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Church of the Little Flower (Coral Gables, Florida)

This is an unorthodox request. I thought "DKY the Little Flower is the only church in the United States to have two Presidential candidates in it's congregation?" would look great at AFD, so I expanded the article. It's solid. I usually edit on content, and although I did so once or twice, I don't usually put articles I create up for AFD. However, if someone here wants to review this and nominate it at AFD, click Talk:Church of the Little Flower (Coral Gables, Florida).E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:29, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Image

User:Anythingyouwant changed his official Senate portrait to one from 2015. While it may be more recent the 2015 portrait captures him at a bad angle, and he really hasn't changed much since the 2011 Senate portrait was taken. MB298 (talk) 00:51, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

I definitely think the other portrait image is better. It's more recent, the resolution is better, and it's more flattering.Eeyoresdream (talk) 01:25, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Feel free to change back, though I think the 2015 one is better (the German Wikipedia was using it at the top before the English Wikipedia[1]).Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:02, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
The 2011 (official) portrait is much better quality and higher resolution (2400x3040) than the 1215x1717 portrait from 2015, in which only the microphone is actually in focus. That said, I don't think there is much difference in how either image represents the subject at thumbnail size.- MrX 02:36, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
I also prefer the more recent image.CFredkin (talk) 17:45, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

As best I can tell from this discussion, the more recent image is preferred by myself, Eeyoresdream, and CFredkin; MB298 prefers the older image, and MrX thinks there's not much difference. So, I will put back the recent image, which as I said is already used at the German Wikipedia.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:31, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

This image is inferior by every measure. Its composition, clarity, and resolution. The Senator is not looking at the camera, it is not head-on, it is shot from below. The portrait image is the precise thing we look for. Being recent serves no purpose in this case, as he has not visibly aged since the photograph being taken in 2011. I see no objective rationale for removing a high-quality, contemporary, and official U.S. Senate portrait.   Spartan7W §   20:30, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
Also you can't do math. Eeyoresdream's input doesn't make sense, Mr. X prefers official, MB298 prefers official. That is no consensus of any kind, especially adding my reasoning.   Spartan7W §   20:32, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
I think he looks much younger in the old portrait. He's aged more than 10% (according to my inferior math skills). Any difference in quality between the images is not obvious in a thumbnail. Eeyoresdream said that he prefers the image that is "more recent, the resolution is better, and it's more flattering." And Mr. X said, "I don't think there is much difference in how either image represents the subject at thumbnail size". So you misinterpret their opinions, not to mention excluding CFredkin, SirLagsalott, and myself from your tally.Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:38, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

You must have a very compelling image and rationale to make this change. He is a sitting United States Senator and with all sitting U.S. Senators, his official portrait should be used. Why? Its official. Its free-use. It is of exceptional quality, clarity, composition. In short, the U.S. Senate provides us an image which includes every feature which we would ever hope to have in an infobox portrait image. He has not aged so considerably that his image demands changing. Hillary Clinton's image was much older, and she has changed her appearance much more over that period than Rubio. In addition, she is not in office. The proposed image is inferior in every respect, aside from its 'being more recent'. Its angle, color, composition, clarity, are all worse. It is looking upward at him, he isn't looking at the camera. This is in no way an equal substitute, especially when the only complaint is minor aging.   Spartan7W §   20:58, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, I don't see any policy or guideline that favors an old official portrait to a new picture. There is, however, an essay at WP:Portrait that says, "Avoid using images just because other sites use them."Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:18, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
I don't see anything that says we have to update regardless of quality. You seem to have completely ignored the point I made about the QUALITY of the image. This new image is of inferior quality, and the official portrait is of excellent encylopedoc quality.   Spartan7W §   22:21, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
I did not make my revert because I agree or disagree, only because edit warring is not acceptable. I was here for another question, which I posted on the talk page, I got a great answer from a thoughtful editor and stated that my request should be considered closed and best of all, no edits to the actual article were made.... That is how it is supposed to work. The people in the thread seem to be reasonable, work it out and not via "who can mash the revert button the most". Lipsquid (talk) 03:22, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
Any image will look crummy if we enlarge it enough. At thumbnail size, these two images both have good resolution.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:26, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
So, User:Lipsquid, you reverted to show others that reverting is not a good thing? That doesn't seem too clever to me. Remember what happened the last time you went down this road? Don't say you weren't warned! --John (talk) 16:54, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
John I really don't care about the picture. I didn't vote and I agree they should be consistent. Don't be sad because your change was reverted on the Metrojet article. Lipsquid (talk) 17:05, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Discussion at Biographies of Living Persons Noticeboard

