist met een Belgisch paspoort. Maar hij heeft nog een tweede nationaliteit: de Nederlandse. ”

which translates as:

“ Yes, Max travels with a Belgian passport. But he has a second nationality as well: Dutch. ”

and

“ In september, wanneer Verstappen 18 jaar wordt, kan hij als meerderjarige definitief voor de Nederlandse nationaliteit kiezen. Of hij dat gaat doen? "Als ik het hem vraag, zegt hij van wel", aldus zijn vader. ”

which translates to

“ In september, when Verstappen turns 18 and becomes a legal adult, he could choose to have purely Dutch nationality. Will he do that? "Whenever I ask him, he replies he will", his father told us. ”

So there you have it black on white from one of his parents. At present he has two nationalities. We never mentioned anything regarding a Dutch passport so I can't imagine what further objection you have? Tvx1 15:51, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

The FIA rules don't mention anything about nationality. They do mention passport.

Also you're second translation is wrong. "kan hij als meerderjarige definitief voor de Nederlandse nationaliteit kiezen" does not mean "purely" but "permanent". --Wester (talk) 16:10, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

We don't care about what passport Verstappen has. We care about his declared sporting nationality. Which happens to be Dutch. WP:DROPTHESTICK, you're not going to get anywhere. —Gyaro–Maguus— 16:22, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

No permanent is not a good translation in this case, because he would still have the option of having his nationality changed again in the future. Tvx1 19:05, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Have you seen Article 9.5.2. of the FIA Rule Book which is leading in this matter? --Wester (talk) 16:26, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Your entire argument hinges on the FIA breaking its own rules. Forgive us if we don't take that seriously. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:29, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Can you give substantive comments please. I am the only one here providing actual sources. What part of Article 9.5.2. you don't understand? --Wester (talk) 16:40, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you are the only one providing sources (that was sarcastic by the way). He don't care what the rules state. Obviously, if Verstappen is considered Dutch by the FIA, then surely he is following the rules to be Dutch, or as Breton mentioned above, the FIA have not kept to their own rules. Regardless, you aren't going to achieve anything in this particular endeavor. —Gyaro–Maguus— 16:46, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

(e/c) @ Wester: I understand it fully, so do the FIA, and they have allowed Verstappen to race under the Dutch flag. Per 9.5.2., that implies (not that it matters for our purposes) that Verstappen has Dutch nationality that satisfies their criteria. To argue otherwise is to suggest that the FIA break their own rules. That would plainly be a ridiculous argument. Plenty of sources have been supplied for you to state that he races under the Dutch flag. You endlessly dragging it out for reasons unknown will have no bearing on Verstappen's chosen sporting nationality. I have nothing further to say about it. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:49, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Those are no value sources since they do not deal with the passport an nationality situation. They just follow the choice of Max Verstappen and the flag behind his name. This discussion is about the real legal situation. And according FIA Rules the passport decides the 'sport nationality'. Nothing else. --Wester (talk) 16:49, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

You saying the FIA are not a reliable source for their own decisions pretty much sums up the value of your argument. I'm sensing something other than reasoned debate here. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:52, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

No, you aren't. Article 9.5.2 is perfectly clear. Max races as a Dutch national. Therefore, putting the two together, the FIA are plainly happy that Max is Dutch and has a Dutch passport. You have provided no evidence whatsoever that he does not have a Dutch passport except for one quote attributed to his mother who, as discussed ad nauseum above, may well be wrong. Her single quote is contradicted by multiple reliable sources (including Max's employers), by his appearance as a Dutch national in international motorsport, and by that very source that you have provided here: "Maar hij heeft nog een tweede nationaliteit: de Nederlandse"!! If a Belgian person lives in Belgium then they must travel in and out of Belgium on a Belgian passport. I know from my own holding of UK and Canadian travel documents that I must always travel into the UK on my British papers and into Canada on my Canadian papers. If I am travelling from one of those two countries to a third country I only use a single set of documents as mixing and matching causes more problems than it is worth. A friend of mine had UK, USA, Canadian and New Zealand travel papers and is forever getting himself told off by border agents for forgetting which one he used to enter or leave. Hence, it is perfectly understandable that Max, being Belgian as well as Dutch, having Belgian travel documents, and living in Belgium chooses to mostly travel on the Belgian documents. As Holland and Belgium are both Schengen countries the only time Max would absolutely have to travel on a Dutch passport is if he flew directly into the Netherlands from a non-Shengen nation. I'm sure that you probably won't be able to get your head around this, but so far you have provided absolutely no convincing evidence for what you are claiming. At your AN3 report you were right to say that Wikipedia is not a democracy; it is a meritocracy. So far nothing you have provided has much merit. Pyrope 16:56, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

