Talk:Maryland Terrapins football

Maryland Terrapins football has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
September 26, 2009	Good article nominee	Listed

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

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Broken Link

I don't know how to fix the broken link: ^ This Day in History November 10, 1984: Maryland gets a miracle in Miami, The History Channel, retrieved September 6, 2009. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.143.100.108 (talk) 16:58, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Early conference

I had originally written that Maryland was in the "South Atlantic Intercollegiate Athletic Association" from 1918 to 1921, which later became part of the Southern Conference. This was edited to say "Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association". My original source was the official Terrapins supporter club the Gridiron Network. I did a little google searching, and found many sources saying that Maryland, as well as Virginia Tech, Virginia, NC State, etc. were part of the "South Atlantic Intercollegiate Athletic Association", not "Southern"...

Here's another source quoting VT as in the SAIA: "The Hokies would play in the South Atlantic Intercollegiate Athletic Association from 1907 to 1921, and would eventually play in the Southern Conference of the NCAA Division I-A football from 1922 to 1964, winning the conference title in the 1963 season, recording a record of 8 wins, and 2 losses."

Then the Southern Conference official site calls it the Southern IAA... But that may be biased towards the term Southern versus South Atlantic...?

I wonder if it was orginially called the South Atlantic IAA, and later changed to Southern, or what? It seems odd that several sources, including the official Maryland one, would quote it is as being called the SAIAA.

Can anyone provide a more definitive source/answer either way?

Since I consider the official Maryland site a more definitive source for their history than the SoCon, I am changing that part back. If someone can provide a more definitive reference to the contrary, please do.

Whatever it was called, I have a source stating that Maryland was in it from 1918 until 1921, so I'm changing that part back as well.

Strikehold (talk) 03:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think I may have it... This is just speculation but, according to the SoCon source, the Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association consisted of 30 members. My assumption is that there may have been some sub-conference level group called South Atlantic, composed of (future ACC) teams like UMD, UVA, VT, NCSU, etc... If anyone could confirm this it would be appreciated.Strikehold (talk) 03:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I started to wonder whether there truly ever was a "South Atlantic Intercollegiate Athletic Association". If you google there are very few reference to it and they all appear to trace back to something that was likely cut and pasted or blatantly lifted from Wikipedia articles on the schools we both noticed, VT, Virginia, etc., I did find a New York Times article that backed the SIAA belief. I noticed the Maryland website timeline, but I have to question it's accuracy.(Who knows which athletic dept. intern was given the duty?) It's very possible, given the title of the NYT headline, that the SIAA went by a shortened name and that the official name, as provided in the body of the article, included "Southern". http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9D00E7D9103FE432A25751C1A9649D946195D6CF or http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9D00E7D9103FE432A25751C1A9649D946195D6CF Mdlawmba (talk) 06:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ETA: I changed the SIAA article to reflect the information in the NYT article. It was interesting to see the reason why they actually split: Maryland, along with the other schools, wanted a ban on freshman athletes and wanted to prohibit players from playing professional baseball in the summer. Mdlawmba (talk) 07:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting... I noticed the same thing when searching google on both instances; it's ironic that Wikipedia is such a popular source, that it's actually difficult to independently verify with first-source information on the internet. Anyway, regarding SIAA/SAIAA, you've convinced me. I went ahead and changed it back to SIAA. Thanks for your help. Strikehold (talk) 08:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was doing some further research on the team's early years while working on the list Maryland Terrapins football seasons, and I ran into the same problems I encountered when writing this article. Namely, I was trying to figure out the conference records for the SIAA during Maryland's membership. After a little research, it seems that Maryland was not a member of the Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association (SIAA) [1] (quote: "It then had 14 members. Eight, ... were SIAA members. The other six, [including] Maryland ... were not."), and there does seem to have been a South Atlantic Intercollegiate Athletic Association [2] (the source does not explicitly state Maryland as a member of the SAIAA, but does seem to say UVA, VT, and Johns Hopkins are). This from a Maryland football media guide shows Maryland as a member of the SAIAA in 1920 [3], which states: "Maryland’s conference affiliations: Atlantic Coast Conference since 1953, Southern Conference from 1921-51 (SC standings not available from 1921-32) and South Atlantic Intercollegiate Athletic Association in 1920." I'm going to keep looking into it, but for now I'm going to go ahead and make the changes back to refer to the SAIAA. Strikehold (talk) 01:25, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proof of S.A.I.A.A. existence

