Talk:Matthias Goethe

Omitted details

I'm recording some details here that are not suitable for the article. It is interesting to see the speed with which Goethe moved despite the time required for travel. This relates to Goethe's move from Melbourne.

• The date Goethe left Melbourne is unclear but 9 April 1867 was his last meeting in Melbourne.
• Goethe's wife and children, except for his eldest son Heinrich, left Melbourne on 13 July 1867 to visit her family in London.
• Goethe sailed on the Welkin which departed from Sydney on 15 June 1867 (Trove).
• The Welkin arrived at San Francisco on 30 August 1867 (Trove) after 75 days at sea.
• Goethe left San Francisco on 23 September 1867 and arrived at Sacramento the next day.
• Goethe's first service in Sacramento was on 29 September 1867.
• Sacramento's new Lutheran church was dedicated in December 1873 in a service conducted by Goethe, with Heinrich playing the organ.

In October 1868, Harriet Goethe and the three youngest surviving children joined Matthias in Sacramento. Apparently they continued living there, with Heinrich, after Matthias travelled to Mexico City, and after his death. Johnuniq (talk) 05:06, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Protestant Church

Re the "clarification needed" tag on "After training to become a Catholic priest, Goethe joined the Protestant Church and went to England." the sources say:

• Page 81 of book by Hebart (1938) "Goethe was brought up as a Roman Catholic and was being trained to become a priest, when he changed his faith and joined the Protestant Church."
• ADB "He was trained for the Catholic priesthood but at 20 became a Protestant, went to England,..."
• Book by Herbert Mees, p. 44–45: "Little is known of Matthias' formal education. ... He must have attended the government-funded Prussian Catholic primary school in Neuendorf. ... Which school Matthias attended after primary school is still unknown. ... He may have attended a Catholic secondary school/seminary which in the Rhineland accepted bright boys from poor parents from the age of twelve. This would explain his working knowledge of Latin, Greek and Hebrew, aside of German. The family's view [that is, the view of current descendants] that he was intended for the (Catholic) priesthood supports this argument. ... [Goethe went to Brussels where he met Rev. Jean François Edouard Panchaud] [Panchaud's] organisation pioneered the Presbyterian model of Belgian Protestantism, standing in sharp contrast to the rather more rational model of the Eglise Protestante de Bruselles in vogue at the Court of the Belgian King... Soon after meeting Panchaud, Goethe must have converted to Protestantism."

It looks like "joined the Protestant Church" cannot be clarified and indeed the particular variety of Protestantism was probably not a significant issue to Goethe although he was apparently influenced by Panchaud's teachings. Johnuniq (talk) 11:31, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: thanks for the reply. "the Protestant Church" needs clarification, especially as we next say that Goethe moved to England where the dominant Protestant church was Anglican, whereas Goethe was associated with Presbyterianism and Lutherism. I suggest we follow the Australian Dictionary of Biography and say he 'became a Protestant'. Verbcatcher (talk) 12:47, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

I made that change. Johnuniq (talk) 07:41, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Picture and Goethe or Göthe

It would be good to have a photo of Goethe. There is a likely candidate in this German Australia blog. Unfortuantely, no source is specified − can we be confident that this is a photo of Matthias Goethe? Also, the blog gives his name as Göthe. We should continue to prefer the Goethe spelling in the ADB, but we might give Göthe as an alternative spelling, particularly if any more reliable sources have this spelling. Verbcatcher (talk) 13:15, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Johnuniq, I have just came across your question at c:Commons:Village pump/Copyright#Copying image from pdf of a 1938 book, where you identify a clearer copy this photograph. I agree with the answer there, the image is public domain and can be uploaded to Commons. I will leave it for you to upload. Regards, Verbcatcher (talk) 17:55, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

I uploaded the image and fixed a blunder I made. Please do any fixes you want: uploading a better copy to the same file would be fine by me. The Mees reference has the same photo on page 73 although it is cropped differently and reversed in the book. The book's caption says "Pastor Matthias Goethe as President of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Victoria, c. 1860. This is a reversed copy of the framed original ... [believed that the original was incorrectly copied]. I don't think we need to reverse the upload. I'll post later about the Goethe name confusion. Johnuniq (talk) 05:40, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Goethe's name

Goethe's name has been written in several ways. The Mees reference describes the issue on pages 42 and 44. Goethe's parents could not sign their names. Goethe's father's father spelled his name as Güth while Goethe's father used Göth and Göthe (the ref does not explain how that is compatible with the statement that he could not sign his name). Goethe signed his name in different ways at different times. A record of Goethe's birth (page 43 of ref) shows Goethe (and that the birth was illegitimate, with an update when the parents married on 1 February 1838). The ref states that Goethe used Göthe or Goethe at the time of his marriage in 1849, but later in Melbourne, often signed certificates he issued as Goëthe. The record of Goethe's marriage (page 46 of ref) shows Goethe. Ignoring the history of the grandfather's Güth and the father's Göth, the ref says that Goethe used Goethe and Göthe and Goëthe. As usual, the guideline gives little guidance for what I should write but I will have a stab. Please fix according to taste. Johnuniq (talk) 07:43, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