You clearly don't understand Article 9.5.2. It states 'passport'. Not nationality. And Max has no Dutch passport and nobody has a source that contradicts this. Even his father confirms that he travels with Belgian documents. That is also to third party countries and not to Belgium alone. The rest of you post is just speculations. As with many here. I come up with sources, clear statements from both his father and his mother and you guys come up with speculations that he MIGHT HAVE a Dutch passport even though there are more indications (based on the statements) that he has not.

Although I admit it can be considered that he has also Dutch nationality because of his father. But that's quite irrelevant.--Wester (talk) 17:10, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Nope, wrong again. You really can't get you head around how your continual raising of Article 9.5.2 is actually undermining your own position, can you? His mother is your only source that states he has no Dutch passport. His mother's additional claims that he is only Belgian are contradicted by multiple reliable sources, therefore his mother is not a credible source to start with, and she could simply be ignorant of the truth. His possession of a Dutch passport is SUPPORTED by Article 9.5.2, as that article is very clearly related to passport nationality yet the FIA have granted him a Dutch racing licence. Unless you have some evidence that the FIA have amended or ignored their own rules that's pretty convincing. Pyrope 17:19, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Stop telling I'm wrong when I clearly am not. Article 9.5.2 is clear that passport is leading and no sources has proven that he has a Dutch passport. You are wrong in assuming that he has a Dutch passport. --Wester (talk) 17:21, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Well I can't stop telling you that you are wrong when you are, erm... wrong. Sorry if that dents your ego, but as I said many times, you have one source, that is contradicted by many sources, and that runs counter to the FIA's own rules. Provide some evidence that the FIA have relaxed Article 9.5.2 and then we'll see, but I'm afraid his mother's comment is not that evidence. Pyrope 17:24, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

If he had a Dutch passport he would not have to apply one at his 18th birthday. Also his mother and father are more valuable as a source than an article in Washington Post in which the editor might took Wikipedia as a source. --Wester (talk) 17:25, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Which source was that? Pyrope 17:26, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

The article in De Morgen is clear: "Hij heeft geen Nederlandse reisdocumenten". A Dutch passport is a travel document. So if he had a Dutch passport that would contradict this statement from a first hand source. --Wester (talk) 17:29, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I love that you changed your mind about which source to cite there, very telling. The Helden source that you originally quoted talks about him choosing Dutch citizenship on his 18th birthday, not about passports. The De Morgen article simply repeats his mother's dubious claim about his Belgian-only passport status and then goes on to talk about him choosing to have ONLY Dutch nationality on his 18th birthday as he is, already, both Dutch and Belgian. Come on Westers, this is too easy. Pyrope 17:38, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

He currently is a Belgian citizen and national. But he can claim Dutch nationality based on a Dutch law and the nationality of his father. At the age of 18 he can also BECOME Dutch citizen based on the fact that he has a Dutch father and theoretically is a Dutch national based on that. So the 'Dutch only'-remark of yours is wrong. At the age 18 he can apply for Dutch citizenship.--Wester (talk) 21:42, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't really understand why we are discussing here at the moment. The article has never claimed he has a Dutch passport. So what's the problem? Tvx1 18:02, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I know, and I couldn't agree more. But then that's what happens when someone with an axe to grind finds out that their original argument has no merit, so they must find a new argument to get the same result, only to be shown that the new argument is equally dubious. It is one of the drawbacks of Wikipedia's structure that editorial time must be wasted in pissing on these bushfires, but I'd rather have that than a dry and dusty annal populated only by acredited scholars. Besides, this kind of interaction keeps everyone on their toes and can be quite good fun! Pyrope 18:06, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

You are not able to read the Dutch-language sources. So I do not take your comments seriously. In the earlier article it was stated that Max Verstappen was no Dutchman at all. In the article of De Morgen that was nuanced that he only does not have Dutch documents but is also a Dutch national based on the nationality of his father. Nobody could have known that yesterday other than doing own research or making major assumptions. So don't act as if I was wrong. It's actually a disgrace to value assumptions higher than first hand sources.

