Talk:Martha Watts/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Mujinga (talk · contribs) 16:20, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi SusunW, I will take on this article to review. I'll make some comments and then ping you when I'm done, if that works for you. I enjoyed working with you on Maria Dulębianka so looking forward to this one. Mujinga (talk) 16:20, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much Mujinga. Truly appreciate your picking up the review and looking forward to being able to improve the article. SusunW (talk) 16:23, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Review

Lead

~~I'll come back to this last~~
Overall the lead feels a bit long but the size follows MoS so I'll say it's OK overall, but maybe the second paragraph can be tightened a bit since it's comparatively the largest. I do think there should be some blue links in the first paragraph. For example: American, missionary, Kentucky (definitely this one), Methodist Church maybe, Sunday school (definitely)

Done SusunW (talk) 15:04, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

and the first woman and became the first woman?

Done SusunW (talk) 15:04, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

State of São Paulo State can be state

Done SusunW (talk) 15:04, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

began by recruiting a French teacher, Marie Rennotte, in 1882 since at the time, most educational materials had been translated into French. French speaking (because she was Belgian)? Also maybe its more accurate to say French was the universal language of education back then (as mentioned below).

Reworded

Done SusunW (talk) 15:04, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Second paragraph masons and abolitionists could be bluelinked (and as below i am wondering what sort of masons were are talking about)

Done SusunW (talk) 15:04, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

She is remembered in Brazil as the pioneer in bringing Methodist education to the country. I don't disagree but I don't feel this sentence really links to a sentence or two in the Legacy section, so that could be added and then I think that would iron out my slight concern that the legacy section needed a little bit more.

Not sure I understand the question. Legacy section says Watts is recognized as the pioneer who brought Methodist education to Brazil and for her role in the development of a modern educational system in the country. The sentence you highlighted and the part pay homage to her role in the development of a modern educational system in the lede both are drawn from this information in the legacy section. I'll come back to it after I have reviewed the rest. SusunW (talk) 15:04, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ah yes you are correct i was only looking at the last paragraph at that point Mujinga (talk) 08:21, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

All good

Early life

Elizabeth Curtis (née Paxley) - that's curious, the sources do give these two names but wouldn't the wife take the name of the husband ie Watts? In any case, it seems the sources are in conflict here, since one says "Elizabeth Curtis from an old Kentucky family" and the other says "Elizabeth Paxley who came from Virginia, to Newcastle Ky." Odd!

This says her name was Elizabeth Curtiss Pixley Watts. As find a grave isn't considered a RS on WP, and I have been unable to find an obituary for either parent, I have no idea how to note it. This, which is a sketch of her brother gives no information on his parents names, but says they were native Kentuckians. His obituary is fairly useless in providing any family information. SusunW (talk) 19:47, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The plot thickens! What a pickle. I'll come back to this, perhaps I'll come across another source as I go through things. Mujinga (talk) 08:52, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oh crap I'll also note findagrave says her dates were (5 Jun 1815–24 Dec 1877), so they are wildly different. Mujinga (talk) 08:55, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These are the mother's dates. I have found nothing to prove or disprove them. SusunW (talk) 16:25, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Her pt page says "13 de fevereiro de 1845 - 10 de janeiro de 1910" so more incongruities! Mujinga (talk) 09:05, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OK having read the whole article now it seems clear her funeral was 10 Jan and her death was 30 Dec as you state. I'm also happy with the birth date, although some sources seem to be saying 1845. On the mother's name, I think she must have become a Watts so then the question is was her maiden name Curtis or Paxley? I guess if the sources are clashing it can be noted, or simply avoided, I'll leave it to you to rephrase the current version.

The 1860 census (last family) says Martha was 12. The 1870 census (start on line 29) says she was 22, so both support the 1848 date. On the names, this family tends to give middle names which are surnames, i.e. Hite, Searcy, Carter, which I am not sure were family names or what. Find a grave says her parents' names were William & Margaret Owens Pixley. Seems logical to me that in the face of the evidence, the mother's name was Elizabeth Curtis/Curtiss Paxley/Pixley. Many searches turn up nada. Boom! Elizabeth Curtiss Pixley p 38.

Done SusunW (talk) 16:25, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done glad we got to the bottom of it Mujinga (talk) 08:11, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Career

Since the Colégio Piracicabano section is quite long, would you consider giving the first paragraph of it a different section, perhaps titled something like 'Moving to Brazil' or 'Becoming a missionary'?

Just called it early career.

