Talk:Marin Catholic High School

Photo

@John from Idegon: Why have you twice removed the photo from this article? Your edit summary gives no insight. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:18, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

A school article should only have either a logo, or if none is available, a photo in the infobox. Not both. I would have put the picture somewhere else in the article for you, but my only web access lately has been my phone, which just won't cut and paste. I have no objection to the photo, just its placement. Happy editing. John from Idegon (talk) 17:16, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I've re-added the photo outside the infobox. In the future, it would be helpful if you used the edit summary or the talk page to leave some indication of why you're removing an image like this. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:32, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Notable Alumni: Years of Graduation

Unsourced and partially WP:OR. Unless you have a reliable secondary source that states "person x graduated from school y in year z", the information you added is unsourced and you cannot use it. the encyclopedic value of grad date is zero, so please don't waste time researching it. unless there is a context for why the year someone graduated is important to understanding the school (in which case it belongs elsewhere in the article where that context is discu[ssed]...
— User:John from Idegon
— Edit summary 01:17, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

[T]he encyclopedic value of grad date is zero, so please don't waste time researching it. unless there is a context for why the year someone graduated is important to understanding the school (in which case it belongs elsewhere in the article where that context is discussed .... John from Idegon (talk) 01:28, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

This reversion edit seems contrary to the common practice in “Notable alumni” sections of Wikipedia high school and university articles, where year of graduation is routinely listed.

The product of educational institutions is alumni. The years of notable alumni graduation are relevant to its history. Or should all such references be deleted from all similar articles? (!) SPN Lifer (talk) 03:57, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Unsourced and partially WP:OR. Unless you have a reliable secondary source that states "person x graduated from school y in year z", the information you added is unsourced and you cannot use it. John from Idegon (talk) 01:28, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

At least two of the linked articles did expressly state the year of high school graduation. Other articles gave data, from which graduation could reasonably and logically be inferred, such as birth date and the subsequent four consecutive years of undergraduate education.

Where alternate inferences could be drawn, I listed two possible years in the disjunctive. If this lacks sufficient particularly, the reversion may be justifiable as to those two alumni

However, the reversion of all seven alumni in their entirety seems excessive. SPN Lifer (talk) 03:58, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

See WP:CALC SPN Lifer (talk) 04:33, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

WP:ALUMNI does suggest listing graduation years, struck, had the wrong guideline but as John points out, they need to be reliably sourced. You cannot assume or calculate a graduation year at any given school based on other information. Someone may have attended the same school for all the years that his or her graduating class would be expected to have attended, but still not have graduated from that school that year. They could have:

1. graduated from that school but not have completed all the graduation requirements in time to graduate with their class (year incorrect)
2. not completed their graduation requirements at that school in time to graduate with their class, and eventually finished their degree elsewhere (year and school incorrect),
3. transferred to a different school part way through the final year and graduated on time from that school (school incorrect), or
4. never completed their graduation requirements at all (year and school incorrect).

In three of these cases the assumption that the person graduated from the original school is incorrect, in three cases the assumption of a particular graduation year is incorrect, and in all four cases the assumption of a graduation from the given school in a particular year is incorrect. I've personally seem all four of these cases. There are likely other scenarios that would result in similarly erroneous assumptions, but it really does not matter how many cases there are. WP:CALC does not apply. People only need to have attended a school to be listed as alumni. Without WP:RS we do not assume that they graduated, much less that they graduated in a given year. Meters (talk) 07:10, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Are you aware of a preferred terminology to indicate high school graduation, such as "Diploma, 2002"?

The language I attempted to use, e.g., "Class of 2002", indicates educational cohort but does not necessarily indicate graduation -- thus eliminating the potential inaccuracies you noted above. The common use of simply a year has a greater connotation of graduation.

With one alumnus I entered "(Class of 1969) (1965-67)" because the entry specifically noted his transfer, and the linked article expressly mentioned his attendance for his first two years. What do you recommend under such circumstances? SPN Lifer (talk) 09:14, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

First off, I did not write the above things that appear on this talk page with what appears to be my signature on this page. SPN Lifer's quoting edit summaries, which is of course fine, but it isn't ok to essentially forge an editor's signature. I've struck them. If you want to quote me, use a quote template, but it is unneeded. Simply list the diff. If you need help with technical issues, enquire at the Teahouse.