FYI, I've started a discussion here.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:00, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Marco Rubio's cousin Moises Denis is a state legislator in Nevada

This info fits into the BLP of Mo Denis, but I don't think it fits well here. If cousin X committed murder, or cousin Y played a part in a movie, that's swell but it's kind of trivial. If two cousins both have BLPs at Wikipedia, then the relationship is more appropriate in the BLP of the less notable cousin.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:11, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I believe that it is relevant, especially as his cousin is also a politician. It shows that the family is also politically active in Nevada. Besides, it is just one short sentence.Zigzig20s (talk) 03:14, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
I believe this edit should be reverted. The redacted sentence says, "One of his cousins, Mo Denis, is a Democratic member of the Nevada Senate.", using this reference from the BBC, with a direct quote ("Michelle's older brother, Moises Denis, didn't attend the Sunday night rally and, as a Democratic politician representing Las Vegas in the Nevada Senate, is on the opposite side of the political divide from his relative.").Zigzig20s (talk) 03:17, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
We don't even describe Marco Rubio's sibling's occupations, much less his cousins'. But maybe we would have to discuss the siblings' occupations if we describe those of his cousins. And how many cousins does he have? I don't see why we should go into this depth about only one of them. Do you think we should clutter up the Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump articles with the fact that they are distant cousins?[2]Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:20, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Rubio's cousin is a politician. It's completely relevant and should not be redacted. Even Steve Wynn mentioned Rubio's Nevada family in a recent interview. And they are not distant cousins--they "lived right by each other" (see the BBC article) and grew up together.Zigzig20s (talk) 03:23, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
It's a coincidence. If he has a cousin who is a notable neurosurgeon, or a notable murderer, I don't see how that would be less relevant or more relevant.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:32, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
He's running for POTUS and the cousin he grew up next door to is also a politician. The family is politically active not only in Florida, but also in Nevada. Perfectly due to add a short sentence about it!Zigzig20s (talk) 03:53, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Let's see if anyone else has an opinion about it. I don't think a BLP like this needs to get into the occupations and activities of cousins.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:01, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Please bear in mind that they grew up together (they were neighbours when he was living in Las Vegas). I don't think it's trivial. I would understand if there was a long paragraph about it, but I think there should be a short sentence.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:21, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

User:Drmies: I agree with you that a short sentence should be added. Can we please move forward with this?Zigzig20s (talk) 15:06, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Rubio's grandfather

