Talk:Master race/Archive 1

Archive 1

Does the Master Race already exist?

This article holds that the Mater Race is something that already exists, whereas normally I have heard it used in the context of something that will be achieved through eugenics. User:H7asan

I've removed this sentence, since it seems very obscure, and ios also rather distracting and confusing ['[it] was first used by the British colonial power to denote the original inhabitants of the areas (colonies) that they had conquered and ruled.]. Why would the people being ruled over be the 'master race'? Clearly this usage is wholly different from the standard one, and appears to be no more than a coincidence of phrasing. It should not be main definition of the term. Paul B

Paul, yes, it is somewhat unusual but correct, I think. I copied it from the German version, which I did not write. I am quite sure that Hitler openly admitted that the British colonial policy inspired him to do the same for his colonization of eastern europe. Andries 19:28, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The Concept of Master Race is not something that purely applies to the German usage of the concept. It is a common recurring theme throughout many mythologies and stories of a people of unblemished spiritual descent, similar to the concept of demigods. The word "Aryan" in the Central Asian cultures implies people who are "great ones", or "heavenly/divine ones" in translation, and the concept of Aryan and Master Race were used in some ways by Nietzsche in his supraman ideology before the Fascists adopted the idea into their own twisted version of it.

People of "unblemished spiritual descent" do no belong in this article, which is about theories of racial difference. Nietzsche was not concerned with race. Paul B 10:01, 31 July, 2005 (UTC)

May I just say that Nietzsche's own ideas were almost (but not quite) fascist, so although they modified his ideas they did not 'twist' them. I know it i sfashionable to talk as if Nietzsche was a decent man and a good man...etc...however it doesn't cut any ice when you look at his works. You can see by reading them, who the Nazi's modified them (easily) to fit with thheir own agenda.

Nietzsche was over racist. The german version of this page denied no more the verifiable fact: hundreds and hundreds of Nietzsche's phrases reveal an explicit biological and social cruel racist. These phrases are hidden or manipulate by certain ideologists. Sorry, but see yourself some citations in: www.alonsofia.com--193.153.225.34 (talk) 16:49, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

P.S. And why would Hitler take British Colonial Policy (which has many differences to Nazi Colonial Policy), becase the British used the term 'Master Race' in reference to the indigenious inhabitants of a regions. It shows whoever wrote that in the (German) article's lack of knowledge if A) He thinks the two 'nations' had the same or similar colonial policies or that the idea of 'Master Race' stems for that (completely unreleated) term. - Lucius Anonimus

Blond/Blue Italians

"Italians, under the rule of Benito Mussolini, are not known for having blond hair and blue eyes, yet they fought alongside the Germans as Aryans."

First, there is a disconnect between perception and reality here; being "known for" a characteristic really has nothing to do with anything Italians themselves can do or control. (e.g. the world was once known for being flat, yet the explorers never fell off)

Also, though the experience is anecdotal, Italy seems to be chock-full of blond haired, blue-eyed citizens. Perhaps this isn't the case on The Sopranos and other television and movie portrayals, but in reality... <((Insert Anti-Human propaganda here))>

Those are not native Italians, they are from the Lombards, Vikings and other German related people who ivaded after the fall of Rome, which is why Rome and Europe went into the dark agaes, only to be reborn after the African Moors had to inadvertantly show them the way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.89.86 (talk) 04:37, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Colonial US

In the US a similar concept exsisted. Benjamin Franklin clearly proposed a division between Anglo-Saxons & Saxons and the rest of Europeans whom he considered to be "Swathy Whites." This ideology which was somewhat popular in the US during the late 18^th and early 19^th century created a defacto, Anglo-Saxon/Saxon master race. The concept is initially the same; thus I beleive the exsistance of a master race concept in the colonial United States ought to be mentioned here. Regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 21:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Well Franklin's views are not really very clearly thought-through, as expressed in his article, which you can see here.[1] He is rather vague about why these Anglo-Saxons are more "lovely", and which races should be included in loveliness (he refers to the white and also the "red" - presumably meaning natives) and he also says that maybe this is just his own preference. There's no clearly articulated theory behind it at this stage. Paul B 08:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I think Franklin's views are just Anglo-Saxonism. Whilst the master race concept clearly comes from the USA it was a post-colonial development and seems to be partly in reaction to Anglo-Saxonism.--Rusty Tonic (talk) 14:14, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

NPOV.

There isn't one single indication or comment about the fact that the theories about matser races (whether nazi or japanese or anything else) have been widely discredited. That's not very NPOV. ;) --Regebro 18:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I quote from the article: "Most modern geneticists no longer give credence to the hierarchical model of race on which the policies of eugenics and racial hygiene are built. The concepts involved in this theory of Germanic superiority is also strongly contested. Most modern scholars see no connection between Indo-European population movements and alleged "Nordic" racial characteristics." Paul B 20:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Uhm, that's under Aryanism. Are we to conclude that Nordicism IS given credence? :-) But fine, there is some text I can use, I'll move it. --Regebro 21:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It was in that category because it comes after the Nordic category, and the statement links the two. Paul B 22:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it was in the category after the Nordic category, ie, the Arian category. Anyway, I have fixed it now. :) --Regebro 22:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It was put there to link the two sections on both Nordic and Aryan concepts - at the end of the discussion of the factual aspects of the issue as a summing up. Paul B 00:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why it was put there, just how it ended up, and it ended up looking like it was ONLY referencing Aryanism, and it looked hidden away as a small aside. I moved it to the top of the page where it clearly is about both, and where it is NOT hidden away, thereby making the article less POV. I honestly have no idea why you are even discussing this. --Regebro 11:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