What you put looks good. I have created redirects at Matthias Göthe and Matthias Goëthe. Should we say that he was illegitimate? Verbcatcher (talk) 02:52, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Good. I don't see a reason to mention the birth legitimacy. It was updated on the birth record with a note that the parents married, and there is no indication that legitimacy was ever an issue. Johnuniq (talk) 03:26, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

@Verbcatcher: While checking the references after discovering I made a couple of page-number errors, I came to:

Matthias Goethe was born on 29 March 1827 at Neuendorf (now part of Koblenz, Germany), Rhine Province, Prussia, the son of Heinrich Goethe, a public servant.[ref ADB]

That ref does not mention Rhine Province or Prussia. Checking shows I started with Mees p. 42 as the reference, and it verifies everything in the original sentence. Problem: there is new text saying "the son of Heinrich Goethe, a public servant" which is different from what Mees says. I think the situation defies a simple summary for this article and I plan to replace ADB with Mees and omit the father's occupation. Here is what page 42 of Mees says:

...he was the eldest child, of three, of Johann Heinrich Göth and Anna Katharina Günther. ... Matthias' father came from the lowest social strata, without land and formal skills. In Neuendorf, he was a foreigner, in 1827 a day labourer and at the births of his daughters Maria Anna and Katharine in 1829 and 1835 respectively, a raftsman... and a day labourer. When he finally married he was a low level council employee but still could not sign his name.

Mees goes on to say that the cemetry has many Göth and Güth names, but Göthe or Goethe are not known as those of local families. I'm writing all this to let you know my reasoning, but the detail is a record for my benefit in case I need to think about this in the future. Johnuniq (talk) 07:52, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: I added new facts (Goethe's father's name and occupation) and added the source immediately after this. However, I now see that I separated your citation from the text that it supported. Wikipedia's citation styles are poor in that the text that a citation applies is sometimes unclear. On reflection, a rational approach is that a citation (or a group of citations) applies to the text back to the preceding citation, or to the start of the paragraph. Following this rule I should have added my new citation next to your citation (see WP:CITEBUNDLE), thus:

• Matthias Goethe was born on 29 March 1827 at Neuendorf (now part of Koblenz, Germany), Rhine Province, Prussia, the son of Heinrich Goethe, a public servant. He was baptised as a Roman Catholic.[Ref Tarnay][Ref Mees]

Alternatively, WP:CITEBUNDLE suggests putting all citations at the end a paragraph. This makes sense, but I have seldom seen it done.

I added his father's occupation as it gives an indication of the socio-economic class from which Geothe came, which is significant in a biographical article. 'A public servant' does not give much insight, but it indicates that his father was not an aristocrat or a priest. Your extract from Mees gives useful information on his background and I think we should include some of this. I suggest:

Matthias Goethe was born on 29 March 1827 at Neuendorf (now part of Koblenz, Germany), Rhine Province, Prussia, the eldest child of Johann Heinrich Göth and Anna Katharina Günther, who also had two daughters. Matthias' father was a labourer and a raftsman.[Ref Mees] Goethe was baptised as a Roman Catholic.[Ref Mees] After training to become a Catholic priest, he became a Protestant and went to England.[Ref Hebart] Goethe married Harriet Alice Wells on 9 June 1849 in England after meeting her in Brussels.[Ref Mees].

I can't add this because I can't check it against the source, but I encourage you to add something like this. 'Raftsman' probably means timber rafting on the Rhine, but we presumably don't have a source to confirm this. Do you know why Mees says 'he was a foreigner'? Where did Johann Heinrich Göth originate? Verbcatcher (talk) 21:15, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

The proposal is to add "who also had two daughters. Matthias' father was a labourer and a raftsman." with other consequent rewording. I suppose mentioning the daughters is ok although it does not add much to knowledge about Matthias. There is a minor problem about "a labourer and a raftsman" namely that it suggests he was never anything else. How about "Matthias's father was a labourer in 1827."?

From Mees p. 42:

• "He [Matthias' father, Johann Heinrich Göth] was born in 1804, a Catholic, at Oberbachheim, Dukedom of Nassau."
• "Andreas [Matthias' father's father, Andreas Güth] was from Attenhausen, some 12 km to the north-east, that is, he was not a farmer from Oberbachheim, which was then, and still is today, a small poor agricultural village high above the Rhine Valley."