  • When it comes to family history, I see that we've already "pruned" the relevant, well-documented fact that Rubio's grandfather immigrated to the US illegally and evaded a judge's deportation order to remain in the country. So hey, we might as well "prune" this as well. MastCell Talk 16:58, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Do you have a diff? I don't recall that prune.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:28, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
@ MastCell The fact that Rubio's maternal grandfather's SECOND migration to the US (after, at about 60, he had returned to Castro's Cuba for a couple years) was once judged to be illegal, would be more relevant had it ever effected Rubio's mother's legal status in any way. Since it never did, the relevance is fairly marginal. Motsebboh (talk) 20:41, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Given the central role that immigration policy has played in Rubio's career, I don't think even you believe that his grandfather's illegal status is truly irrelevant here. More to the point, this topic has been covered extensively in reliable sources and formed a central part of the definitive published biography of Rubio, so its complete exclusion from this article violates our fundamental content policies, including WP:NPOV. That said, given the sorts of people active here (and on candidate articles during election years more generally), I know better than to expect a serious, source- and policy-based discussion. MastCell Talk 20:49, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
It would be helpful, Mastcell, if you would provide a diff of the alleged deletion of the grandfather information, so that we could pick up that discussion where it allegedly left off (as I already requested above). When you speak disparagingly and condescendingly about the "sorts of people active here", you're certainly not elevating the conversation. I recall people trying to edit the Mitt Romney article to include as much as possible about the polygamy of his ancestors in order to make some point or another, and describing the immigration details of Rubio's ancestors would seem to follow that pattern. You apparently think those details are important vis a vis Rubio's immigration stances, as if Wikipedia has a policy favoring corruption of blood. While discussing the top image, I deliberately omitted that Rubio's opponents often say he looks like a boy, because that's about as relevant to the choice of top image as his immigration policies are to his grandfather.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:05, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
@MastCellAs I said, the relevance of his grandfather's short-lived illegal status is "fairly marginal". I wasn't around for any earlier discussions that may have taken place. A mention in the proper factual context would probably be okay. If his grandfather's late-middle-aged escapade - one that in no way effected the status of his mother who was already living in the US legally - really formed " a central part" of the "definitive" biography of Rubio then a redefining bio is in order. Motsebboh (talk) 21:25, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
  • @Anythingyouwant: You removed the material about Rubio's grandfather, along with the supporting reliable sources, here (before your removal, the material had been in the article for approximately 2 years, and had been vetted as appropriate at the BLP noticeboard). Most of the remainder of your comment seems off-topic, to say the least. I'll re-add the material along with supporting sources; given its coverage in such sources, it is a gross violation of our basic content policies, including WP:NPOV, to completely exclude it. I don't think it warrants a huge amount of coverage, either, but 2-3 sentences seems reasonably reflective of existing reliable sources, while we await a new published biography that will be more congenial to Motsebboh. MastCell Talk 00:58, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the diff. I stand by the removal, because it's pure guilt by association, about which the BLP policy says "Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association". I'm confident that you also would have sought to maximize discussion of the polygamy involving Romney's great-grandparents, to make some point about Romney's stance on marriage. I guess yellow journalism has a home at Wikipedia.Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:10, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
That's an odd interpretation of guilt by association. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:31, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
People in China are held responsible for the actions of their relatives all the time.[3]Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:38, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
And if Rubio was Chinese that would *almost* be relevant. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:18, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
If this grandfather material is being included, as MastCell says, because of Rubio's immigration policy, why keep that a secret from the reader? Why not say how reliable sources link the grandfather information to the immigration policy? To me, this appears a cheap shot, pretending Rubio is somehow responsible for what his grandfather did, or implying Rubio's policy is hypocritical because of stuff that happened in his family before Rubio was born. If we want a snide BLP that relies upon guilt by association then I would approve inclusion of this material. Guilt by association can involve activity that is not really wrongdoing, and this Chinese example illustrates that (unless you think winning the Nobel Peace Prize is a horrible thing). I get weary of efforts to introduce editorial political slant into Wikipedia; that can be done just as easily by selecting bits and pieces of reliably-sourced biographical material as by making stuff up.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:15, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Let's be clear: the material is being included because it's covered by multiple independent, reliable sources as a relevant piece of biographical context. That's our standard, and always has been. Most of the reliable sources do link his story to Rubio's immigration policy (e.g. New Yorker, TIME), but given your dogged resistance to even mentioning the subject at all, I'm realistic about the likelihood of us actually following the sources down that road. MastCell Talk 19:53, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Re: this removal, fine, whatever. I added the material to assuage Anythingyouwant's concern about "guilt by association", although I don't think his concern is particularly well-founded. The addition was intended to convey that Rubio was unaware of his grandfather's immigration history until the 2012 biography revealed it, and also to give Rubio the final say in his own words on the subject. If you'd rather remove it then I guess I don't feel strongly enough to argue. MastCell Talk 21:57, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
So, couldn't the same standard be used to justify the inclusion of something regarding the following at Hillary Clinton:

