Talk:Mark Hyman (doctor)

Testimony, false balance, etc

This is about this. The lead is a summary of the article's body, so it was misplaced. But another problem is WP:GEVAL where one author is used to claim that "some" have criticized the diet but that "some" have also supported it. Moreover, Parsley Health appears to mostly be a paleo diet and alt-med promoting website. It may be possible to attribute some of that author's own statements somewhere in the article, although this isn't what the proposed edits did. That article also doesn't mention Hyman... —PaleoNeonate – 21:24, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

There's at least two issues here. 1) We don't have good access to know what dietitians tend to think. 2) The point being made in the first place is not about the quality of evidence that dietitians use to arrive at their conclusions. Maybe it'd be a good idea to drop the whole part about it being or not being a fad diet and focus on dietary use and problems of the diet. RaoulTheWok (talk) 21:32, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

RaoulTheWok, there are no reliable sources supporting Hyman's pegan diet but we have plenty of registered dietitians from reliable sources criticizing it. We do not need to make up a false balance. Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:08, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Consider rewriting the sequence to reflect the point you're trying to defend, then. RaoulTheWok (talk) 22:11, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

"we have plenty of registered dietitians from reliable sources criticizing it." Quantify that. And tell us why it becomes relevant. Are they speaking from a credible enough place? I'd like to see your reasoning and the sources you use to support it. RaoulTheWok (talk) 22:15, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

To elaborate on where I'm coming from and the impression that I'm getting here. The Pegan diet is by no means a diet I'd go around actively promoting. It may have a number of issues. However it is not a diet I'd tell people to rule out. While diets that frequently spike your blood sugar seem far more dangerous. If you have sources to deter that view (while using a modern understanding of the role of hormones in fat storage/use) then please reference em. If that's not possible then prominently pointing to the pegan diet being a fad diet in the view of dietitians seems a little partial. RaoulTheWok (talk) 22:27, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

There are enough reliable sources on the article right now and none of them support Hyman's fad diet. We are not interested in personal commentary at the end of the day, only what the reliable sources say so most of what you said above is irrelevant. You seem to be ignoring what reliable sourced content says and instead promoting your own opinions, this is not the way Wikipedia works. If you dispute the sources of course you can question them on this talk-page but you have not even done that. You have inserted personal commentary into the article several times and you are doing it again [1]. You seem enthusiastic about this article but you are making bad edits based on original research which can lead to a block. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:13, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

You want me to go over all the sources? I'll get started on highlighting a number of instances where wholly insufficient sources have been used but would be appreciated if you did the rest. :D RaoulTheWok (talk) 00:21, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Also thanks for the heads up. Using the talk page is definitely cleaner. RaoulTheWok (talk) 00:43, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

There are no reliable sources supporting Hyman's pegan diet but we have plenty of registered dietitians from reliable sources criticizing it. This is probably because of selective sourcing and editing. Regardless of the reputation of Hyman, or other views he may hold, many experts actually give nuanced views of the diet, upsides and downsides, not blanket criticism. This nuance is somewhat lacking from the article. For consideration see the following. --Animalparty! (talk) 21:25, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• Carolyn Williams, PHD RD, writes: "I would probably recommend this approach over Paleo or vegan diets. Most of the principles (with a few exceptions) are research-based, align with health recommendations, and are eating approaches that I try to follow." She also notes: "The average person could likely meet their nutrient needs on the Pegan Diet with proper meal planning and food variety. However, it would be really difficult for individuals like athletes that have higher energy, carbohydrate, and protein needs."