I've finally found conclusive proof that Maryland belonged to an organization called the "South Atlantic Intercollegiate Athletic Association": A 1921 document from the NCAA clearly shows on page 112: Catholic, Davidson, Georgetown, George Washington, Maryland, North Carolina, Virginia, VMI, among unknown others as members of the South Atlantic Intercollegiate Athletic Association. [4]

If that is still not sufficient, here is a run down of many other sources pointing to the existence of a "South Atlantic Intercollegiate Athletic Association" (SAIAA), separate from the Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association (SIAA). Any single one of these wouldn't necessarily refute the one NYT article that claims that Maryland and others were SIAA members, but together it begins to look like a strong case against it:

New York Times confirms in 1913 that Virginia, Va Tech, Johns Hopkins, Georgetown, North Carolina, NC State (then A&M), and Washington & Lee were members of an SAIAA: [5]
2008 Maryland Football Media Guide places Maryland in SAIAA in 1920: [6]
Maryland Gridiron Network, official Maryland booster organization: [7]
College Football Data Warehouse: [8]
An essay on the LA84 Foundation website which actually describes the schism within the SIAA, and reports that eight SIAA and six non-SIAA members (all of which have previously been described as SAIAA members) formed the Southern Conference: [9]
The book Tales from the Terrapins states that Maryland in 1921, beat Washington & Lee the "South Atlantic Champions": [10]
The book History of the University of North Carolina confirms UVA, UNC, W&L, JHU, NCSU, and GU as SAIAA members in 1911 and/or 1912: [11]
A 1918 Johns Hopkins Alumni Magazine confirms JHU as SAIAA participant: "The outdoor [track] season came to an end on Thanksgiving Day with the fourth annual championship run of the South Atlantic Intercollegiate Athletic Association" [12]
1918 New York Times index: "South Atlantic Intercollegiate Meet- Won by Georgetown" [13]
A NCAA document has a mention dating to 1912: [14]
The Spalding's Official Football Guide mentions "All-South Atlantic" players many times, this may be a region or a conference affiliation. On page 79, Gallaudet players are mentioned here as being named to the Washington Post All-South Atlantic team. On page 280, UVA and W&L are described as the best teams in the "South Atlantic section" (a seemingly strange choice of words as the region is usually described as the Mid-Atlantic). On page 195, "Fred K. Nielsen [who later becomes a Maryland coach], who won the championship of the South Atlantic section for two years at Georgetown and one year at George Washington." On page 39, it lists the NC A&M/State coach's choice for the "All-South Atlantic Eleven" team: [15]
In the book One Thousand New Hampshire Notables, an individual's bio, John William Hobbs Pollard, includes the position of "president South-Atlantic Intercollegiate Athletic Ass'n" from 1915 up to the book's publication date (1919): [16]
A 1915 Catholic University Bulletin states that on "February 23, the Catholic University was admitted to membership on the South Atlantic Intercollegiate Athletic Association. This association, composed of the larger universities in this section of the country, has for its aim to promote a healthy spirit of rivalry among its members and to establish higher and more uniform standards in intercollegiate sport." [17]
The book History of the North Carolina State College of Agriculture and Engineering says on page 115, "the team placed third in the South Atlantic Intercollegiate [track] meet at Baltimore". [18]
A 1913 American Physical Education Association document entitled American Physical Education Review: "...made in the past to bring these colleges into an association for the purpose of adopting more uniform rules, but these efforts have failed until last spring, when the South Atlantic Intercollegiate Athletic Association was organized, with Mr. J.T. England of Baltimore, as president, and the following colleges as members: Johns Hopkins, Georgetown, Virginia Polytechnic Institute [Virginia Tech]..." [19]

This should hopefully put to rest the assumption that the SAIAA existed only as a typographical error long after the fact. It also serves as a warning not to put too much emphasis on online sources for long-past specialist topics. Strikehold (talk) 22:32, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Depth chart

I have a couple issues with the depth chart of 'projected starters' that was added.. Firstly, it's in an odd place in the article, between current NFL players and notable former players. Secondly, what is the source for this information? Nothing official has yet been released from the school, and the "projected" part gives me the impression it's original research. And lastly, if it is attributable and not original research, then since it is relevant to the '08 squad, it would probably be more appropriately place in the 2008 Maryland Terrapins football team article.