In addition to Tony Rodham, Hillary Clinton's brother Hugh Rodham and Bill Clinton's half-brother Roger Clinton found themselves in the spotlight in the furor over last-minute pardons. Hugh Rodham, an attorney, took $400,000 to pursue clemency for two individuals who received it. He later returned the money. Roger Clinton denied taking money but acknowledged he urged pardons for five of his friends. They did not receive them. The former president and first lady said they were unaware Hugh Rodham had been paid to advocate in the cases. "I'm just extremely disappointed in this terrible misjudgment that he made," then-Sen. Clinton said in 2001.[1]

CFredkin (talk) 23:21, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Gerstein, Josh (January 28, 2016). "Clinton pardon records offer fuel for Hillary's foes". Politico.
Here's an article in the NYT in which Rubio says that it's a "valid point."
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/06/us/politics/marco-rubio-immigration-grandfather.html
Marco Rubio’s Policies Might Shut the Door to People Like His Grandfather
By JEREMY W. PETERS
New York Times
MARCH 5, 2016
In an interview, Mr. Rubio acknowledged that some would see a conflict between the stricter immigration and refugee policies he supports and his grandfather’s experience. Immigration records also show that other members of Mr. Rubio’s family — two aunts and an uncle — were admitted as refugees.
But Mr. Rubio said the difference between then and now is how much more sophisticated foreign infiltrators like the Islamic State have become, and how dangerous they are.
“I recognize that’s a valid point,” the senator said, “But what you didn’t have was a widespread effort on behalf of Fidel Castro to infiltrate into the United States killers who were going to detonate weapons and kill people.”
“Times have changed,” he said. “Policies have to change. If there’s a conflict there, I think that’s just a reality.”
--Nbauman (talk) 04:05, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for sharing the NYT article. Our BLP says, "Rubio's grandfather remained in the US illegally and re-applied for permanent resident status in 1966...." The NYT article shows that to be false: "Garcia was granted status as a parolee, a gray area of the law that meant he would not get a green card but could remain in the United States....For years after he was allowed back into the United States, Mr. Garcia’s legal status would remain unresolved. His designation as a parolee meant he would not have to leave. But he did not know whether he would ever get a green card. That did not come until almost exactly five years to the day after he was stopped in Miami." So right now we're conveying the false impression that the grandfather was in the US illegally from 1962 to 1966. Are we so eager to score points against Rubio that we need to select a single incident from a single grandparent, and then distort it beyond recognition? To the extent this material belongs at Wikipedia, the best place would be at Political positions of Marco Rubio, because that's what this is all about. Rubio did not even know about his maternal grandfather's parolee status until 2012, so putting this in the early life section at such great length is a very bad choice.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:39, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Whether his grandfather was in the country illegally is a legal determination. We should follow WP:RSs and repeat what they say. The AP story says that he "may have temporarily been in U.S. illegally." The NYT story doesn't use the term "illegal" at all. For you to say that the NYT article shows that it's false is your interpretation and is WP:OR. In any case, your proper response would be to change the word "illegal" -- preferably after discussing it in Talk. In any case, Rubio himself says that it's a "fair point." So that argues for leaving it in and certainly against blanking the entire paragraph. --Nbauman (talk) 09:17, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

