Talk:Marcus Aurelius/Archive 1

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RE: Belief in afterlife / indifference to brutalities

What is "rational virtue"? The article implies he was an atheist or had no religion. He reverenced & served the gods in public(part of the duties of being an emperor) and in private (search "gods" across the Meditations); but, he was not worried about an afterlife. He believed his soul or rational essense would be re-absorbed in cosmic fire and re-used(to make a totally different life or essense).

The most important think was to live well or "according to nature". He believing nature to be designed by the gods or a providence with the best(not necessarily our personal preferences) in mind.

EXAMPLES:

Book I: ...To the gods I am indebted...I am thankful to the gods...I thank the gods

Book IV:...Thou hast existed as a part. Thou shalt disappear in that which produced thee; but rather thou shalt be received back into its seminal principle by transmutation.

...If souls continue to exist, how does the air contain them from eternity? ...souls which are removed into the air after subsisting for some time are transmuted and diffused, and assume a fiery nature by being received into the seminal intelligence of the universe, and in this way make room for the fresh souls which come to dwell there. And this is the answer which a man might give on the hypothesis of souls continuing to exist...

I don't think "indifference" to brutalities of life is correct assessment. I think "equanimity" might be a better: He made a difference in the life of the empire and in his personal relationships -- but did not wish circumstance to dictate his feelings or response.

MikeTBee(mikebee_work@yahoo.com) Mikebee home (talk) 14:20, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Someone needs to clear up the "following emperor" confusion for Marcus and Lucius Verus. According to the wiki, they followed each other in an endless cycle. ;) --Dante Alighieri 22:01 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

Does anyone know wether Meditations is the same book as the Norwegian Til meg selv (English: To myself)? --Sigg3.net

Yes, it is. Andres

Thanks! Sigg3.net 12:18 3 Jul 20 "If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself but to your own estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment."

"Live not as though there were a thousand years ahead of you. Fate is at your elbow; make yourself good while life and power are still yours."

Stan 19:34, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)03 (UTC)

Quotes moved here from wrong emperor, to decide whether to go here or in Wikiquote:

"Everything—a horse, a vine—is created for some duty...For what task, then, were you yourself created?"

"A man's true delight is to do the things he was made for."

"How much more grievous are the consequences of anger than the causes of it."

---

Why is Byzantine Emperors listed as a 'See also'? -- Ds13 21:09, 2004 Apr 12 (UTC)

Well they were the continuation of the Roman emperors, but it is a little early for that I suppose. You could just remove it if you want. Adam Bishop 21:14, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

dueling pictures

Actually, I thought the first picture was better - better angle, better color. Stan 20:47, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Not to worry - we have room for both. :-) I'm a bit uneasy about the lack of attribution though ("public domain assumed"?). -- ChrisO 23:31, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Furthermore, didn't Marcus Aurelius rule from 161-180? It seem rather unlikely that he could possibly have ruled from 96-180AD, seeing as that's much longer than he probably lived.-Paul

Reverted edit (Feb. 25, 138 rather than 139)

I don't know where this date comes from, neither the Feb. 25 nor the 138/139. But: the sources say Marcus was 18, which he could not have been on Feb. 25, 138 or 139. Pending proof of this date, then, since neither date appears to be possible, there doesn't seem to be any reason to make the change, so I've tentatively reverted it. — Bill 00:39, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

You Forgot To Include He wrote In Greek Not Latin

Perseus Project the "Memoirs of Marrcus Aurileus" written in Greek.

You will need to include that because that for the non militants it is a more significant contribution. He writes what he learned from the various peoples he met along his travels and gives an important insight to the man.

Trajan's Column

Isn't that a picture of Trajan's column rather than that of Marcus Aurelius?