I agree by Tvx1 that it's not that important any-more for the article now that we know (since today) that he also posses Dutch nationality. Although it's still wrong to claim dual citizenship. The conclusion is: Max Verstappen has a Dutch father and a Belgian mother, is born in Belgium, living there all his live, is Belgian citizen with dual Belgian-Dutch nationality (based on a Dutch law but without practical documents), races under a Dutch racing licence. --Wester (talk) 21:37, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

@Wester: if Verstappen is to follow Article 9.5.2, and thus, shall retain the nationality of their passport in all official documents, publications and prize‐giving ceremonies, then surely, Verstappen must have a Dutch passport. He can have a Belgian one as well. And you know what, he probably does have both, in the same way Pyrope has both a UK and Canadian passport. Funny thing is that the article would barely change if you got your way, because (a) we'd just rearrange some sentences in the lead (which, to be honest, probably needs to be done anyway) and (b) we can't change the nationality in the infobox because we'd be telling a falsehood if we write anything but Dutch. So I'll refer you to WP:LETITGO, WP:GETOVERIT, WP:DROPTHESTICK and WP:WORLDSEND. —Gyaro–Maguus— 18:19, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

That's bullshit rhetoric and a major assumption based on reverse-logic. Tell me, if he had a Dutch passport. Why do you think he travels with a Belgian passport if he want to be treated a Dutchman? --Wester (talk) 21:37, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

But what's the point. We don't mention anything about a Dutch passport in the article. Tvx1 22:40, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Stupid irrelevant question. I'll just leave you with this tweet. The man considers himself to be a Dutch racer, not a Belgian one. Now stop being so goddamn patriotic. He is just an F1 driver. Your efforts are literally amounting to nothing. It doesn't matter. Please stop. As soon as possible. —Gyaro–Maguus— 22:49, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

A tweet depicting a Belgian flag behind his name. Hope you see the irony of your comment. Max even said 'Nice flag' BTW ;)--Wester (talk) 23:40, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

[5] —Gyaro–Maguus— 23:43, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, let me explain. I said READ THE TEXT OF THE TWEET. Meaning realise that (a) he is noting that Sky got his flag wrong and (b) THAT SKY GOT HIS FLAG WRONG. —Gyaro–Maguus— 23:46, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Apparently you can't see the irony. Too bad. Why do you think Sky uses a Belgian flag? That does not come completely out of the blue. BTW: I was trying concluding this discussion with a lighter note (you did not catch that). But you're last comment is unnecessary aggressive (and also wrong since Max did not literally say the flag was wrong). Again: too bad.--Wester (talk) 23:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

And apparently you can't read sarcasm. Also, there is no irony. —Gyaro–Maguus— 23:51, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

(a) Let's end this discussion then (and I didn't see that you were trying to conclude the discussion). (b) Max was implying the flag was wrong, by saying that that flag isn't on that car. (c) This conversation over what the tweet actually said is pointless. —Gyaro–Maguus— 23:56, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

And (d) many apologies for the over-aggression but you have simply been infuriating in this discussion. —Gyaro–Maguus— 23:58, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