How can it "only" reference Aryanism when it in fact explicitly refers to the Nordic concept??? If people read the article - which is quite short - it isn't "hidden" at all. I don't mind the section being at the top, but I was explaining that there was also a sensible reason why it was where it was. Paul B 12:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I attempted to correct this but Paul Barlow keeps on reverting my corrections --- Skapur 23:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

And you you deleted the discussion, apparently to misrepresent my position - which is a serious no-no. Paul B 23:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not intentionally delete it. I did not see it. Was it an edit save conflict? --- Skapur 00:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

An edit conflict from several hours ago? I don't think so. Here's the evidence. [2] Paul B 00:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I am very sorry. I did not do it intentionally. --- Skapur 00:10, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

OK. Never mind, fixed now. Paul B 16:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Unique to Europe?

Is the master race concept really unique to Europe? What about Japan in the early 20th century? I have the impression that this was an ideoalogy of racial superioroty as well? Is that a misunderstanding? --Regebro 11:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

It's difficult to say. What's distinct about Europe is the way it claimed to be based on scientific taxonomies of race and had acres academic-sounding literature to back it up. I don't think there was anything comparable in Japan, but it would be interesting to know. Numerous cultures throughout history have believed that their people were superior to others for various reasons, which often mixed cultural, environmentalist and other arguments. These certainly often included the vaguely "racialist" concept of "superior breeding" and "purity". They also sometimes articulated features such as skin colour (as in the ancient Egyptian racial/ethnic taxonomy). But the specific concept of a "master race" as such - defined by anthropometrics - is very distinctive to European theories of racial taxonomy which didn't really exist before the 19th century. If someone knows more about Japanese thinking at this time it would be useful to discuss. We could also explore the history of the idea of ethnic superiority. Paul B 12:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The Japanese i've met have a valid claim to being a local Master-Race, i'm afraid to admit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.189.239 (talk) 16:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Removal

I removed the section on Tolkien as the central premise (along with most of the details) was inaccurate. The idea that Tolkien portrayed the Numenoreans as 'morally superior' runs into trouble when considering that they slipped into 'devil worship' and human sacrifice... he also specifically wrote that intermarrying with other men was NOT the cause of their decay... indeed, that was the claim advanced by the evil Castamir the Usurper against the rightful (mixed blood) king Eldacar of Gondor. Et cetera. The presentation of Tolkien's work in the article just was not accurate. --CBD 23:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Nordic race.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Other uses

• Muslims referring to non-Muslims as "infidels" and giving them effectively sub-human "rights" in Islamic countries?
• Jews, especially Zionists, referring to "Goi", and dehumanising Palestinians?
• Romans and Greeks referring to pretty much all others as "barbarians"?
• Khoisan using the same word they use for "wild animals" to describe Caucasoid and Negroid peoples?
• Indians using various racist terms for both south Indians, and Europeans?

etc

etc

you've misconceptualized the whole matter, i'm afraid. infidels become good Muslims once they convert, but a true Slav can't ever become a good Aryan. the barbarians were called such because of their language and their lack of good Greek culture, but the Greeks recognized some barbarians as civilized, such as the Egyptians.

and a master race is one that is fit to rule others on genetic grounds.

you've simply throw a lot of offensive things into the same basket. 01:38, 18 March 2013 (UTC) Michael Christian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.23.224.120 (talk)

But the "Master Race" theory is uniquely Germanic in character and design. That's nice to know. Only Nordics can be racist. It is physically impossible for ANY other human group to be racist. Alternatively, this article could be cleaned up......

None of this is about race specifically, but about cultural or religious identity (and 'goy', btw, just means 'people'). In none of these cases is there a concept that a particular race has physically innate qualities of leadership, which is essentially what the adea of a master race is about. Paul B (talk) 11:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• Referring to people racially unlike you is about race specifically(Khoisan). Likewise there are countless writings by Greeks and Romans mocking the "darker" and "lighter" races.

"Goyim" means "cattle". There are various references to "God's chosen People", and how non-Jews are beneath the "Chosen Ones". Whether that means race specifically today, what with some degree of interbreeding is a matter of discussion, but saying that "Master Race Theory" is uniquely Germanic is just plain wrong. In fact, the original "Nordic supremacists" were French. Likewise the movement took roots in Russia, where a remnant survives today. There are various "master race" ideaologies in the world today. For example the Bantu peoples of Central Africa regard themselves as naturally "superior" to their Bambutid neighbours. Or the lighter-skinned Israelis regard themselves as somehow "superior" both to dark-erskinned Palestinians and darker-skinned Orientalid ans Sephardic Jews. There is likewise "master race" bias in India today. Or how about Afrocentrism ? And the list goes on and on... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.158.152.206 (talk) 12:06, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Goyim does not mean and never has meant cattle. That's pure myth. Look up the word. No one disputes that people in group A have considered themselves to be superior to people group B in numerous cultures througout history, but that's not how the tem "master race" is used. Yes the ideas of Boulainvilliers lay behind those of Gobineau, and the concept evolved in Nordicism, but the specific concept of a master race as such only became clearly defined in Nazi ideology. Paul B (talk) 12:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