Nope, they got it right; it's the Column of Marcus Aurelius, on its square surrounded by buildings. Trajan's Column stands in an awkward site, between two churches, a staircase, what amounts to a highway (the Via dei Fori Imperiali), and the ruins of the Ulpian Basilica. Bill 8 July 2005 22:28 (UTC)

I see now that you are right. The column does look similar but the base is quite different - that of Trajan's column being much decorated. Gaius Cornelius 8 July 2005 22:38 (UTC)

Emperors names and confusing latin...

I'm a fond collector of quotes and as such, Marcus Aurelius shows up in my notebooks many times. Looking back though, I see that I've quoted several sources as naming him "Marcus Aelius Aurelius" while the main page here in Wiki names him "Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Augustus", formerly "Marcus Annius Catilius Severus" at birth and "Marcus Annius Verus" at marriage. From what I gather from the Wiki page, Aelius was one..if not two other people? Was the source I quoted these sayings from in error in puting "Aelius" in the middle of Marcus' name? Or was this simply yet another variant of his more common name? I cant say I know much about how latin names in ancient Rome were made up or changed.... Thanks all .. Sidian Marius 00:06, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

This is bothering me: "Aurelius married another monkey named Faustina the Younger in 145. During their thirty-year marriage Faustina bore thirteen cute little monkeys, most notably, his monkey Commodus who would become Emperor and daughter Lucilla who was wed to Lucius Verus to solidify his alliance with Marcus Aurelius" Monkeys? thirteen cute little monkeys? There is also mention of a Chinese horse. Can someone rectify these errors? -Liz G

Sources

I wonder if the sources in this article could be improved? I noticed the phrase "he wanted no child left behind" and it seems like a bit of a projection of modern policies into aincient history. Could someone please cite source which would cover this? Mozzerati 18:37, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I took out the spurious mention of marcus persecuting Christians, which is only pure libel. There is no evidence he ever did such things, as the Roman Emperors page at the bottom points out. In fact, as the page at the bottom shows, ("christians-to-the-lions")Tertullian even called him a friend of the church. They were, however, associated with the unbridled fanaticism of Judaism and other eastern cults, which is why he includes one derogatory reference to them in his meditations.

"Severe persecution" of the early Christians... "Thousands(of Christians during the reign of Marcus Aurelius,) were beheaded or thown [sic] to wild beasts." seems wildly out of kilter with what he wrote down in the _Meditations_. Could there please be more solid proof of this? His reference to Christians in the Meditations via the George Long translation: "What a soul that is which is ready, if at any moment it must be separated from the body, and ready either to be extinguished or dispersed or continue to exist; but so that this readiness comes from a man's own judgement, not from mere obstinacy, as with the Christians, but considerately and with dignity and in a way to persuade another, without tragic show." He wouldn't it seems have martyred them out of anger, but perhaps rather for stubbornly refusing to comply with something seen as an obvious basic requirement for getting along with society of the time. In any case, could someone please provide more solid proof of unusually large killings of Christians happening under Marcus Aurelius’ watch? It seems so utterly detached from the principles he laid out in the Meditations. Multiple sound references for proof would be helpful that way.

Treasury registration of births

In fact it's not only the silliness (and evangelical Christian POV) about God's family, and the cutesy anti-Bush POV about children left behind — but the whole paragraph that is bad. It's not true: as in any well-regulated state, births were registered; with the treasury department (and the Temple of Juno Lucina, etc.), all the way back to Republican times. Bill 01:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Marcus Aurelius Bust Confusion

The photo of the bust at right appears at first glance to be labeled "Antoninus Pius" until one realizes this is not really the case, that "Antoninus Pius" refers to the lineage in the chart at right.

Is there a way to label the bust in the photo so that it reads Marcus Aurelius under it (when viewed in the context of the article)? This would avoid any possible confusion.

