Talk:Mary Tudor

Requested move 11 September 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. No such user (talk) 09:47, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mary Tudor → Mary Tudor (disambiguation) – ~~And redirect to Mary I of England as a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT.~~ --Nevé –selbert 22:48, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:19, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Neve-selbert: Best discuss. She is usually called "Queen Mary". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:19, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Easily the most common usage of Mary Tudor by a mile. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:30, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Necrothesp is so completely wrong. Mary I of England is rarely called "Mary Tudor", being "Queen Mary" or "Mary the First", and the young princess Mary Tudor was famously the only Mary Tudor first. Over her tumultuous life, she repeatedly briefly changed her name, she is not better known by any other name, Mary Tudor, Queen of France being an awkward title, she being consort so briefly. Henry's sister is too well known as Mary Tudor for his daughter, not known contemporarily as Tudor, to be considered PrimaryTopic. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:01, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is difficult to find a source to attest that Mary I, and similarly Henry VIII, Edward VI, Elizabeth I, Arthur, and Margaret pre-marriage were not called "Tudor", but excepting modern fiction and formal naming that is more apocryphal than historical, the use of "Tudor" was dropped by the time of the second Tudor king. Henry VIII was born royal, and custom then and now was not to use a family surname. Henry Tudor was different, previously well known as the Earl of Richmond, as king, he was called "Henry Tudor", and coming after a time of kings from multiple families, his children were called "Tudor" after their father. By the time of his grandchildren, there had only been one royal family for two generations, the Welsh surname was no longer prominent. The non-royal royal surname only gets used when it has just been changed.

If you want to look at sources, http://tudorhistory.org/people/m.html lists two "Mary Tudor"s.

There is no Primary Topic, and if there had to be, the first, who is always called "Tudor", unlike the second who was not then called "Tudor", actually holds the better claim. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:12, 20 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - there seems to be enough doubt between Mary I and her aunt, and Google results are mixed, that a dab page will serve us best. — Amakuru (talk) 11:04, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Readers are far better served by a DAB at the base name in such cases. Andrewa (talk) 00:35, 21 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per SmokeyJoe, et al. I admit that I was quite hasty in requesting this move.--Nevé –selbert 08:14, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Mary Tudor/Mary I

Just to clarify my position (since I didn't get a chance to respond in the above debate), certainly when I was growing up (in England), if one said "Mary Tudor" one was invariably referring to Mary I. In fact, that was by far the most common name by which she was known to my parents' and grandparents' generations. And while I would call her Mary I, she's still the first person I would think of if the name Mary Tudor was mentioned. While that doesn't appear to be quite so common any more, to say she is rarely known by this name is certainly not true. I don't know if it's a generational thing, but there it is. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:55, 25 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]