Second, Meters is absolutely correct. You cannot draw any conclusions or inferences in your work at Wikipedia. That is absolutely not what an encyclopedia is for. We paraphrase reliable sources and nothing more. An example of a proper application of CALC is the way we handle the NCES data for racial demographics (which, by the way, do not belong in the lede). That is straight math. X/Y=P, where x is the number in the racial subset, y is the total enrollment and p is the percentage of each racial subset to the total enrollment.

Third, the target audience of any article on Wikipedia is the entire English speaking world. Grad dates are of little meaning or import except to the school community. You know no more about the school by knowing famous dude x graduated in year y. It doesn't speak to the subject of the article, which is the school at all. It's just trivia. We use wikilinks to link to associated subjects. If somehow the year they graduated from high school is important to understanding the person, it belongs in their bio. Including grad dates for the one's you can source is not helpful, as it simply encourages others to do what you've done for the ones lacking the info, and that is guess or use personal knowledge. It's value as information pertinent to understanding the school is outweighed by it's potential as a crap magnet.

Last, the trimming on this article has just begun. It's a hot mess, full of unsourced junk, out of guideline content and general promo junk not exactly untypical of a US private school. This too will change. A school article on Wikipedia is not for the school, it's about the school and should include only information useful to those with no knowledge whatsoever about the school. John from Idegon (talk) 14:09, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

One other thing: there is nothing in the ALUMNI guideline that even mentions including grad dates. However, mention of other schools attended is there, so feel free to reinstate the instance of that I removed (with a citation, and keep in mind we never cite another Wikipedia article). John from Idegon (talk) 14:29, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

My apologies. I don't know what I was reading that mentioned including graduation dates or attendance years. As John from Idegon points out, it was not WP:ALUMNI, and I have not been able to find it again. Striking it. Meters (talk) 20:06, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

So if you are done playing around with the format of the talk page, do you have a response, SPN Lifer? If so, reply. If not, quit futzing around and wasting two other editor's time. Both Meters and I have this page followed so we can be aware of any responses. Having to come see what you are playing with is a waste of time. John from Idegon (talk) 00:50, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

The inclusion of class years is pervasive on school and university pages throughout Wikipedia, for reasons such as those already proffered in my original reply.  No need to repeat myself.  Persons with a strong interest in this issue might consider debating and resolving it on an appropriate Talk Page, such as WP:ALUMNI or elsewhere, to determine whether mention of class years should be prohibited, discouraged, optional, suggested, or encouraged.  Then the rest of us can contribute accordingly pursuant to the guideline or policy.

Thank you for alerting me to the proper quotation format.  SPN Lifer (talk) 02:17, 3 July 2018 (UTC) It was my first Wikipedia quote. SPN Lifer (talk) 02:29, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

WP:OSE. John from Idegon (talk) 02:44, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Notable Alumni - source material

The instruction that only those alumni who have a discreet WIKIPEDIA biographical page devoted solely to them is extraordinarily limiting. Unless somewhere in such a biographical WIKI there is a mention of the high school that person attended, the WIKI entry would be useless. Also, since most biographical WIKIs do not mention high schools, that further limits finding potential distinguished/notable alumni. That is likely the reason that so few are listed even though there are many, many notable MCHS graduates. I would submit that Judge Ray Giordano '63, having honorably served on the judicial bench in Marin County for decades, is a "notable alumnus" - just to name one. Of course, then there is the question of how the word "notable" is defined for the purposes of this WIKI page.

Many of the format critical the comments made above have merit and should be taken into account. I further strongly urge that the oversight editors find and insert the MCHS graduation years for the notable alumni previously listed.

I have just inserted myself as a notable alumnus - including my MCHS graduation year. My view was that receiving the U.S. Navy's highest civilian recognition award after a 48+ year career and being the author of two authoritative and widely acclaimed publications qualified me as a notable MCHS alumnus. When graduating from Marin Catholic in 1963, I was third in my class and a Merit Scholar.Moryak (talk) 22:06, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

It's a really bad idea for editors to attempt to insert themselves into lists of notables. As for your entry in this article, as you are already aware, I removed it as having no article to show notability. Meters (talk) 22:13, 21 November 2022 (UTC)