I gather that the distances are not large and today we would not regard someone from that far away as a foreigner. However at that time it would have been a big deal. Johnuniq (talk) 02:48, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

@Verbcatcher: I tried your edit, with modifications. Per the notice at the top, I have nominated the article at DYK and that requires a reference on each sentence containing a fact in the hook. Therefore I tried to stuff everything into one sentence to avoid unduly repeating the reference. I couldn't make it work when also mentioning the two sisters. You might have an idea on that. Johnuniq (talk) 10:17, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

That's fine. My main point was to indicate that he came from a humble background.Verbcatcher (talk) 17:03, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Good, thanks for the photo enhancement and your help. Johnuniq (talk) 02:11, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Mexico City

Matthias Goethe#Mexico City has a reference for "was its first pastor." Yesterday I noticed that I used the wrong reference for that due to confusion in my notes. I haven't had time to investigate and fix the issue so am just noting that I will fix it in the next day or two. Johnuniq (talk) 08:06, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Done. Johnuniq (talk) 04:59, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Three continents

The claim founded Lutheran congregations in three continents does not stand up because Sacramento and Mexico City are both in North America, see the Mexico article. I think the DYK tagline will have to be changed − ...in three countries would be accurate, but less punchy. Verbcatcher (talk) 02:35, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Damn, you're right of course. My geograpy is weak but that's really dumb—I was taken in by the source which does say "three continents". I need a bit of break from Goethe but will try to think about it soon. I originally was going to say something like "founded Lutheran congregations in Melbourne, Sacramento and Mexico City". However, the story is more complex for Sacramento. According to Mees, Goethe arrived in San Francisco where there was an active Lutheran community. He found a pastor who had "frequently preached in Sacramento", and another pastor who had been sent to Sacramento. The latter had success setting up a school but "not finding support among adults, he had abandoned his work". Goethe went to Sacramento and was successful in setting up a formal congregation. It's a bit of a stretch (original research) to say Goethe founded the Sacramento congregation based on that, although it is clearly correct in a fundamental if not literal sense. I pounced on the "founded Lutheran congregations in three continents" source when I saw it. Perhaps "formed Lutheran congregations in Melbourne, Sacramento and Mexico City"? I'll think about that and welcome any ideas. Johnuniq (talk) 03:51, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

@SarahSV: Do you have time to look at a problem here? The top of this talk currently shows the DYK nomination with a hook that includes "founded Lutheran congregations in three continents". That is based on the source "His subsequent founding of three Lutheran congregations on three continents suggests..." (Mees p. 45). As pointed out by Verbcatcher, "continents" is incorrect and cannot be used for the hook. Would it be acceptable to change continents to countries while keeping the source above? Is that original research or is it a sky-is-blue correction? Here are some sources that might be used for rewordings of the hook (ADB = Australian Dictionary of Biography, cited as Tarnay in the article):

• "Goethe was inducted as the first Lutheran pastor in Victoria by a group of Presbyterian and Congregational Church ministers." (Mees p. 37)
• "Goethe thus became the first Lutheran minister and founder of the Lutheran congregation in Victoria." (ADB)
• "[Goethe] founded the first Lutheran congregation in Sacramento" (ADB)
• "[Goethe] helped establish a lasting Protestant German congregation in Mexico City and received its first call" (Mees p. 91)

Ideas needed! Perhaps I'm overthinking it because I'm looking for one source which covers everything. I guess the hook of "three countries" or "Melbourne, Sacramento and Mexico City" could be justified by adding needed references from above in the appropriate section? The hook might say established rather than founded? Johnuniq (talk) 07:24, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

We don't need a source to say that 1+1+1=3, per WP:CALC. As far as I can see, Wikipedia:Did you know does not place any specific rules on sourcing, simply that the article should meet the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. We have reliable sources for the congregations in Melbourne, Sacramento and Mexico, and I don't see why they all need to be in the same source. It is also reasonable to correct Mees' statement, although this error casts question on his reliability.

I am concerned that 'helped establish' is not the same as 'founded', and is not quite the same as 'established'.

'Three countries' is a weak hook, establishing congregations in three neighbouring countries in Europe would not be so noteworthy. I think it is better to list the countries, as not everyone knows where Sacramento is, and there are other Melbournes and Sacramentoes. So I suggest:

• ... that Matthias Goethe, born in Prussia in 1827 and trained to become a Catholic priest, became a Lutheran pastor and established Lutheran congregations in Australia, the USA and Mexico?

Would it be worth modifying the picture to have a transparent border? I have not worked out how to do this. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:07, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Your hook is a good fix, thanks. I'll update the DYK soon when I get a chance to sort out the necessary changes to the sourcing. Re the picture, do you mean to change the faint white rectangle around the oval image with a transparent background? I suppose that would be nice but it's too long since I played with such tools. Johnuniq (talk) 23:39, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

@Johnuniq and Verbcatcher: I'm a bit late here, but just to add that "established Lutheran congregations in Australia, the US and Mexico" looks good to me. SarahSV ^(talk) 00:10, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks all, I edited the hook but used "United States" instead of "US" because a distant memory led me to MOS:US. Johnuniq (talk) 06:57, 15 May 2019 (UTC)