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Talk:Martin Rakovský

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Created in accordance with WIkiProject Slovakia's goal of creating pages for Slovak poets and authors. Feel free to help make this better! Demokratickid (talk) 18:01, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

He used the Rakóczy as pen-name, as the name of the family-estate was called "Rakouch," where the name "Rákóc" derives from.

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  • He used the name Martinus Rakocius de Rakow (Latin declension: Martinum Rakocium, Martini Rakoci, Martino Rakocio, etc), sometimes Rakowsky/Rakowski. Definitely not Rakóczy and never Márton.
  • The name of his family members (see also his own poems) was Rakowsky, Rakovsky. E.g. "De obitu Georgii Rakowsky", "Stephano Rakowsky, patri suo", etc. Also not Rakóczy or even Rakovszky. The form "Martinus Rakowsky" was used also in official communication, e.g. "scriba camerae istius Martinus Rakowsky hac sua praesentibus" signed Maximilianus (= Maximus dei gratia Bohemiae Rex) or by his collegues.
  • The name of his family estate was Rakov (in the medieval transcription Rakow). For now, I have no serious doubts that the name "Rakauch" also existed (I mean the Hungarized Latin transcription - a derived, secondary name, maybe from older *Rakovec, like Lipovec become Lypouch?, it's not important). Nevertheless, he used a nobiliary particle "de Rakow". Ditinili (talk) 19:16, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Answers:

  • The name format used in modern scientific publications is the important. John Hunyadi never used the name John Hunyadi (nor Hunyadi János etc.), as well as Adam František Kollár never used Adam František Kollár.
  • False. See, among others, István Rakovszky and Iván Rakovszky.
  • "Rakow" represents former Hungarian orthography. As well as "Ferencz Deák". But I do not think that we should rename article Ferenc Deák.

--Norden1990 (talk) 19:29, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

1) I agree. However, modern ENGLISH scientific publications do not prefer something like "Márton Rakovszky".
2) What? István Rakovszky was born in 1885. 350 years later. I mean the contemporary name. We cannot say that Schmidth was Šmíd, just because some of his descendants who was born 350 years later used such name. Unless it is the well known or the prevailing name in EN sources. Can you prove it?
3) Rakow is the "Hungarian transcription" of Rakauch or Rákóc, like Rostov is Japanese. Ditinili (talk) 19:51, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have checked the history of the article and the usage in English sources. The article was moved (without a discussion or any serious references) from "Martin Rakovský" with a reasonable number of references in EN publications to "Márton Rakovszky" by you personally. "Márton Rakovszky" is not used in EN sources or it is used so rarely, that it is not even covered by the google scholar.
"Márton Rakovszky": 0 google scholar results. (Search EN only)
For the comparison, "Martin Rakovský":
I am reverting your move and I am restoring the original version until you document the reasonable usage of Márton Rakovszky in EN sources. Ditinili (talk) 05:56, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, I also checked GB results and I support move to Martin Rakovsky (or move to his Humanist name, like Nicolaus Olahus and Janus Pannonius).

Thank you. I had also thought about his Latin humanist name as a good, neutral solution, but I am afraid that 0 results for "Martinus Rakocius" in google scholar (EN only) vs. existing references to "Martin Rakovský" makes such step a little bit problematic. Ditinili (talk) 06:31, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Then Rakovsky is acceptable for me. A note: in Hungarian literature, he is a marginal figure, while in Slovakia, he is considered as one of the first ethnic Slovak poets. That is why his Slovak name is more widespread in English-language sources.
Maybe, he is one of main representatives of Slovak humanistic literature. Just for the clarification, there is a well preserved family archive from the 16th century. His closest family (including him) used Slovakized Czech with a various quality (as it was common in that time) in the written communication with neighboring noblemen, never Hungarian. Ditinili (talk) 07:01, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Several branches of the family (of Transylvanian origin, anyway) were Slovakized over the centuries, alongside other noble families in Upper Hungary (Jeszenszky, Beniczky, Justh etc.), while others remained Hungarians. --Norden1990 (talk) 16:22, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If somebody firmly believes that Rakovsky, Jesensky, Benicky, Lehotsky, etc, etc are Hungarian names, why not. Surely, Kowalski, Poluski, Koscuszko and Miesko were English-speaking Americans, polonized over centuries. But the origin of other families is a little bit off topic.Ditinili (talk) 18:34, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's more complicated (as you know too), leave this cynicism. --Norden1990 (talk) 20:24, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, maybe some early ancestor of Mr. Kaminski from Wielka Wies came from Bohemia and great great grandfather of Mr. Kowalski from Germany, Mr. Poliusko and Koscuszko had maybe only local ancestors, but it is hilarious to say that they are just Polonized Germans while German speaking part of their family "remained Germans". (end, off topic)Ditinili (talk) 08:16, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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