Done SusunW (talk) 16:29, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Colégio Piracicabano

State of São Paulo - state doesn't need to be capitalised

Done SusunW (talk) 17:15, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

the church was organized by September 11 - does this mean opened? otherwise i am not sure what it means, i tried to find the Mesquita (2001) Evangelizar e civilizar: cartas de Martha Watts, 1881-1908 that Ramires was drawing on, but wasn't able to.

The Portugese says "organizada", which to my mind is simply recruiting members, possibly creating a charter, and establishing it. I would not say that is the same as opened, as one can do all the organizational stuff long before an official launch. SusunW (talk) 17:15, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done ok happy with that Mujinga (talk) 08:11, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Her mission was to establish a school in Piracicaba in the State of São Paulo,[10] While Koger and his wife were to found a church there, Kennedy and Ransom were to establish a church in Rio de Janeiro - maybe this sentence could be rephrased to show that Watts was setting up a Sunday school to go alongside the church, it took me a while to get that bit

My reading of it is that was not part of her "mission", but something she chose to do. "Martha Watts, esta última enviada com a tarefa exclusiva de organizar uma escola" (page 41) "A respeito da missão em Piracicaba, o objetivo era muito claro. Além da implantação de uma igreja, vieram com a tarefa de estabelecer uma escola..." (p 44) I had separated the two so it would emphasize the difference in her required and voluntary tasks. SusunW (talk) 17:15, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ah i see, thanks for the explanation Mujinga (talk) 08:15, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

founded a Sunday School can be "founded a Sunday school", with the bluelink if not already linked above

Not done as is linked before when it discusses her joining a Sunday school in Louisville. SusunW (talk) 17:15, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ok Mujinga (talk) 08:15, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On the single student thing, which does seem a bit strange, maybe it's good to explain it a bit more and there's more on Ramires page 48, which suggest parents were unready to switch their kids only for the last quarter of the year - Piracicabano funcionou três meses com três professores e uma só aluna, porque Martha Watts insistiu em iniciar as aulas no último trimestre do ano. Sugere que a diretora foi muito apressada, não se preocupou em fazer qualquer consulta aos potenciais alunos e nem se ajustar aos costumes do país. Dessa forma, “os pais não acharam conveniente retirar as suas filhas das escolas onde estavam para matriculá-las em outra por um prazo tão curto”

Done SusunW (talk) 17:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This source gives the single student's name as Maria Escobar, if you think it is worth adding

Done SusunW (talk) 17:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Neither Watts, teacher Mary Newman, nor F.J.C. Schneider, who taught Portuguese, spoke French - I only see something about Watts not speaking French on pages 53 and 55, not the other two people

I reworded it. It is quite clear that unless they obtained a French teacher Watts felt that a lack of a French speaker would jeopardize the school's success and they might have to abandon their goals, (p 55) as well as no French or German courses were taught until Rennotte arrived. (p 57) SusunW (talk) 19:31, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Watts and Rev. Ransom, wrote several letters to the Women's Board asking them to secure an American teacher who spoke French, without success what I see on page 51 is "Spaulding solicitou à Sociedade Missionária Metodista dos EUA o envio de novos professores e especificou a necessidade de se enviar também uma professora 'bem versada em francês, que é uma língua muito popular por aqui e muito ensinada nas escolas'" so that's a bit different

Added cite to p 55 & 56 as well. "necessidade de ter uma mulher dos Estados Unidos preparada para ensinar francês, música e outros ramos de uma boa educação" / "Ao reconhecer a necessidade de ter professores de francês e de música em seu quadro docente, que era exigência da cultura local, ela estava se referindo ao modelo clássico adotado nas escolas femininas brasileiras, voltado para o francês, prendas domésticas e artes de salão".

Done SusunW (talk) 19:31, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On February 23, 1882, Ransom reported to the Board that he had found a "French woman" with teaching degrees who had accepted an offer of employment. Though the school term had already begun with 13 students,[19] Marie Rennotte, a Belgian teacher, did not join the staff until early March.[20] - so here ref19 backs the first sentence and ref20 backs what it currently backs, but i don't see what is backing up the "13 students" bit of the sentence
- just rechecked this because i was getting tired yesterday, but i still didn't see mention of school starting with 13 students

extended cite to page 57 "tem treze alunos"

Done SusunW (talk) 19:31, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

though she avoided attempting to convert pupils - i don't see where da Silva says that on page 13

I removed it. It's been such a long time since it was nominated, that this is taking me forever to review, as I must re-read all of the sources. I think what I meant was she didn't directly try to convert students, but used education as a means to persuade them, but I honestly don't remember and though sources support that interpretation, it isn't stated directly that I can find. SusunW (talk) 20:36, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

women's education could be wikilinked

Done SusunW (talk) 20:36, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Classes were also open to boys, as lawyer Manuel Morais Barros [pt] sent four of his sons there and encouraged others to do so I seem to be getting very deep into my Ramires fact-checking, here the name of the guy is given on pt as Manuel de Moraes Barros (or Manoel de Moraes Barros) and in the Ramires as Manoel de Moraes Barros, so your spelling is a bit different. Further Ramires says his children were Anna Maria, Eliza, Jorge and Leonor so only Jorge and Leonor were boys, I suppose?