• I wish y'all would grow up and stop fighting over stupid shit. "Nationality" really doesn't matter. He'd be a great young racer under any flag, Tvx1. Mind you, those stupid flags are against MOS:FLAG anyway, even if the overzealous sports editors managed to concoct a local consensus. Welcome back to Kindergarten, Max, where everything is easily identified by nice colorful flaggies, even if your Belgian Dutchness (or Dutch Belgianness) is much more meaningful to your life. Drmies (talk) 00:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: they are not against MOS:FLAG. We successfully argued for their inclusion (please stop bringing up the issue). You might want to read Pyrope's words on the matter... —Gyaro–Maguus— 00:46, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Firstly, it's not against MOS:FLAG. It allows for a flag to denounce the sporting nationality in a sportspersons infobox. Secondly a race drivers's infobox only include the nationalit(y)(ies) they race under. Not simply the legal nationalities they possess. Tvx1 00:49, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
    • Pff--what "we" argued means nothing, and at any rate the value and authority of "we" depends on the makeup of that group. Those comments, well, everyone is, apparently, entitled to an opinion. The childish flaggies are meaningless, they're ugly, they're doing a disservice to our readers. Please stop treating this site as an updated MySpace, and I'll stop complaining. Now, move on. I didn't revert the reinstatement of that idiotic little flaggie, so you're welcome, and I accept your "thank you" for having improved the writing in the lead, something you, as a native speaker of English, should have done: that's more important than sticking the infobox full of Play-Doh. Tvx, je steenkolenengels is zo degelijk als je kennis van de richtlijnen. Drmies (talk) 00:55, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
      • That Dunglisch language in the article was not at all my work. It was the result of the frequent editing of the lead during the last weeks. Tvx1 01:30, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
        • @Drmies: you think the flags are childless and meaningless. If you read the arguments Pyrope posted, you'd see that they are not at all doing a disservice (which, might I add, is an opinion not backed by facts), and I would quote Pyrope to emphasise my point but there is too much good stuff there. I genuinely cannot fathom why you have such a hatred of flags, nor why you felt the need to bring up the flag issue because (a) the discussion was actually about nationality and not flags (b) your change (which was good but I might actually insert a variation of my own above) had nothing to do with flags and (c) when I check my watchlist, I check talk page posts before I check mainspace changes, so naturally I would see this and reply here first, especially considering your post did not at all refer to your change. —Gyaro–Maguus— 13:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
        • I can do nothing but support my colleague's statements here. In fact your sudden rant here and you're obliviousness to the current consensus regarding flags makes no sense whatsoever. Particularly because it was you who initiated that discussion which resulted in a near-unanimous consensus in favour of flags in the first place. It was later reconfirmed through an unsuccessful attempt to have it chucked out. At any rate the "we" in the near-unanimous consensus in favour of flags was much much much larger than the "we" in the discussion that lead to the the creation of MOS:FLAGS in the first place. Tvx1 15:27, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
          • Folks, I think everyone knows what I think about this but let's not turn one heated argument into another. If Wester has finally understood what the rest of us have known all along, that's fantastic. But let's leave the flag angle for another day, huh? I don't think there's ever been a fun discussion about flags. Bretonbanquet (talk) 15:35, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
            • I couldn't agree more. So, to wrap this up, does everyone agree with the current wording of the lead and any other sentence referring to his nationality or are their things that still need to be tweaked (e.g. poor English)? Tvx1 15:40, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
              • I think Jos should be mentioned in the intro. Literally, just a new sentence saying "Verstappen is the son of former F1 driver Jos Verstappen". I know people will be wondering about that and it is best to give that kind of information up front; otherwise, nothing else needs to be added in my eyes. —Gyaro–Maguus— 16:06, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
                • I've no objection to GM's suggestion, plus I would possibly reword the "youngest driver" sentence to clarify that he's the youngest in the history of the sport, not just the youngest current driver, which might be implied by the current wording. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:10, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Reworded lead

So would we be happy with something like this being the lead to the article (I've noted the changes like this):

Max Emilian Verstappen (born 30 September 1997) is a Belgian-Dutch racing driver who competes under the Dutch flag in Formula One with Scuderia Toro Rosso. Verstappen is the youngest World Championship Grand Prix driver in the history of the sport, having made his début, aged 17 years, 166 days, at the 2015 Australian Grand Prix and is the son of former F1 driver Jos Verstappen.

Thoughts? —Gyaro–Maguus— 16:22, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

References

Looks perfect to me. Tvx1 17:01, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, I've put it in now. —Gyaro–Maguus— 19:00, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Yep, absolutely fine. Bretonbanquet (talk) 10:35, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm also happy with that. --Wester (talk) 18:18, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

I wish I'd suggested this. Oh, wait, I did]. Guy (Help!) 17:08, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Did you not suggest that yesterday? You're rather late to this party; it was resolved weeks ago. Two flags cannot be used, incidentally. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:14, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Too late to suggest this? "and is the son of the Dutch former F1 driver Jos Verstappen." :P

What kind of bullshit is this. That Guy guy (even an administration) joins in at a month old discussion and hands out warnings to participants that do not agree with him and now even gives 'I told so'-comments that he made yesterday while the last message at this page was at April 4. Quite doubtful behaviour for an administrator at the English Wikipedia. --Wester (talk) 23:09, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

I think it's safe to say that Guy did not look at the timestamps, in fact, judging by their closing statements, I don't think they even read the discussion or they would have known we had already come to an agreement everybody likes. Tvx1 17:07, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Family