What do you consider to be 'clearly defined'? Surely that is entirely subjective. Is it also pure myth that the Talmud refers to certain laws that place Jews above non-Jews, or that many prominent Israelis have referred to non-Jews as "beasts that walk on two legs"? The problem here is that this article attempts to display that only the Germanic peoples(who do not really exist as such, if you consider the meaning), are the only "Master Race" promoters in history, when clearly "master race" theories abound today. The Germans may or may not have been the only people to use the specific term "master race", but so what? ANY claims of superioirty of other peoples is a "Master Race" ideaology. So why make this German-specific? Surely that in itself is racist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.158.152.206 (talk) 12:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this article ever says what you are implying, which is that only Germanic peoples claimed to be of a superior race. You're trying to equate a term with a historical and cultural context with a more generalized notion of racial inequality, that is you're pretending to ignore the history behind the term. "Master race" is well understood as specifically Nazi terminology. As you even state yourself, other races have used different terminology to assert their superiority, for example Jews calling non-Jews "beasts".66.188.125.219 (talk) 04:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

21st century neo-liberal interpretation

Hybrid Vigour. the 'master race' would acheive supremacy in any culture, in any geographical location. (nietzche's idea of the Overman.. assimilating ALL local adaptations? - as a descendant of polish noblemen i think he would not aprove of the Nazi's Eugenic's programme - alliance with Stalin in exterminating his parents' cultures' superior members.)

Hybrid Vigour would achieve the 'master race'. although continual DARWINIAN SELECTION is a pre-requisite. —Preceding the 'overman' would have no need for a 'parent master race'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.189.239 (talk) 16:44, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

hence i justify...

"Materialism Is The Most Humane Form Of Darwinian Selection"

unsigned comment added by 81.153.189.239 (talk) 16:25, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The reason the ruling class has lighter skin

Is because they sit indoors all day and never go out in the sun. That's not science, it's common sense. 199.117.69.8 (talk) 20:48, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Any Proof?

I hereby challenge the claim that the term master race or German: Herrenrasse was a concept in Nazi ideology. I claim it was not but rather a propaganda term used by the Allies.

Please give proof (original sources) that this term was used in speeches or publications by/of any Nazi leaders between 1933 and 1945. 62.226.30.93 (talk) 15:32, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

It would be great if someone could pinpoint when the allies first started using the term 'master race' in relation to the nazis' belief. Was it during the war?--Rusty Tonic (talk) 14:09, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

You are true. There is not a single source for the use of the word "Herrenrasse" by any German official or any written document using it. The whole subject itself was created by Allied prodaganda and developed into its own fictional, fantasy universe fueled mostly by comic & film, and lately video games. --84.171.167.157 (talk) 21:29, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Many European groups are missing on the hierachical list

Greeks and Slavs for example. 199.117.69.60 (talk) 00:14, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Amazing how you WN Stormfront people love to retcon history yet at the same time the types of discussions you have and things you believe in RE-ITERATE history. 97.118.191.93 (talk) 20:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Dubious fictional representations

I have tagged the Fictional representations section as dubious, with a few additional citation tags, rather than just deleting the whole thing outright. Almost everything in here is spurious at best. Starting with the Lovecraft and Howard comments; they may have one or two works about Aryan races but saying that the Master Race concept "underlies much of the work" is a stretch. It goes on to comment on Conan, which seems to me to imply that the character is part of the Aryan Master Race. This is false, the character of Conan is Celtic rather than Teutonic. The section ends with a Star Trek reference, "recovery [after WWIII] is accomplished partly by the European Hegemony." The presence of this comment also seems to imply that European Hegemony is a Nazi institution or otherwise related to a Master Race of some kind. This is unlikely considering the Trek back story (WWIII was also called the "Eugenics Wars" and successfully fought against a Master Race) and the term "European Hegemony" itself is likely to just be a science fiction version of European Union. If no objections are raised, I will delete this section soon. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 13:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

It's true that "Conan" is a Celtic name (probably derived from the historical Conan Meriadoc), but Conan in the stories is a Cimmerian, not a Celt. The Cimmerians were an Iranic people. The point is that Conan is supposed to have existed in an imaginary prehistorical phase before tribal distinctions between Celts, Iranians and others emerged. However, if you look at the Aryan article, you will see that both are "Aryans". You are making the mistake of equating 'Aryan' with 'Germanic'. In fact the Conan stories mirror the "arctic Aryan" origin hypothesis typical of the period. I suspect you are right about the Star Trek passage. The section probably needs to be cleaned up rather than deleted. Lovecraft and Howard (along with Tolkein) are writing in heyday of these theories and their work reflects them, butr Star Trek comes from a different context. Paul B (talk) 13:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Howard uses the Aryan Drift theory with a number of stories but not Conan. Howard's Cimmerians are explicitly stated to be the ancestors of the Celts; s:The Hyborian Age outlines the fictional history of his setting, if you are interested. In his version the Aryans are mostly descended from the Æsir (Viking-equivalents) while "the Gaels, ancestors of the Irish and Highland Scotch, descended from pure-blooded Cimmerian clans." A separate series of stories about James Allison are set during the Aryan Drift, as well as the similar "Children of the Night". The wording at very least needs amended to remove the ambiguity/inference. Searching for "Aryan" and "Lovecraft" on wikisource shows a few works in which he mentions Aryans in passing as a part of history but nothing directly about the Master Race. Lovecraft was a racist (he wrote "The negro is fundamentally the biological inferior of all White and even Mongolian races") and even supported fascism for a while but, again, there is no evidence I can find, and certainly nothing cited in the article, that says about the Master Race. I'm not sure about the accuracy of Buck Rogers fighting for "Aryan-Americans" (again, no citation); the Armageddon 2419 A.D. doesn't seem to support it, mentioning only Americans. The rest are all post WW2 stories deliberately referencing the Nazis; I'm not sure about their inclusion or not ("Series X used fictional Nazi master Race-equivalents in Episode N" isn't really notable). - AdamBMorgan (talk) 17:33, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Forgotten