Corrected spelling, though there are many versions on the web. The Cambridge History of Latin America (1986, p 768) omits the "de" showing "Manuel Moraes Barros"; the site for the Portuguese Senate uses "Manuel de Moraes e Barros", etc. But for consistancy, just using the pt.wp title. Also corrected the "four sons" to read four children. It's a problem with genderized nouns which default to male if referring to a group, even if it is a mixed group. (Yandex translates to four sons; Google/Bing translate to four children). SusunW (talk) 20:36, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

yes i machine translated everything and was occasionally thrown by Watts or Renotte being referred to as 'he' Mujinga (talk) 08:47, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- ~~Further I've noticed a few times now references (eg de Luca) to the Barros brothers as being influential supporters so maybe that is worth adding as a sentence somewhere.~~ then i came onto that bit :) but i guess you could still mention they are brothers
  - i added they were brothers, feel free to revert Mujinga (talk) 08:47, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nonetheless, by 1883, the enrollment had reached 30 students - i don't see something on page17 backing that up

"Em carta datada em 6 de julho de 1883...apesar de haver desistências o número chegou a trinta" SusunW (talk) 21:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

masons - meaning freemasons? if yes that could be wikilinked

Done SusunW (talk) 21:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Both she and Rennotte were closely involved in the building project to ensure both functionality and hygienic conditions as a basis for a good learning environment. - you could add that they were keen to do this for the start of the new school year, if you want

Done SusunW (talk) 21:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rennotte was also abroad gathering textbooks and class materials in Europe - the ref is a bit confusing, is it saying Rennotte was also in USA? i am looking at this bit: "Entre 1886/7 , viajou para os Estados Unidos com o objetivo de estudar novos métodos de ensino, de onde mandou pelo menos um artigo sobre educação para o jornal A Província de São Paulo de 7/11/1886 , e à França, de onde trouxe material didático para suas aulas de ciências."

Yes, Rennotte was in both places. I omitted her taking additional educational courses in the US, as it seemed a detail more about "her" than one that was needed for Watt's article. If you think it needed, it can be added. SusunW (talk) 21:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ok understood Mujinga (talk) 08:27, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Seizing the opportunity, in 1887 the Literary Inspector of Education, Abílio Vianna - "seizing the opportunity" makes me think there's already some beef, so maybe that could be explained in a few words. Also in the ref it's Vienna not Vianna (although I see Ramires gives Vianna)

The previous paragraph talks about the issues with conservative elements in society and the Catholics. Are you asking me to repeat that information here? (I am sure Vianna is the correct spelling. See Here (2nd column, 3rd obituary from the top) and here (bottom of the 2nd paragraph). SusunW (talk) 21:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

i do find it hard to link the two things, and i was wondering if there was personal beef, because we don't know anything about Vianna (like was he conservative or Jesuit or whatever - but the i didnt see anything about that in the sources either). however i take your point a curious reader could scan back up to the previous paragraph Mujinga (talk) 08:27, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Watts returned - in what year?

Source doesn't say exactly, so just added "after her year at home"..."Depois de um anno de ausência, Miss Watts voltou e reassumiu a responsabilidade do collegio". SusunW (talk) 21:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for checking! Mujinga (talk) 08:27, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Other schools in Brazil

Mesquita 2002, p. 104. could be the citation after the first sentence, not after the word "building" in the second sentence. Further, just from reading the Mesquita, maybe a sentence could be added about the levels of poverty and hardship for women in that tiem in Brazil. Not necessary, just a thought.

Moved the cite, but I don't see anything that describes the social conditions in Petrópolis in Mesquita. SusunW (talk) 00:06, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ok thanks for checking! Mujinga (talk) 08:29, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

a new school since we have heard about normal schools, sunday schools etc I think it would be helpful to say in few words what sort of school this would be and what it would be teaching. Presumably it's Methodist, by the name Colégio Americano does it mean English would be taught and so on.

No idea. The only description of it was that it was a boarding school (I linked) that catered to diplomat and officials' children as it was near Rio, but far enough away to keep their daughters safe from the heat and illness in the capital. SusunW (talk) 00:06, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ok i'll add in boarding feel free to revert Mujinga (talk) 08:48, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

three students and rapidly the enrollment expanded to 50 - i see something about 12 students growing to 150? But that is talking about the Colégio Americano in Porto Alegre, not in Petropolis

These are 2 different schools. Typo on the page #, sorry. Petrópolis starts on 338 "A escola começou com tres alumnos e dentro em pouco tempo a matricula subiu a 50."