GA Review

I have assessed the article as per its good article nomination and the article has been put on hold for seven days. Please read the review page here to see what issues need to be solved. Thanks. JRA_Westy Qld2 ^Talk 23:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted for 2nd opinion. JRA_Westy Qld2 ^Talk 07:58, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

national championships

NCAA does not recognize College Football championships...They only started to in the 80s and that was for Div I-aa

Why does it say Maryland has "two NCAA recognized NCAA championships" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.175.157 (talk) 01:59, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edsall era

The last sentence stating that Edsall is a "cancer" should be removed. Something well written and sourced about the controversy of the hire, Edsall's ridiculous comments about "turning the program around" after following on the heals of a 9-4 season and bowl win, and how disappointing the 2011 season has been overall would be much more appropriate. Jurban48 (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Image deletion discussion

Relevant deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Files_for_deletion/2011_December_28#File:Marylandhelmet.png.--GrapedApe (talk) 17:08, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Uniform and Logo Updates

The current uniforms and log are incorrect, as Under Armor overhauled everything last year. The university provided pictures of uniform combinations ( http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QHHySU9sw68/Ts18a7Vr-EI/AAAAAAAAES8/6ltyqKKhwZs/s1600/Uniform%2Bvs%2BNC%2BState.jpg ), but these do not match the standard Wikipedia template. I could try to put something together on that template, but the question is which ones do we show? Even with the helmets separated, there are 16 combinations of shirts / pants. Also, the "Terps" logo has been phased out. The school is now emphasizing "Maryland". A better logo to display would be ( http://www.pagecovers.com/covers/university/maryland_merrapins_logo.jpg ), which is now the most common logo displayed in relation to the team. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.183.80.104 (talk) 19:27, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we need to get rid of the "Terps" script and update. I'd like to try to see if we can reach a consensus on which of the wordmarks and/or logos to use, since there are numerous Maryland Terrapin pages on Wikipedia. I think that all of the options we should consider are on this page (a pdf document from UMD, also the same one that Markar14 used for his update to this page).

I see two major graphics that should be used, and one alternative that could see some use:

The "primary wordmark" - the word MARYLAND with the flag bar underneath (view a sample here); this is what Markar14 used recently to update this page;
The "primary athletic mark" - an updated Testudo with a bigger "M" and without the word "MARYLAND" behind him (view a sample here); and
The "secondary wordmark" - the word MARYLAND with the flag bar underneath and the word TERRAPINS underneath the flag bar (view a sample here).

There are a quite a few different Maryland Terrapins pages on Wikipedia. They essentially break down into several major groups:

The primary Maryland Terrapins page;
Team-specific pages, e.g. the football team, men's basketball team, men's lacrosse team, etc.
Individual team season pages, e.g. 2011 Maryland Terrapins football team
Rivalry pages, e.g. Maryland–West Virginia football rivalry, Johns Hopkins–Maryland rivalry, etc.
Facilities pages, e.g. Byrd Stadium
"other" stuff (anything that doesn't fall into one of the categories above)

As I see it, we should keep the graphics consistent for each page in every category (right now they are not), with the exception of using older wordmarks and/or athletic marks for individual seasons during which the Terps used a different logo and/or athletic mark.

My vote would be to adopt the following "policy" for Maryland Terrapins pages:

The main Maryland Terrapins page, all team-specific pages, and all facilities pages use the primary wordmark in the InfoBox.
The main Maryland Terrapins page also features the current athletic mark somewhere else on the page.
The rivalry pages use the athletic mark in the InfoBox (this seems to be relatively common on Wikipedia).
Pages for specific team seasons use whatever primary wordmark was in use during that season in the InfoBox.
Pages that I have seen that are not in any of these categories don't appear to have an InfoBox, so it may be useful to use the secondary wordmark (that has both MARYLAND and TERRAPINS as part of it).