As much as I despise this concept, I realized they left out Arabs, (Oriental) Asians, Indians and Native Americans. (though that's probably a good thing) 76.179.135.129 (talk) 22:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Problem with article

The problem with this article is the conflation of the specific and the general, with Nazi Herrenvolk and the concept of master race as held by various groups. I think the article should be more general, with sub paragraphs on use by the various groups; if people are so obssessed with the Nazi concept above all others then it should be given a separate page again. And why is this part of WikiProject Jewish history and under Jewish history categories?!--Utinomen (talk) 08:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Suggested merge

As this article is entirely about the Aryan master race concept, I suggest that it would be best to merge it into Aryan race as a new section. Without any other race being covered under the heading of master race, there is no need for a separate article. Mergeing them together should produce a better suingle article than either of the separately. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 17:21, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

The article may now entirely be about the Aryan Master race concept but should it? My counter suggestion is Herrenvolk as a seperate article with the nazi stuff from Aryan race included, and this as a general article--Utinomen (talk) 23:52, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I have just created a more general article called Super race that explores other super race concepts beside the Nazi one. Keraunos (talk) 16:24, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Master race does not always refer to Nordic peoples

Master race is not always referring to Nordic peoples. In Nazism, Hitler for instance believed that the ancient Romans were a master race of their time.--R-41 (talk) 01:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

The Nazis believed the Romans were a master race because they believed the warrior aristocracy of the Romans was composed of Nordic Aryans who had migrated there from Northern Europe in prehistoric times. Keraunos (talk) 16:24, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Aryans were Indians

First of all Aryans were Indians. They originated from India. There was no Aryan Invasion and archelogical evidences prove that there was no invasion. Aryan Invasion is a concocted story by Europen countries because they were unable to accept the fact Indian race was also a Cascasian race. British also emphasized on that false claim so that they can apply the devide and rule policy North India vs South India which they have been well known to do throughout Indian History. Others were Hindu vs Muslim, Sikh vs Hindu, Sikh vs Muslim etc etc. It is quite possible Indian race might be a master race as it is very easy to identify someone has Indian ancestry just by looking at them even if they only have a hint of Indian blood. Other possible master races are Mongoloid and Negroid as these are also easily identifiable just by looking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.57.79.155 (talk) 18:51, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

File:NordischNordic.JPG Nominated for Deletion

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horrible article

There are so many mistakes in that article it is unbelievable. My favorite is idea of one singe, homogenous ideology. [There were many different anthropological schools, different ideas about "Entnordung" (historical reduction of nordic racial elements; the old germanic people were more nordic and therefore considered more "progressive"), about liberalism/birth rates/race mixing reducing the "quality" of human beings), the Ostara-mythologies (wich were never taken seriously) and many different theories

Even the translation "masterrace" is problematic. "Master" and the German "Herr" are not identical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.121.3.31 (talk) 01:13, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:01, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Nietzsche on master races

Nietzsche also talks about "master races."

i don't feel competent to modify the main article, but someone who knows more about this should.

clearly Nietzsche didn't conceptualize his "master races" the way that the Nazi did, and he seems to have had in mind something like one caste ruling over another, a caste that would have partly or fully different origins from their "slaves."

but Nietzsche was largely Lamarckian in his outlook, and culture played a big part in his thinking, that a caste of warriors, reared for generations in a warrior and master ethos, would, as it were, absorb that ethos into their DNA, not that Nietzsche knew about DNA, of course.

for Nietzsche, something similar would happen with slave caste as well.

Hitler and the Nazis, in contrast, seem to have believed that all Aryans were part of the same master race, of course, and destined and fit to rule over lesser peoples.

01:31, 18 March 2013 (UTC) Michael Christian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.23.224.120 (talk)

Slavs and the hierarchy

Why is the Eastern Europeans/Slavs not included in the racial hierarchy?

Arthur de Gobineau certainly mentions them in his book An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races, Slavs are included in it. Source Just type in ctrl + f and you can see yourself the Slavs are mentioned with the Celts too.

This Source also says he included the Slavs as part of the Aryan race.

This hierarchy thus needs to include Eastern and Slavs.--Yamaha Spirit (talk) 19:11, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Gays and Mentally Ill - Introduction

Hitler also exterminated (though not through starvation) Gays, Lesbians and the Mentally Ill due to the Nazi definition of the master race. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.211.247.236 (talk) 18:51, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

No he didn't. Firstly, "Gays and Lesbians" were not "exterminated". Homosexuals could be imprisoned, but that was also true in Britain and the USA at the time. Indeed, Nazi legislation on homosexuality was not repealed after the war. Yes there was the Action T4 programme, in which severely mentally disabled people were killed, but certainly not all people with a mental illness. And in any case, though this was linked to ideas of "racial" health etc, it was not part of the concept of the master race as such, since obviously there are gay and mentally ill members of the "Nordic race" itself. Paul B (talk) 19:12, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Superiority over other races

Can someone please show me a cited source and statement from the Nazis that they believed Germanic people (HerrenVolk/master race) to be superior to every other race out there?

Hitler's Racial Ideology: Content and Occult Sources [3]

Lebensborn [4]

Nothinheavy (talk) 18:34, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

This was tackled Talk:Nazism/Archive_3#Question_regarding_.22Aryan_Supremacy.22 here and nobody can seem to show any of it so why is this put in so many articles? It's the exact same as the blonde hair and blue eyes myth or that only Germanic people were considered 'Aryan'... I look forward to seeing a documented source that shows they [the Nazis] regarded the Germans as a superior master race but bare in mind this "In line with national socialist thinking which does full justice to all other peoples, there is never the expression of superior or inferior, but alien racial admixtures."