Done SusunW (talk) 00:06, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

returning to the United States - maybe a sentence can be added about what she did in her furlough

The only thing it says in the source is that she read letters from other missionaries. Doesn't really seem worth mentioning, but will put it in if you think it is needed. SusunW (talk) 00:06, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

no it's ok then, thanks for checking! Mujinga (talk) 08:29, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

she inaugurated - where? Not sure if this is Belo Horizonte or somewhere else

Yes, but to avoid redundancy, I added "in the capital city of Minas Gerais".

Done SusunW (talk) 00:06, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Death and legacy

Watts fell Ouch, sounds like a bad fall. I think it's useful to say this happened in Kentucky (not Brazil)

Yes, I had the same though, made me cringe. Greenville added.

Done SusunW (talk) 00:48, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

at her brother W. O. Watts' home Both Courier articles say Mrs W. O. Watts so maybe the brother was already passed on

I had the same thought, but can't prove it. The census I gave you above for Watts' parents in 1870 is followed by the family of William O. Watts, wife Mary R. They also appear in 1880 (family starts line 21). I suspect that is this guy, but again, find a grave is not a RS. I searched for an obit and nada. The 1890 census, which might show Mary R. and the children from the earlier census does not exist (the 1890 U.S. censuses were destroyed in a fire), so I have nothing I can use to say his widow. Then there was the whole thing of whether to input the census simply to show her as Mary, wife of Watts' brother ... and I opted not to because it didn't really add much IMO. If you think it is important, I'll be happy to add. SusunW (talk) 00:48, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

no it's ok, thanks for checking! Mujinga (talk) 08:31, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Escola Normal Livre Miss Martha Watts since the other schools are italicised this should be too

Done SusunW (talk) 00:48, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

eventually transformed could add when, ie in 1975

I didn't see the date in the source, but did find one, which as a bonus, allows the input of when they first started offering uni-level classes.

Done SusunW (talk) 00:48, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So is the cultural center part of UNIMEP? This pt page seems to suggest that, might be worth mentioning

The link is dead, but I found it in Wayback. I'm not sure if it is part of the university or not. I'll grant you that it is on the University's web page, but nothing says that it is still linked to them, just that it was the second home of the Colégio Piracicabano. If you think it's important, I'll try to find a link tomorrow, but am running out of steam. SusunW (talk) 01:02, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ok thanks for checking! Mujinga (talk) 08:31, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rua Boa Morte - i don't think this road needs italics

Done SusunW (talk) 01:02, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Since there is such a time jump between the two paragraphs, you could consider making one death section, one legacy. If feel that more could be said about her legacy, but articles can always be expanded, what's said is already good.

Personal preference, I guess, but I don't like splitting the death and legacy sections. Besides, then the last sentence which states her importance to education is split from the stuff she founded and what became of it. SusunW (talk) 01:02, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

yes i remember a similar discussion on the same section at Maria Dulębianka. sure, i can put it down to personal preference then :) Mujinga (talk) 08:31, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pictures

Picture rights are fine, maybe Marie Rennotte can be bluelinked in her picture

Done SusunW (talk) 01:03, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Template

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()

3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()

Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Overall

This was an interesting read and thank you for the sources being so accessible, that makes everything a lot easier. This article seems quite close to GA status and so I'll put it on hold for corrections. Most comments are quite pernickety, but hopefully of use. The only two major issues I would say are sorting out the mother's name and some of the Ramires references being garbled. For clarity, I've been using the pdf I downloaded via the citation to check the page numbers.

Hi @SusunW: so my review is done, back to you for comments. As a sidenote, I notice you have some other reviews running so please don't feel rushed or anything, I'm happy to agree a schedule if necessary. Mujinga (talk) 14:16, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mujinga Thank you so very much for the review. I truly am grateful for your thoroughness. Tough job, as this was written so long ago, I remember none of the source material, so had to read lots to find stuff and context. But, hopefully I have cleared up most of the queries. Let me know what's still outstanding. I'm bushed and need to go feed the family. SusunW (talk) 01:05, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SusunW Cheers for replying so promptly and taking the time to resolve the fairly minor issues, it is certainly a problem that if people wait a long time for GA reviews they will have to spend more time going back into the sources, hopefully the current backlog drive will resolve that a bit. This is now a good article, congratulations and keep up your amazing work! Mujinga (talk) 08:52, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]