--Skb8721 15:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Poor spelling and Neologisms

Perhaps someone can clean up the poor spelling, there are also some funny neologisms such as 'In 177 a group of Christian was martyrized at Lyon', 'fear of rivialities' etc which will call for a restructured syntax

Persecution of Christians

The accussation that Marcus persecuted Christians needs more detail and sources. Such accussations are common but often ill-founded.MarcusAnniusCatiliusSeverus 23:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I only read one book, that i used for this article. I am in favour of collectively organized research to support articles on Wikipedia. I got one footnote, if you have aditional footnotes and literature where that questions the persecution of christians during the administration of Marcus Aurelius, then we can have a debate about this issue.--Daanschr 14:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

What does "As an emperor, he persecuted Christians and went frequently on military campaigns. He justified his deeds by pointing at the insignificance of worldly affairs." have to do with any of his writings?

As an example for his indifference towards the brutalities of life. Allthough, the sentence about rational virtue needs to be included again.--Daanschr 17:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The article seems to contradict itself -- earlier on it says "Under Marcus' reign, the status of Christians remained the same since the time of Trajan. They were legally punishable, though in fact rarely persecuted. In 177 a group of Christians were executed at Lyon, for example, but the act is mainly attributable to the initiative of the local governor." But later it makes the comment that "he persecuted Christians and went frequently on military campaigns. He justified his deeds by pointing at the insignificance of worldly affairs." Could someone knowledgible about the relevant history reconcile these, or at least give some context for the disagreement? Inhumandecency (talk) 01:39, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The translation of the "Meditations" by Gregory Hays (ISBN: 978-0812968255) says in the introduction to the text (also by Hays) that most modern scholars believe that Marcus Aurelius was only marginally aware of and interested in the new Christian religion. Furthermore, these scholars argue that Marcus did not fundamentally change the policy regarding their persecution that had been in place since the reign of the emperor Trajan (the policy that was implemented under Trajan was that Christians should not be actively sought out and hunted down, but that they were to be tried and executed if they were openly practising their religion in public). Finally, most scholars agree that the one single mention of Christians in the "Meditations" is most likely due to a later corruption of the original text - that this reference to Christianity was neither written nor even implied by Marcus in his original manuscript, but was added in after his death by an unknown editor or copyist.

I am not sure how unanimous the consensus is on this viewpoint among academics as of right now, so I cannot comment on Hays' claim directly, but I did want to bring it up for this discussion. This may still be the majority position held by scholars, but it might also have changed or been revised in recent years. Someone who is more knowledgeable about the current academic stance on the connection between Marcus Aurelius and the persecution of Christians should weigh in on this debate. IonNerd (talk) 06:27, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Mediations

The section on the Meditations makes no reference to the Stoic philosophy of Marcus Aurelius.MarcusAnniusCatiliusSeverus 23:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

5 Good Emperors

Is the succession box for this rather superfluous and simply unnecessarily taking up space since they followed the imperial succession? The article already says that M.A. was the last of the five. Cripipper 23:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Where was he born?

Can anyone put the specific city in which was he born? I only know the roman province was hispania.

The page on "Roman naming conventions" gives a sample analysis of a full Roman name, which is "Marcus Aurelius Marci f. Quinti n. tribu Galeria Antoninus Pius, domo Caesaraugusta". I actually came to this page because I wanted to know if the naming convention gave the city as the birth city or just the city where they lived most of their lives. Your assertion that he was born in Hispania seems to confirm that it is the birth city - Caesaraugusta is described on the naming conventions page as being "ancient Saragossa or Zaragoza in Hispania". Branfish 16:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Wondering

I was wondering if someone could direct towards the evidence which suggests that Marcus Aurelius is "extremely homosexual"(as per the introduction to the Wiki article). I myself have not seen any such suggestions prior to viewing the Wiki article, and my web search yielded no results. I did, however, find mention of Marcus Aurelius Antoninus(also known as Elagabalus) 204-222, who is well known for his debauchery as well as his homosexual tendancies. Any help shedding light on this subject would be much appreciated. Thanks—Preceding unsigned comment added by MarcusAntoninus (talk • contribs) 16:02, 18 January 2007

That appears to have been vandalism. It has since been removed.Geuiwogbil 02:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Was Marcus Aurelius Really One of the Aurelii?