In Mein Kampf, Hitler does not speak of any sort of racial superiority neither.--Gordon Yawny (talk) 13:56, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Early US usage

The article cites OED for 1856 being the first US usage of "master race" as contrasted with "slave race". There are two problems. (1) OED does not guarantee to find the first usage of any word and does not say this is the first usage. (2) There were many earlier usages. One quite notable was in the US Congress in 1836, see columns 191 and 197 of this book. There is mention made there to a book by some Pinkerton; probably it would provide an even earlier reference. Zero^talk 04:41, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

This is a retarded article

Hitler had Black people down as the inferiors? Bitch please, Hitler never lynched any Africans.

He Hated Jews, Roma, Slavs.

He was more or less ambiguous when it came to Blacks in the 1930's, and according to African Americans (Jesse Owens and Redtail captured Redtail free)the Third Reich was much less racist then the United States in regards to Blacks.

The U.S needs to stop projecting their White Supremacy and Eugenics (America was doing it long before the Nazi's) onto Germany. Show me a "Colored" and "White" fountain in the 3rd Reich. Show me a racially segregated Hotel in Berlin, I dare you.

Of course, I mean in relation to Blacks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.246.232.41 (talk • contribs)

"in a world which would be composed of mongrels and negroids all ideals of human beauty and nobility and all hopes of an idealized future for our humanity would be lost forever" — Hitler, Mein Kampf. Sounds really ambiguous to me (not). Zero^talk 12:19, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Slavs were Aryans but not part of the Herrenvolk

There seems to be a little bit of confusion as to whether or not Slavs were regarded and accepted as Aryans by the Nazis. Well the truth is, they were. There is no evidence to suggest that the Nazis thought of Slavs as non-Aryan and you will find nowhere these saying as such, in fact I have yet to find the term "untermenschen" (sub-humans) ever be used against the Slavs.

@MyMoloboaccount - your sources are very weak and do not support what you say. Do you have any evidence of the Nazis at all saying Slavs were non-Aryan? If you check the Nuremberg race laws you will see that Slavs were not effected by the racial segregation that the Nazis forced between "Aryans" and "non-Aryans", I think you are misinterpreting the term 'Aryan' and 'master race'. Slavs were not considered part of the herrenvolk (master race), this was preserved for Germanic peoples only and not Slavic peoples, Baltic peoples, Celtic peoples, Romantic peoples, etc etc. We need to go by what the Nazis themselves said and not what some authors confuse Aryan to be with as Germanic or Nordic (your sources). There is evidence directly from the Nazis that they regarded as Slavs as Aryan. In fact, you should also be aware in the case of Poles, after the invasion of Poland the so-called "Aryan side" was mostly all ethnic Poles and some ethnic Germans and many Jews forged "Aryan papers" and tried to pretend to be ethnic Poles to save themselves from Nazi persecution. After the invasion of the Soviet Union it was the Soviet-Communists that were treat harshly as sub-humans but the ethnic Russians in a pamphlet that Himmler documented were called "Aryan" and were pushed to fight against the Jewish Bolsheviks.

Albert Gorter, a prominent minister official gave the definition of Aryan as: The Aryans (also Indo-Germans, Japhetiten) are one of the three branches of the Caucasian (white race);they are divided into the western (European), that is the German, Roman, Greek, Slav, Lett, Celt [and] Albanesen, and the eastern (Asiatic) Aryans, that is the Indian (Hindu) and Iranian (Persian, Afghan, Armenian, Georgian, Kurd). Non-Aryans are therefore: 1. the members of two other races, namely the Mongolian (yellow) and the Negroid (black) races; 2. the members of the two other branches of the Caucasian race, namely the Semites (Jews, Arabs) and Hamites (Berbers). The Finns and the Hungarians belong to the Mongoloid race; but it is hardly the intention of the law to treat them as non-Aryans. Thus . . . the non-Jewish members of the European Volk are Aryans. . . .

Eric Ehrenreich. The Nazi Ancestral Proof: Genealogy, Racial Science, and the Final Solution. Indiana University Press.

From a purely racial standpoint all European peoples belonged to the Aryan family and were thus fundamentally "racially equivalent", and even according to German ethnology it was impossible to speak of a "Slavic race". The justification against the Slavs lay rather in the point of a "depopulation policy" of the East as Slavs and all non-Germans represented a major völkisch threat, as well as the Nazis struggle against Bolshevism.

"Non-Germans" Under the Third Reich: The Nazi Judicial and Administrative by Diemut Majer.

So please do not change the page with false words. If you look at other pages on Wiki you will see Slavs WERE regarded as Aryan by the Nazis, do not try and push forward the myth they were not. Please see the Aryan certificate and the Nuremberg Laws.

Are you aware that under the Third Reich the first people that were killed were "Aryans" even "Germanic" the German Communists? Thousands of "Aryans" were killed.--198.58.112.253 (talk) 07:08, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

@MyMoloboaccount please stop editing and reverting a lot of text into how YOU want this page to look like without looking at your sources. It seems you are confusing largely the difference between Aryan and master race. There is no mention of Slavs to be considered part of the master race but they were regarded as Aryan.