• Lori Zanini, a registered dietitian and a certified diabetes educator states: the pegan diet may help you to "reduce inflammation and the many diseases that are linked to it, improving heart health, and lowering the risk of developing many chronic diseases." She also notes "The diet is restrictive in that it eliminates the entire dairy food group, many grains and all sources of added sugars, including processed foods. This can be difficult when deciding what to eat and when participating in social gatherings."
• Cathy Leman, a registered dietitian nutritionist states: "Compared to the standard American diet, eating a pegan diet is certainly an improvement in nutritional quality. Compared to a vegan diet, the inclusion of fish and red meat may be appealing to someone intrigued with a predominantly plant-based diet, yet reluctant to avoid animal products completely. Pegan diet is on par with paleo diet in that they both discourage dairy, grains and legumes and encourage a health-positive, wondrous amount of produce."
• Oncologist and palliative care director Adil Akhtar "says that the pegan diet can be a good, middle-of-the-road option for many people, and it may be helpful for those dealing with a cancer diagnosis or those who want to reduce their risk of developing cancer or its recurrence." He also note the food balance "looks quite close to the Mediterranean diet".

• Ansley Hill, RD, LD, writes: "while it's rich in many nutrients that can promote optimal health, it may be too restrictive for many people."

Thanks for the links. I added the comment from Adil Akhtar. We don't cite healthline on Wikipedia for biomedical claims. There has been many discussions about this in the past on several boards. We can cite Lori Zanini but the comment about dairy is not true and would likely confuse readers. Mark Hyman is a big advocate of grass-fed dairy, he tells people to eat this, and he also promotes sheep milk/yoghurt, we already have a small line about this on the article. So his diet is not anti-dairy and does not eliminate the entire dairy food group. Psychologist Guy (talk) 09:29, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Unreliable Source

Regarding https://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/1015p20.shtml

Source 4 on this publication references an editorial without any studies to support it whatsoever. If the sources lead nowhere then that is a major problem because the methodology and reference groups cannot be investigated. At least on the point of "The Dietary Guidelines for Americans advise making half of all grain intake whole grains, and the Academy recommends whole grains as an excellent source of dietary fiber, which may help reduce risk of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and other health complications.4", this publication probably cannot be used as source.

Similar issue with: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/paleo-and-veganism-have-given-birth-to-peganism-but-is-this-new-diet-any-good-for-you/2019/02/01/fd023a4a-2331-11e9-81fd-b7b05d5bed90_story.html

forgot signature RaoulTheWok (talk) 00:36, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

These two sources are being referenced to make statements about most/all dietitians as well. Their contents do not support claims of that variety. If we want to talk about most dietitans then we probably need to point to studies that allow for making that level of claim. More careful wording would be advised or adding relevant sources. Please refer to this discussion before vandalizing the page further. RaoulTheWok (talk) 08:46, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Correction, it's https://archive.is/n6RO7 and https://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/1015p20.shtml being used to support claims about dietitans in general. Neither of which support that. I'm all for a diversity of views on wikipedia but it's important to not superimpose one's own views onto sources. RaoulTheWok (talk) 08:49, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Economics of the diet

' Aisling Pigott, a dietitian and spokesperson for the British Dietetic Association, has suggested that the pegan diet is too restrictive to maintain and although some of its principles such as eating more plant-based foods and fewer processed foods is recommended for good health "labeling this as a ‘diet’ is unethical and potentially dangerous and difficult to follow." '

There's already sufficient note of the price point of the diet. I'm not sure how it adds to the article to have a dietitian's opinion on the politics and psychology of calling this a "diet" or not. What makes their opinion particularly noteworthy on those points? RaoulTheWok (talk) 00:36, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Science-Based Medicine

[2] you can't really cite special-interest site in support of a "no evidence" claim; they don't even say that

The deletion is OK because the sourced statement is not in the source, but the edit commentary is not. WP:SBM is regarded as reliable. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:10, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Personal History

There is a lot of content about his work and type of medicine being promoted. I came here looking for his personal history. Many of his books and speaking engagement references his personal experiences/history.  For example in this interview -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbzn5iz8Mbo  he claims he lived in Beijing china, but I can't find any references to when this happened or if his personal statement is true.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.231.125.76 (talk) 07:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)