I've traced out several generations of the emperor Marcus Aurelius' ancestors, and I don't see any evidence for calling him one of the Aurelii. His name at birth was Marcus Annius Caitilius Serverus, and at marriage he took the name Marcus Annius Verus--i.e., nothing Aurelian in either of them. His father was named Marcus Annius Verus, as was his paternal grandfather, and his paternal great-grandfather before that. His mother Domitia was of the Lucillus family.

It looks to me like he included the name Aurelius in the name he took on as emperor purely as a way of honoring his predecessor, adoptive father, and uncle *by marriage only,* Antoninus Pius, who was clearly an Aurelian. (Antoninus Pius was born Titus Aurelius Fulvus, as were his father and grandfather before him.)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aurelii" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Unauthvu (talk • contribs) 22:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC).

please help

some years ago, i received a gift box of herbal teas that included a quote from marcus aurelius: "the first rule is to start with an untroubled spirit..." i cut the quote from the box and had it posted for many years until i relocated and the quote was lost in transition. can you please give me the complete quote, or tell me where i may find it? 216.186.133.209 14:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)mbblanchard

The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are. -Marcus Aurelius --- fdewaele, 10 April 2007, 15:07.

Incorrect latin

"honestiores" does not mean 'more honest' - it is a common and amateur mistake. It actually means 'more honorable/distinguished'. Even if it did mean something like 'honest', it would be anachronistic to assume that the legal system was based on integrity and not the class system. Ste175 12:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Trivia Flag

This article is flagged as containing a "Trivia" section. It doesn't. Am removing the flag, as it seems to be out of date. Branfish 16:00, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The flag was appropriate in the "modern culture" section because the information was merely a list of Marcus Aurelius references in modern literature. Only works that deal with Marcus Aurelius in a substantial way should be included. I've fixed this. --Steerpike 09:26, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

External Link

Hey, whoever his reacting without actually checking out the link I posted, these are lectures by this guy:

• Michael Sugrue Page

Michael Sugrue is clearly an authority on this topic and thus the blog rule you listed is not appropriate to this link. Actually watch the lectures and stop shooting from the hip!

I've left a message for you on my talk page, but I am repeating it here:

I understand your desire to help and I do not doubt your good intentions. The policy, however, is very clear:

You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked. If the link is to a relevant and informative site that should otherwise be included, please consider mentioning it on the talk page and let neutral and independent Wikipedia editors decide whether to add it.

If you would care to do what WP:EL advises you to do - ie open a discussion on the article's talk page and obtain a consensus that supports you - that's fine. The point of the policy on external links is to prevent articles turning into lists of links to other sites. Somewhere in obtaining that consensus you will therefore need to explain either

a) why you think the article will be acceptable when dozens of other people, all with the best of intentions, also add links to their sites

or

b) why you think your site is a special case and should be included when the others are not.

Regards --Stephen Burnett 23:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, I see your point. SE

Discussion Regarding Marcus Aurelius Blog Page Consensus Request

Dear Wikipedians of this very fine article,

I would like to request a consensus regarding the inclusion of a link to a blog page that I own. I do not intend to post articles on the blog, or to discuss Marcus Aurelius on the blog, it is in no way there for my self aggrandisment and can be deleted if it ever appears to be such. There are 5 lectures by Professor Michael Sugrue that I believe add a great deal of content to the page that would not otherwise be there. The content is salient, relevant, academic in nature and delivered by a subject matter expert. Here is the link I would like to include.

Thank You! Sandwich Eater

Sorry, my computer is too old, so i am not able to listen to the videos. Wikipedia is a bit of an ad hoc organization. You are already a Wikipedian, for entering a single line on this talk page. Just enter what you want to enter. Perhaps there are people winnig to debate about the contents. Most edits are placed without any debate however. All debate that has occured is on this talk page.--Daanschr 17:05, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Continuous deletion and adaption by anonymous users of the same text

I am ready for a debate on the issue.