Albert Gorter, a prominent minister official gave the definition of Aryan as: The Aryans (also Indo-Germans, Japhetiten) are one of the three branches of the Caucasian (white race);they are divided into the western (European), that is the German, Roman, Greek, Slav, Lett, Celt [and] Albanesen, and the eastern (Asiatic) Aryans, that is the Indian (Hindu) and Iranian (Persian, Afghan, Armenian, Georgian, Kurd). Non-Aryans are therefore: 1. the members of two other races, namely the Mongolian (yellow) and the Negroid (black) races; 2. the members of the two other branches of the Caucasian race, namely the Semites (Jews, Arabs) and Hamites (Berbers). The Finns and the Hungarians belong to the Mongoloid race; but it is hardly the intention of the law to treat them as non-Aryans. Thus . . . the non-Jewish members of the European Volk are Aryans. . . .

Eric Ehrenreich. The Nazi Ancestral Proof: Genealogy, Racial Science, and the Final Solution.

I will not let this go, I am of Slavic descent myself and people need to know the truth and not false information. Many scholars and authors use the term Aryan to mean German, Germanic or the Nordic race and Slavs could also be Nordic too.

Unless you can refute the claims from Nazi officials themselves then please refrain from editing this page into how you necessarily want it to look like without checking your sources first. No original research is accepted by Wikipedia.--198.58.112.253 (talk) 07:56, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Gobineau and Slavs

He divided the Slavs separate to Aryans when doing the groups as he considered Aryans as the Germanic people, he did not consider Slavs to be beneath them.--82.132.232.160 (talk) 20:57, 28 September 2013 (UTC) Incorrect: Ideology in World Politics - Page 143 Alex Roberto Hybel - 2013 The white race, however, was not entirely pure; it was subdivided, in descending order, into Aryans, Slavs, and Semites. Based on this typology, Gobineau postulated that “the basic organization and character of all civilizations are equal to the The Oxford Handbook of Culture and Psychology - Page 564 Jaan Valsiner - 2012 Gobineau also popularized the idea that among Whites there were various “races ,” with the “Nordics” being the most superior, whereas the Mediterranean and Slav groups were inferior. D.W. Griffith's the Birth of a Nation London Melvyn Stokes University College - 2007 Although the white race also included Celts and Slavs, Aryans made up the “ cream.” Gobineau clearly identified who he thought Aryans were (“the German race”) --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:26, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

So you are not actually putting in the text what the actual source says. The loose term of 'Aryan' as can be seen as defined only to the Germans. Also, inferior and non-Aryan are two different concepts. All your edits are from weak sources, how are these even reliable? Also if you insist on saying he didn't view Slavs as Aryan then Celts should also be mentioned, stop mis representing text. Why are you accepting this as correct yet the Nazi document which includes Slavs as Aryan is not correct?

I also see you're going out your way to go onto pages that mention Aryan and Nazis and remove cited info, please stop this.

Why reply to this but not the section above, do you recognise you are in the wrong and Slavs were regarded as Aryan?--92.17.102.156 (talk) 22:33, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

"The white race, however, was not entirely pure; it was subdivided, in descending order, into Aryans, Slavs, and Semites.". So it is clear that Slavs were not seen as Aryan. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:16, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

As well as the Celts, this is because he classified Aryans as Germans, this does not mean they were "beneath them" (as you wrote it). If you would like to add he excluded Slavs, then also mention Celts as well.

This is also nothing to do with what the Nazis viewed "Aryan" as, I have showed you scholarly info that they were regarded as Aryan.--198.58.112.253 (talk) 09:35, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

According to The Modern Origins of the Early Middle Ages by Ian Wood "Aryans were the Hindus, Iranians, Hellenes, Celts, Slavs, and the Germans".--198.58.112.253 (talk) 09:38, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Poorly sourced for your reasoning that Slavs were excluded, much more sources that indicate Slavs were seen as Aryan by Gobineau.--198.58.112.253 (talk) 09:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

"(including Celts, Thracians, Latins, Hellenes, Slavs, Hindus and Persians)" Honorary Aryans: National-Racial Identity and Protected Jews in the Independent State of Croatia by Nevenko Bartulin.

There is far more sources stating Slavs were regarded as Aryan by him but that the Celts and Slavs were below the Teutonic master race.

When are you going to let this drop and stop editing incorrect information onto pages regarding the so-called Slavs not Aryan chit chat nonsense?--198.58.112.253 (talk) 10:02, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

You are manipulating the source. It doesn't state what you say it states. Also it is clear that Gobineau excluded non-Germans from Aryan race.The Cambridge Companion to Tacitus Page 294 A. J. Woodman - 2009The white race was defined as beautiful, honourable and destined to rule; are 'cette illustre famille humaine, la plus noble'.74 Originally a linguistic term synonymous with Indo-European,7S 'Aryan' became, not least because of the Essai, the designation of a race, which Gobineau specified as 'la race germanique' --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:10, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Not at all, there is nothing to manipulate, there is more sources stating that he DID include others than Germans as part of the Aryan race. It is you that is manipulating lets of pages such as Master race, Ahnenpass, Racial policy of Nazi Germany and Folk, you are using poorly cited sources as evidence for your claims, please check up on Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources and Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable_sources for further info.

Your recent new edit for example on Ahnenpass and using a book called Nursery History Review as the source proves you are not identifying sources correctly.

Do you admit now that Slavs were too regarded as Aryans without getting angry over this, you tried to dispute it yet reliable evidence is there right in front of you to read and confirms that they were part of the loose-term Aryan but not of the herrenvolk aka master race.--198.58.112.253 (talk) 12:22, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

In regards to Gobineau it says now - "Aryan" which included for example the Celts, Slavs and the Germans. However, Gobineau later came to use and reserve the term Aryan only for the "German race" and described the Aryans as 'la race germanique'. - I would say that is fair balanced.--198.58.112.253 (talk) 12:24, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Your recent edit [[5]] is perfectly fine, we should discuss articles like this and come to resolutions between each other instead of having to create several new sections and report each other or go to the help desk, co-operation is the key.

