Talk:Marshall Defense
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old talk
[edit]I'm not convinced about "White gets a clear advantage with 3.cxd5 Nxd5 4.Nf3! Bf5 5.Qb3." There are only 5 games in Chesslab with this line of play after 1997. White won in 4 and had a draw in the 5th. Crafty version 19.19 rates this as a slight advantage for white with an evaluation of +0.10 after 10 minutes of calculations.
The alternate of 3.cxd5 Nxd5 4.e4?! Nf6 5.Nc3 e5! 6.dxe5 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Ng4! still leads to 8.Nd5 Nxf2+ 9.Ke1 Nxh1 10.Nxc7+ with Crafty version 19.19 indicating a substantial lead of +0.99 for white. Both kings lose their ability to castle. The one game in Chesslab gives a win for white.
It looks to me like 4.e4 is the better move over 4.Nf3. Does anyone have a different analysis?
3...Qxd5
[edit]Seems 3...Qxd5 is a better move, then Nxd5. Idea from centercounter (1.e4 d5 2. exd5 Qd5) with Qxd5, however here in the Marshall Defence the d4 Nf6 is helping Black.
3...Qxd5 4. Nc3 Qa5 5. Nf3 [5. Bd2 Qb6 6. Nf3 Bg4] 5...Bg4 6. Qb3 Nbd7 7. Qxb7!? Rb8 8. Qc6 Bxf3 9. gxf3+/= [9. Qxf3? e5!=][9. exf3? Rb6 with Re6+ -+] ChessCreator (talk) 17:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
"Large advantage" is not the most accurate and objective judgement of the opening. In many lines white has a small edge and is slightly better than in other variations but black is still OK.
- Of course this is unfair since I'm 12 years into the future, but 3...Qxd5 4. Nc3 Qa5 5. Nf3 Bg4? 6. Ne5 is more menacing and Leela is very happy with White's position. Evercat (talk) 11:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
Queen's gambit refused
[edit]Isn't this also known as Queen's Gambit Refused? If so, it should be in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.93.147.242 (talk) 15:17, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
"No longer used by experience players."
[edit]No quarrel that it's dubious, but it does continue to be used by a small number of high level players. Looking at the chess game database on chesstempo.com, the starting position of the Marshall Defense was played in Master vs. Master games more than 200 times, including at least 50 times since the Watson reference cited to make this statement. This includes 14 games between 2400+ vs. 2400+ players since 2007. As such, the reference is dated and was empirically overbroad at the time it was made. I suggest the statement be edited to say that it is rarely used by experience players today. Ftjrwrites (talk) 20:06, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
4.cxd5
[edit]According to Stockfish 14 at depth 33, 4.cxd5 is the strongest move in this position, with an eval of +1.0 vs +0.2 for Nf3, +0.2 for Nc3, and +0.2 for e4. I think that this warrants a removal of the line which claims that 4.Nf3 is the strongest response to the Marshall Defense, and perhaps a recommendation of 4.cxd5 instead. I am new to editing on Wikipedia, so am unsure of the protocol here, but I feel the engine eval is strong enough to change this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by XobTsop (talk • contribs) 00:14, 5 November 2021 (UTC)