"Despite these thoughts on life and death, Marcus Aurelius was an advocate of rational virtue. According to Jonathan Dollimore, Marcus Aurelius had a kind of indifference towards the brutalities in life. As an emperor, he persecuted Christians and went frequently on military campaigns. He justified his deeds by pointing at the insignificance of worldly affairs."

The word despite is the most affected by deletions in the last year. Some kind of slow edit war. I took over the analysis of Jonathan Dollimore. It is apparent that Dollimore expresses an opinion. Stil it is an interesting one. Why does Marcus Aurelius believe in rational virtue, if he believes that we are only alive in order to die? What is the use of running an empire, fighting wars and persecuting christians if everything will dissappear and everything in life is useless?

Hopefully the anonymous deleters will be courageous enough to get a user account and start a debate.--Daanschr 17:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I count five times of deletions by anonymous users and reversions by me. All aimed at the word despite and sometimes also other parts of the text.--Daanschr 17:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Is it worth giving this page temporary protection?

It is getting vandalized on a weekly basis. --Nio-guardian (talk) 10:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC) this man is one of the main characters in the major motion picture Gladiator

Not sure where to post this, but this seemed the most appropriate. The family tree has been vandalised (3rd row from top). Kindest regards. 86.15.88.125 (talk) 12:44, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

He seems horribly depressed

His writings to me don't seem that great, everything is a waste of time basically and he doesn't have to worry about the people he's killed on campaigns because nothing matters. That's the summation of his teachings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.208.242.8 (talk) 12:23, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

If that's what you got from them, you got what you deserved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.230.108.126 (talk) 03:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

MA isn't saying everything's a waste of time, you might get that impression if you only read a few select statements by him but if you read all of the Meditations I'd don't think you'd come away with such a simplistic impression. I've seen your reaction in other people too, but typically they've only scratched the surface. Kenneth Kloby (talk) 17:34, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Of course, if we accuse Marcus Aurelius of believing that "nothing matters", then we might level that same accusation at other religious and philosophical systems, such as Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc. One might argue that Christians and Muslims would also believe that "nothing matters" because everything is under the complete control of an external, omnipotent God, which prevents human beings from being able to change anything in their lives by their own efforts. Or, one might equally argue that Buddhists would also believe that "nothing matters" because the reality that human beings perceive and interact with is nothing more than an illusion that must be transcended and escaped from through enlightenment. However, any true Christian, Muslim, or Buddhist would quickly tell you that such statements are absurd exaggerations founded on faulty interpretations of certain passages that are taken out of the larger historical and philosophical context of the particular religion. Similarly, with Marcus Aurelius and Stoicism.

The central ethical foundation of Stoicism is that there are some actions or events in nature that are under the control of human beings and others that are simply not, and that only reason can reveal the difference between the two and guide the mind into making the right choices so that one focuses completely on the things that can be controlled by human beings while remaining perfectly unaffected by those that cannot be controlled. The modern "serenity prayer" (believed to have been first written down in the twentieth century by the Protestant theologian Reinhold Niebuhr) is, strangely enough, almost perfectly equivalent with ancient Stoic philosophy: "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." IonNerd (talk) 05:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Recent expansion by Geuiwogbil

User:Geuiwogbil, you have done an excellent job expanding this article! And it is very well-cited. Great job! I'd like to see all the Roman emperor articles become featured; I've already done my part by rewriting and nominating Augustus for featured status. You have definitely outshined me though by raising Diocletian and Maximian to featured status. Keep up the good work, sir!--Pericles of Athens^Talk 13:14, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Geuiwogbil (Talk) 15:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

But, while we're in the habit of giving each other compliments, I must say that I am deeply impressed by your series on the dynasties of China. I doubt I would ever be able to complete an article like that; I'd always be lost in the details. Good show! Geuiwogbil (Talk) 16:43, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

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