Are you happy with Gobineau article as it is now? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.187.53.216 (talk) 13:01, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Reference in White racist hierarchy section

At the end of the section, there is a mis-formating of the reference, so that content of the reference is in the text, not in the references (there is even a </ref> tag). I don't have sufficient rights to fix this. --Caer-Caveral (talk) 09:24, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks for pointing this out. -- Diannaa (talk) 16:46, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Slavs regarded as Aryans - "No entrance for Poles" sign usage in this article

The "No entrance for Poles" sign which was used by the Nazis during the occupation of Poland has nothing to do with the white hierarchy or the master race concepts. How on earth does it?

In regards to Slavs and their "Aryanness" it is undisputed that the Nazis regarded the Slavs as Aryan, Slavs were regarded as inferior to the Germanic people no doubt but officially they were regarded as 'Aryan', whether people want to admit this or not is up to them, don't add false information.--Windows66 (talk) 10:38, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

This is all becoming very ridiculous that several users are pushing the "Slavs were not Aryans" myth. Let's look at the facts... there is overwhelming evidence that support Slavs were considered to be Aryans. Slavs were eligible for Reich citizenship (non "non-Aryan" could be a citizen of the Reich). Certain Slav ethnic groups were used as examples of Aryans in the world. Slavs suffered no discrimination because of their racial origins since they were racially the same as the Germans when the Nuremberg Laws came enforced into law in 1935.

I'm well aware certain authors and historians push the examples of non-Aryans as Jews, Gypsies, Slavs. But the evidence for Slavs is missing, thankfully some authors and historians do tell the truth that Slavs were regarded as Aryans, that is all.

Nowhere in Nazi terminology were Slavs given the non-Aryan status. Anti-Slavism DID exist, I do not deny this and there were some Nazis like Himmler who thought of them as mixed race with Mongols and only drops of the Nordic blood but officially they were Aryans.

I'm not going to be accused of being a sockpuppet simply because of this as I have done, a lot of other Wikipedia users have questioned this, just see the talk pages for this.--Windows66 (talk) 11:16, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

When did National-Socialists ever use the term "master-race" (Herrenrasse)?

The fundamental premise of the article is wrong and based on war-propaganda. The term master-race (Herrenrasse) does not appear in any German National-Socialist literature that I have seen (although you might see it in the literature of some American group influenced by Hollywood).

The doctrine of the NSDAP was very clear on the point that Volk and Rasse are two different things, but Anglo-American propaganda of the Second World War pretended that it was legitimate to render Herrenvolk as "master race." Unfortunately we still have a lot of people regurgitating that old propaganda.

Herrenvolk really just means something like hegemonic people. Racial superiority is (obviously) not a prerequisite for being a hegemonic people. The French under Napoleon were called a Herrenvolk.

The term Herrenvolk, which is not correctly translated as master-race, appears just once in Mein Kampf, and the way that Hitler used it there is not inconsistent with the way it was used a century before the NSDAP was even formed.

If there is going to be an article about "master race" it should probably be an article about Nietzsche and people influenced by him, and about Anglo-American war-propaganda, because those are the places where the term and the concept are found. Your Buddy Fred Lewis (talk) 03:50, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Heinrich Himmler and family.

Heinrich Himmler was one of the main champions of the Master Race in Germany, of which he considered himself a member, of course, along with his family. Why not show a picture of him and his family in the article?

This is a significant one: http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/01/28/why_himmler_letters_deserve_closer_study_mallick.html

Petter--- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3498:5EC0:B5A9:9124:9FFB:F011 (talk) 23:57, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

United States section is off topic.

There is one out-of-place section dealing with slavery in the US while the rest of the article is about a concept specific to the Nazi ideology. An article should have one subject and not go on tangents like this, even if the Confederates did use the phrase ”master race" at some point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.3.2 (talk) 07:11, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

So tantalizing!

This sentence contradicts so-called "common knowledge": "In attempting to scientifically prove the racial inferiority of Slavs, German (and Austrian) racial scientists were forced to gloss over their findings which consistently found that Early Slavs were dolicocephalic and fair haired, i.e., 'Nordic'..." yet cites no source literature for those readers interested in further studying the topic.209.242.149.240 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:36, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Master Race, Herrenrasse, Harrenvolk and the Nazis

Does it really mean Master Race and did the Nazi's really use the term?