I'll go along with whatever the consensus is, of course, but I'd prefer to actually have a consensus of some sort if that is possible. Please add your opinion to the discussion. Mdak06 (talk) 21:43, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After looking at more facilities pages around Wikipedia, it appears that it makes more sense not to include the wordmark in the InfoBox on those pages at all. Mdak06 (talk) 13:36, 11 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That approach makes sense to me. I think it'd be better to use the athletic mark in most contexts rather than the wordmark—though using it for specific seasons/years is also fine. At the same time, I don't know that these logos need to be inserted into every article having to do with UM, like the Byrd Stadium article, where there's no convenient place to put it. Probably just where there's an appropriate place in infoboxes, or where it updates from the "Terps" script. acomas (talk) 23:24, 11 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your guidelines for which logo to use. Although the Testudo graphic is still the primary logo, it's nearly non-existent on any piece of marketing material used by the university in recent years; take a look at the new "Maryland Pride" page that just went live as an example. ([20]). It's all wordmark, all the time. At least for football, the wordrmark is the correct approach. With basketball, the past 15 years have used the M-flag graphic ([21]}, but that's not currently on the university's branding site. We'll see once basketball marketing starts in a few months if this is also a discontinued graphic. I'm also really close to completing the new uniforms under the current Wikimedia template... terraprint, terrafont, and all. I'll keep everyone posted on that. Markar14 (talk) 15:29, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Update--I added the uniform based on the existing template. I made sure that each color of top and bottom was used, but not necessarily ones that were used last season. I could go back and make sure it includes all eleven combos used (list here [22]), but I don't think that's necessary. Oregon's page doesn't show all 11 combos they used, and I'd say that's a good example to emulate (on Wikipedia only, not in fashion). If anybody notices anything inaccurate from the designs, or has better software to redo it, that's totally fine. Markar14 (talk) 21:14, 13 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies for not updating the uniform image, but I'm no longer providing uniform images for Wikipedia. I hate to say it, but you guys are on your own. --Kevin W./Talk•CFB uniforms/Talk 04:43, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in Maryland Terrapins football

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Maryland Terrapins football's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "results":

From List of Maryland Terrapins football honorees: Year-By-Year Results (PDF), 2007 Terrapin Football Record Book, University of Maryland, 2007.
From 1940 Stanford Indians football team: Stanford Yearly Results: 1940–1942, College Football Data Warehouse, retrieved July 28, 2009. Archived 2009-07-30.
From Tommy Mont: Year-By-Year Results (PDF), 2007 Terrapin Football Record Book, University of Maryland, 2007, retrieved 16 January 2009.
From 1954 Orange Bowl: Orange Bowl Results, Fedex Orange Bowl Official Site, retrieved January 19, 2009.

Reference named "cfbdw":

From Clark Shaughnessy: All-Time Coaching Records: Clark D. Shaughnessy, College Football Data Warehouse, retrieved August 15, 2010.
From Curley Byrd: All-Time Coach Records by Year: Curley Byrd, College Football Data Warehouse, retrieved July 4, 2010.
From College Football Data Warehouse: College Football Data Warehouse, retrieved August 19, 2010.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:11, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

article naming convention for early teams

The article naming convention currently progresses, like:

1892 Maryland Aggies football team

...

2016 Maryland Terrapins football team

Starting with 1892, a case can be made for renaming as "M.A.C", "Maryland Agricultural", or leaving as-is. UW Dawgs (talk) 06:17, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

conference affiliations

@MisterCake: See 2016 Maryland FB Record Book pg 2 and "Updated: Nov. 22, 2016.'