There isn't a single cite for the paragraph detailing family history. Can anyone add anything to substantiate the claims of this paragraph? If not, it should be trimmed down. 79616gr (talk) 04:07, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

There is a source in Anthony Kumpen's article.Tvx1 20:53, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Anthony Kumpen told me that he's Sophie Kumpen's cousin. Therefore Max is his second cousin. Unfortunately, there's no official source to be found online that states this fact. Anyway, the statement that Anthony Kumpen is Max Verstappen's uncle is simply wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.159.200.41 (talk) 18:18, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Actually, if that were true, that would make Max his first cousin-once-removed. Nevertheless, the statement is supported with a source. And here is a link to a video of Anthony appearing in a Belgian talk show where, at around 4:56, he confirms himself that he is Max's uncle. Tvx1 19:57, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Weird. I watched the clip and indeed, he confirms that he's the uncle of Max Verstappen. However, I'm sure that he said to me that he's Sophie Kumpen's cousin. If he were Max's uncle he'd have to be Sophie's brother, which he denied. Strange. Maybe this should be checked once more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77editor77 (talk • contribs) 17:31, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Nationality

I have removed the nationality parameter from the infobox because, technically he is not a Dutch as he is traveling under a Belgium passport and ID. Legally speaking, he is not a Dutch citizen. Simply put, he races as a Dutch, yet a Belgium national. Furthermore even though his nationality is Belgium we can't mention that in the specific parameter as it gets listed under Formula one Career. So that's inaccurate as well, as he is not racing for his own country. So, in this case, I think it's best to refrain from including his nationality in the infobox. -- Chamith (talk) 04:13, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

As has been established in the four above discussions and as is carefully explained in the article, he is a dual national. Not traveling on a Dutch passport or a Dutch ID does not exclude one from being Dutch at all. That's simply wrong. Tvx1 09:43, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

@Tvx1: I was just merely pointing that out per what I read on several news articles. They could be wrong. Anyhow, previous discussions about this situation managed to establish a consensus for the lead. But the dispute about his nationality was still ongoing. Nevertheless, if he is a dual national like you said then it's ludicrous to mention his nationality singularly as Belgium or Dutch. Because he is both. In that case, removal of nationality parameter is still justified I believe. Like Drmies said in one of the previous discussions, we shouldn't fight over nationality if it's ambiguous. -- Chamith (talk) 10:47, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

That's because the F1 infobox only shows racing nationality, not legal nationality. His racing nationality is Dutch. There is no confusion/fight about that at all. Tvx1 11:10, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I think you have confused the term nationality with allegiance. -- Chamith (talk) 11:57, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I haven't confused anything. It is the WIkiProject's consensus to only mention racing nationality in a F1 driver's infobox. Tvx1 12:10, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Could you please provide me the link to that specific discussion? Template:Infobox F1 driver says nothing about it. -- Chamith (talk) 12:17, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I assume you were talking about this. The thing is, it doesn't cite a consensus regarding Max Verstappen. Right now we are working toward a consensus, but we might need help from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Formula One. I decided to open this discussion as an IP editor was edit warring over it. And I'm pretty sure he will continue to change the nationality on his own basis if we don't establish a consensus specifically for Max Verstappen. -- Chamith (talk) 12:30, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

There has never been a specific discussion regarding this infobox parameter before it was created. It has just been general practice and has always been iterated in the rare cases such an issue has been brought up. This all has been like this from well before I joined wikipedia, so I haven't actually participated in any discussions on the matter. Tvx1 14:08, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Let's wait for more user input. If there are none, it's better to request for comments -- Chamith (talk)

The nationality in the infobox is the same as is mentioned on the FIA license of the driver. Verstappen has dual nationality (Dutch and Belgian) and has a Dutch FIA license so the nationality in the infobox should be Dutch. In official documents such as race results he is also noted as racing under a Dutch license. A similar situation is Dutch driver Ho-Pin Tung, born and raised in the Netherlands to Chinese parents and has a Dutch passport, but races on a Chinese license and therefor has the Chinese nationality in the infobox DragonFury (talk) 15:29, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

The nationality should be restored to Dutch as this is the FIA license he holds.79616gr (talk) 15:33, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Hasn't this debate been argued to a conclusion, more than once before? Why do you need to have it again?