Contrary to widespread belief in the United States, Germans during the period of Hitler's rule did not habitually refer to themselves as members of “the master race.” The accusation that Germans in general regarded themselves as the master-race had been made during the First World War, and even at that time it was essentially false. The term master-race had been used in English (e.g. "Master Race"&f=false John H. van Evrie, "Master Race"&f=false White Supremacy and Negro Subordination, New York, 1868, p. 38) long before the propaganda of the First World War accused the Germans of regarding themselves as “the master-race” fit to rule over Anglo-Saxons (as represented e.g. by the "master race"&f=false New York Times Current History of the War, 1915, p. 118). Noteworthy in this kind of propaganda were quotes from Karl Felix Wolff, a self-taught Austrian folklorist and poet who wrote for Alldeutsche Blätter and Mannus, and, because of his eccentric views, was usefully quoted in the Entente's anti-German propaganda. To impart greater importance to Wolff's statements, he was sometimes identified as a “Pan-German leader” ("master race"&f=false Theosophical Quarterly, April 1917, p. 301), or called “Dr.” Wolff (Anton Nystrom, Before, During, and After 1914, New York, 1916, pp. 47-48), when in reality he was merely a writer without academic credentials. The term master-race (Herrenrasse), while it had been used by a fringe-figure during the First World War, seems not to have been used in German National-Socialist literature at all. The word does not appear in Mein Kampf, nor in Rosenberg's Mythus, nor in any German National-Socialist material that I have seen. Herrenvolk appears several times in Mein Kampf, but this word is not properly translated as “master-race” (although such invidious mistranslation is commonplace). Herrenvolk is a general term referring to any people that happens to rule over another people, like the Normans in Mediaeval England, or, subsequently, the British in their empire. A German publication from 1933 states: “The Romans were undoubtedly the most important hegemonic people (Herrenvolk) of world-history” (Monatsschrift für das Deutsche Geistesleben, 1933, p. 317). Herrenvolk thus denotes imperial achievement rather than racial quality. Even this misunderstood word Herrenvolk was not, however, an important element of National-Socialist propaganda. Ferdinand Hermens, an associate professor of economics at Notre Dame University who was familiar with the situation in Germany, attempted to correct this misconception: “The point, of course, is that the German press and radio do not talk eternally about Germans as the Herrenvolk.” ("The+point,+of+course,+is+that+the+German+press+and+radio+do+not+talk+eternally+about+Germans+as+the+Herrenvolk.” F. Hermens, "The+point,+of+course,+is+that+the+German+press+and+radio+do+not+talk+eternally+about+Germans+as+the+Herrenvolk.” The Tyrants' War and the People's Peace, U. Chicago Press 1944, p. 235) The belief that Germans during the period of Hitler's rule habitually spoke of themselves as the master-race was due to the residual influence of Anglo-American propaganda of the First World War, which the Anglo-American propaganda of the Second World War largely copied.

Now, you may not like this guy but he has a point: "MASTER RACE" NOT A TERM USED BY THE NATIONAL SOCIALISTS or THE STORY OF HOW A SINGLE RARE WORD -- "HERRENVOLK" -- WAS MISTRANSLATED AS "MASTER RACE" and Use of word "Master Race" at First Nuremberg Trial Alan Simon Thomas (talk) 16:52, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:39, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

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IP editor edit-warring to include inappropriate material

An IP editor is attempting to add this material to the article. It was taken directly from Honorary Aryan. I contend it is not pertinent to this article.

Additionally, the Han Chinese and Japanese races were both considered by Nazi Germany to be "Aryans of the East", "Honorary Aryans" and the "Herrenvolk of the Orient" (i.e. the "Master race of the Orient").

Adolf Hitler said:

"Pride in one's own race, and that does not imply contempt for other races, is also a normal and healthy sentiment. I have never regarded the Chinese or the Japanese as being inferior to ourselves. They belong to ancient civilizations, and I admit freely that their past history is superior to our own. They have the right to be proud of their past, just as we have the right to be proud of the civilization to which we belong. Indeed, I believe the more steadfast the Chinese and the Japanese remain in their pride of race, the easier I shall find it to get on with them."
--Adolf Hitler, The Political Testament of Adolf Hitler, Note #5, February 1945 - April 1945

Due to the Nazi German status of Han Chinese and Japanese as "Aryans of the East" Adolf Hitler had allowed Han Chinese soldiers to study in German military academies and serve in the Nazi German Wehrmacht as part of their combat training. In addition, during Hsiang-Hsi Kung's 1937 visit to Nazi Germany, Adolf Hitler, Hermann Göring and Hjalmar Schacht earmarked for 100,000 reichsmarks for Han Chinese students studying in the universities and military academies of Nazi Germany. The most famous of these Han Chinese Nazi soldiers was Chiang Wei-kuo, the son of Republic of China (Taiwan) President Chiang Kai-Shek, who studied military strategy and tactics at a Nazi German Kriegsschule in Munich, and subsequently achieved the rank of lieutenant and served as a soldier in the Wehrmacht on active combat duty in Europe until his return to the Republic of China (Taiwan) during the later years of World War II.

Would other editors please comment, I can't get this IP to stop adding this stuff. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:32, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

References

• All pertinent WikiProjects notified. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:38, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

IMO, it does appear to be pertinent. I can't see any reason why the concept of a master race would be limited to the European phenomenon. Furthermore, Hitler's fetish for east asians is fairly important when considering the broader geopolitical impacts it had, especially in relation to his support for Chiang Kai Shek and the Japanese Empire. BrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}})} 14:19, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

You should read the material again. It has nothing to do with the concept of the Chinese or Japanese as a "Master race", and is simply about Hitler's impressions of the relative value of those people. Nowhere in the information given is there an indication that he, or the Nazis in general, considered them to be a "master race" in the sense that they believed "Aryans" were. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:13, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 April 2018

Paragraph 1 of "Mediterranean race" section:

"The fact that the Mediterranean race is responsible for the most important of ancient western civilisations was a problem for the promoters of Nordic superiority"

Requesting change to:

"The fact that the Mediterranean race is responsible for the most important of ancient western civilisations was a problem for the promoters of Nordic superiority" Newbreedzero (talk) 01:01, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Not done. Fact is obvious on its face - what ancient Western civilization was not Mediterannean based? Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:30, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Are Celts or Germanic peoples like Franks considered Western? They were in Europe, and not on the Mediterranean. Mathglot (talk) 05:21, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

I would say that they were "Western", but did not build an "ancient civilization". Their's were considerably later than that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:57, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

"Inferior race" listed at Redirects for discussion

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