1892-1919: No conference affiliation
1920: SAIAA
1921-1951: Southern Conference
1952: Independent
1953-2013: ACC
2014-2015/"present": Big Ten

In this PDF, do a find on "SAIAA" (or "South Atlantic Intercollegiate Athletic Assoc") and there are 3 matches with each being contextual to the 1920 season and 1-1 record. Also note "• — indicates conference games" (pg6) isn't invoked until the 1920 season (pg7) and is used consistently per the above conference affiliations for all seasons (less 1952, as an independent).

What's your source for SAIAA narrowly in football for years outside of 1920? UW Dawgs (talk) 04:15, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You have a point; they could have been members for just track. Cake (talk) 04:19, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

May need to look at Gallaudet too Cake (talk) 04:22, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like a doppleganger for "All Pacific Coast" which typically was dominated by Pacific Coast Conference players but included players from non-PCC teams (1925 All-Pacific Coast football team and St. Mary's for example, never PCC/Pac8/10/10 in football). UW Dawgs (talk) 04:37, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it's all-regional, which is not necessarily all-conference, but suggestive - hence I bring up Gallaudet. Cake (talk) 04:42, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See this too. Cake (talk) 04:24, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've twice raised an org (ala NCAA/NAIA) vs conference (Big Ten) debate on the current CFB project talk page. This might bolster an argument that SAIAA is a rules/scoring systems/governing body rather than a "conference" at least in football. UW Dawgs (talk) 04:37, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It was a track conference most of all, but I think that is possibly normal for the time. The SIAA was the same way, with presidents, etc. Cake (talk) 04:42, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A good baseball source I assumed 1920 was just all they could confirm. Cake (talk) 04:27, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@MisterCake:, can you revert your recent Maryland football edits to remove the SAIAA content and restore the Independent content? UW Dawgs (talk) 02:56, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is all correct now. Two articles had oddities:

1952 Maryland Terrapins football team (last year prior to ACC) didn't include the SoCon standings. That season, Maryland was under SoCon sanctions which prevented them from scheduling league games. I've added the SoCon conf standings template, added Maryland's record and a note re sanctions to the SoCon template, and added a cite within the article re sanctions.
1921 Maryland Aggies football team - The Media Guide says SoCon, which apparently didsn't exist until 1922. Sp the article has SAIAA content and an inline "disputed" tag still in the page. If we can firm up SAIAA, that should be reflected on the article.

UW Dawgs (talk) 23:31, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, these were reverted and now we have them in two standings. Not sure of the issue, so tagged as disputed:

Thoughts? UW Dawgs (talk) 08:19, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Maryland and UNC seem to be in the SAIAA from 1916 to 1921 at least, despite the media guides ignorance. See the comments by Strikehold a bit above ours. Cake (talk) 08:36, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please link or quote with cite, as I have done. UW Dawgs (talk) 16:10, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just scroll up a bit on this page to the section entitled "Proof of SAIAA existence". Full of links.Cake (talk) 11:23, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please clearly link to whatever support you believe exists, as I have clearly done atop this section. UW Dawgs (talk) 17:25, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It just seems redundant to do so: here. Cake (talk) 18:14, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I decline to read a wall of text to hunt for a someone else's alleged citation which you believe will support your contested edit. Your ongoing refusal clearly provide a supporting citation remains at odds with WP:BURDEN and WP:V. UW Dawgs (talk) 19:51, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here are the two citations I have reviewed. Note the Pollak cite is a football-specific book, rather than conference broadly defined. Anyone is welcome to add additional columns/citations as helpful to resolve. I have not yet posted intial newspapers.com searches. Stipulated that no single citation should be taken on face value.

	Pollak (pg. 226)	2018 Media Guide (pg. 2-3)
Independent	1892–1893
MIFA	1894–1897 (no team 1895)
Independent	1898–1917	1892–1919 (no team 1895)
SAIAA	1918–1921	1920
SoCon	1922–1951	1921–1951
Independent	1952	1952
ACC	1953–2013	1953–2013
Big Ten	2014–present	2014–present

So there are 4 inconsistencies re football participation.

If/when they participated in the Maryland Intercollegiate Football Association
When the team stopped being independent, 1917 or 1919
Years in the SAIAA
If the team played in 1921 in the Southern Conference. Cheers, UW Dawgs (talk) 01:52, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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