National flags are displayed prominently at podium ceremonies and are usually painted on their car as well.

As you can see from this image the Dutch flag is displayed on his race suit and again here on his race car.

The infobox is specifically about his formula one career and yet despite all this evidence referring specifically to sporting nationality as recognised by the FIA, you want to make a debate about it? I am puzzled by your motivation. --Falcadore (talk) 15:51, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

@Falcadore: You are absolutely right. This has been discussed before. And the conclusion was to include both nationalities. And like I said above, an IP user was edit warring over his nationality. It wasn't fair to revert him back as the previous consensus supported including both nationalities. If I kept constantly reverting back it wouldn't have been constructive because this is rather a content dispute. So, instead, I decided to start a new discussion to arrive at a clearer consensus.

That said, now I too believe that it's reasonable to mention his nationality as dutch per this article and above rationales. -- Chamith (talk) 16:04, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

His dad Jos about his son Max his nationality (published 10 April 2015 14:28)

As there is still confusion about Max his nationality, I have put up a link (Dutch) in the main article about his dad Jos Verstappen where Jos states his son Max and his nationality in april 2015, and the text in dutch and translated to english in the following:

Dutch (original) part:

Jos Verstappen heeft in zijn column voor De Telegraaf een heikele kwestie aangesneden. Vanuit sommige hoeken beweert men namelijk opeens dat Max Verstappen een Belg is. Zelfs zijn moeder Sophie Kumpen mengde zich in de discussie door te beweren dat Max meer Belgisch dan Nederlands is. Jos Verstappen laat er geen twijfel over bestaan, Max is en blijft een Nederlander.

Jos Verstappen: "Iedereen wil momenteel een stukje van Max. Aan de ene kant is dat een mooi compliment voor hem. Hij doet het ontzettend goed. In de auto, maar ook daarbuiten. Hij komt goed over, heeft een fris hoofd en blijft zichzelf. Dus ik snap best dat veel mensen trots zijn. Dat ben ik ook uiteraard. Maar op sommige punten heb ik er wel moeite mee."

"Zo is Max in de ogen van sommige Belgische media ineens een Belg. Ik vind dat een beetje slap. We zijn al jaren aan het racen, maar tot een paar maanden geleden werd er in België niet of nauwelijks over hem geschreven en nu claimen ze ineens dat hij van hun is. Ik zie dat zelf absoluut niet zo."

"De situatie is dat Max beide nationaliteiten heeft, omdat ik en Sophie getrouwd waren op het moment dat hij geboren werd. Maar aangezien hij racet onder een Nederlandse licentie is hij iets meer Nederlands dan Belgisch. Zo voelt hij dat zelf ook. Als Nederland tegen België moet voetballen, is hij voor Oranje. En als hij achttien is en moet kiezen, zal dat voor de Nederlandse nationaliteit zijn."

"Je merkt wel aan alles dat Max ontzettend leeft in Nederland. Overal proef je enthousiasme, ook in gesprekken met potentiële sponsors. Momenteel heeft Max in Jumbo één persoonlijke sponsor, maar er is nog één plek op zijn helm en de zijkant van zijn cap te vergeven. Die hopen we de komende periode in te vullen."

English (translated) part:

Jos Verstappen has pointed out a sensitive issue in his column for Dutch newspaper "De Telegraaf". From some angles people are claiming that Max Verstappen is suddenly Belgian. Even his mother Sophie Kumpen interfered by claiming in the debate that Max is more Belgian than Dutch. Jos Verstappen leaves no doubt about it, Max is still a Dutchman.

Jos Verstappen: "At the moment everyone wants a piece of Max, which is a nice compliment for him, as he is doing very well in the car, but also outside, he comes across well, he remains cool and stays himselve. So I do understand that many people are proud. That's me too, of course. But at some point I do have trouble with it."

"So Max is in the eyes of some Belgian media suddenly a Belgian. I find that a little slack. We've been racing many years now, but until a few months ago hardly nothing was written about him in the Belgium media and now they suddenly claim he's theirs. I absolutely don't see it that way."

"The situation is that Max has both nationalities, because I and Sophie were married at the time he was born. But as he races under a Dutch license he is slightly more Dutch than Belgian. He also feels that himself. If the Netherlands plays against Belgium in Soccer, he is for the Orange soccer team. and when he becomes eighteen and must choose, it will be for the Dutch nationality."

"You notice at everything that Max very much lives in the Netherlands. Everywhere you taste enthusiasm, also in talks with potential sponsors. Currently, Max has in Jumbo his personal sponsor, but there is still place on his helmet and the side of his cap for sponsors. That we hope to fill in the next period." Ricodol74 _? 17:31, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes that's roughly a correct translation. Tvx1 22:30, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Summary says Verstappen is Formula 3 champion

That is incorrect as noted in the chapter on F3, he finished 3rd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.196.246.118 (talk) 15:58, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Could you point out where it says Verstappen is a Formula Three champion..? QueenCake (talk) 16:40, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Visual editor glitch with this article

If I try to do an edit using the visual editor, as opposed to editing the source code, the entire "Career history" section appears to vanish. In reality, it gets shoved into the References section, giving the appearance that the article "skips" directly from "Family and private life" to "Racing record".

I've never seen this happen on any other article. If this isn't the proper venue to ask, please let me know, although the problem does seem unique to this article. I have verified the behavior in both Firefox and Safari.

Does anyone know what is causing this strange behavior? Thanks! 1980fast (talk) 21:23, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

You're right. It happens to me as well. I don't know what causes it though. That question is more something for the technical people. Tvx1 21:29, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

 Fixed. It was due to a formatting error with ref #3. Tvx1 21:34, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Description of F1 achievements

Tvx1 reverted my changes on Max Verstappen's achievements in 2015 F1 championship noting that "We do not write our own point of view in the articles". However, it is the previous content that was expressing a (quite negative) point of view, as it presented only half of the story. Original content: Since then, he has failed to finish with points in China, due to engine failure in the last lap, Bahrain, due to electrical issues, Spain, settling for 11th, and Monaco, as a result of a collision with Romain Grosjean. He achieved his best finish in Hungary by finishing 4th following the numerous crashes throughout the race. This (although accurate but outdated) is not a good description of his performance in 2015. First, he achieved 4th place in Hungary and the USA race. Moreover, the "following the numerous crashes throughout the race" phrase implies that had these crashes not happen, Max would not achieve the 4th position. In contrast, my text was stating that "Overall, his debut season has been remarkable with two finishes at the fourth place. Two rounds before the end of the season he has scored 47 points and is at the 10th position of the drivers' championship." I do not consider that the word "remarkable" is a person's own point of view given Max's performance. Other than that, my contribution was only stating facts: two 4th places, 47 points and 10th position 2 rounds before the end of the season. How is this "point of view"? Rentzepopoulos (talk) 13:03, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

My 2p worth: we shouldn't be using words like "remarkable" anywhere. What might be remarkable to one person might not be to someone else, and it's impossible to quantify. He's had a reasonable season in what is a pretty good car. Some drivers would have done worse; several would have done significantly better. Best to stick to the facts and talk about his actual results. I can still hear people in 1994 saying his dad would be World Champion one day... Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes the "remarkable" is exactly what made it a point of view. You didn't attribute anything you wrote to a reliable source, making it your opinion. We simply cannot enter our own opinion in an encyclopedia. For instance, we don't write "Michael is the greatest F1 driver of all time". We write "Michael Schumacher is widely regarded as the greatest F1 driver of all time", backing that sentence with citations to reliable sources. By the way, it really isn't a big leap to see that the many incidents during the Hungarian GP were a big help for Max and that it would have been much more difficult for him to finish in that position if they hadn't happened. Tvx1 20:32, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

No problem. My primary point -- the reason I made the edit in the first place -- was that the text was only stating his failures (which dominated the first half of the season) and not his subsequent results in the points afterwards. The addition of the reference to the USA GP results makes it more balanced. Rentzepopoulos (talk) 08:56, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

1492 season

What is this about? Can anybody please delete it? I tried, but I couldn't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A445:7ED7:0:843F:FD47:ABE5:5D18 (talk) 13:41, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

 Already done and the contributor has been warned. Tvx1 14:10, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Complete FIA European Formula 3 Championship results

I'm not sure which is correct, but the coloring on this section does not match the key. Could someone who knows which should be corrected (colors or race info) assist here. Thanks! Apriestofgix (talk) 15:41, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

As far as I can see, it does match. The black figures are the race results, not the blue ones. Tvx1 16:10, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

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