The following WP:RS explicitly or implicitly say that Rubio's grandfather, Pedro Victor, was an "illegal" immigrant. The repeated coverage in many WP:RS indicates that it is significant and belongs in the entry: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/marco-rubios-grandfather-had-difficult-transition-to-us/2012/06/17/gJQA4535jV_story.html In a way Pedro Victor’s treatment was not unlike the present-day experiences of many Mexicans and Central Americans who come to the United States legally but later run afoul of visa laws.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/04/ten-things-you-need-know-about-marco-rubio According to a Rubio biography due out in June by Washington Post reporter Manuel Roig-Franzia, Rubio's grandfather Pedro Victor Garcia was an illegal immigrant to the United States.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/26/opinion/navarrette-rubio-vp/ New report says Rubio's grandfather entered U.S. illegally from Cuba

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/07/02/nation-of-immigrants Rubio doesn’t discuss Pedro Víctor’s interlude as an illegal immigrant, however, or the police discretion that aided him; --Nbauman (talk) 09:48, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

The BLP again contains false information, thanks to this revert. I will have nothing more to do with this BLP, while it is being used for such purposes. And I regret having ever given this BLP a patina of legitimacy by working to improve it.Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:04, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for accepting WP:CONSENSUS.--Nbauman (talk) 16:22, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
I don't accept anything about this. It's disgraceful.Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:30, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
The previous text represented available reliable sources to date. With a new source available (the New York Times article), User:Nbauman has amended our coverage to reflect it. All of that is how Wikipedia works. Rubio's grandfather was described by Rubio himself as his mentor and closest friend during his childhood, and his grandfather also figures prominently in the definitive third-party biography of Rubio and in numerous reliable sources (mostly in relation to his immigration troubles). If you can't bring yourself to understand why this merits a very brief mention in Rubio's biography, then I think it's best you adhere to your vow to have nothing more to do with this article. MastCell Talk 21:30, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

I will certainly keep to my vow for the time being, and probably until the election silly season is over. I have become accustomed to this sort of editing from you, MastCell, and I want nothing to do with it. The second paragraph of this article after the lead (which you are defending) now says this:

This is full of weasel words, it says nothing about his grandfather being his mentor and closest friend, and instead focuses obsessively on legal charges against his grandfather which the New York Times has clearly debunked. The New York Times very clearly says that the grandfather was allowed to stay in the US from 1962 to 1966, which we now hide from readers. And you yourself acknowledged that Rubio did not even know about his grandfather's immigration issues until 2012 — issues which all occurred before he was born. You have also acknowledged that the relevance here involves Rubio's immigration position, which is not the subject of this particular section. What's going on here is guilt by association in addition to a propagandistic distortion of what happened. It fails WP:NPOV, not to mention WP:Undue weight. So I am very glad to be done dealing with this sort of crap here at this article. Do what you want with it.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:45, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

This diff https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Marco_Rubio&action=historysubmit&type=revision&diff=708789026&oldid=708756894 keeps getting deleted without consensus. I think it belongs because it's been widely reported, it concisely states the problem, and it gives his response. Does anybody besides this one editor think it should go out? Does anybody else think it should stay? --Nbauman (talk) 19:43, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Rubio's response to a political question doesn't belong in the Early Life section of his biography. It may make more sense to include it in the article on his Political Positions.Eeyoresdream (talk) 18:05, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Relegating it to the article on his political positions would be a WP:POVFORK. This is an important issue, because this political position affects Rubio directly, and it has been repeated by many WP:RS. WP:NPOV requires us to include the views that (1) It may seem hypocritical or self-serving that his own grandfather got into the US by a policy that he would now deny to others, and (2) Rubio believes that the situation now with ISIS is different from the situation then. You can't leave it out and you can't delete either POV. --Nbauman (talk) 01:08, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
The content doesn't belong in the Political Positions section of this article, as the section is in summary form. It MAY belong in some form in the Political Positions article on Rubio. POVFORK doesn't apply as I'm not suggesting that we create a new article.Eeyoresdream (talk) 01:46, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
Let's see what the other editors, like User:MastCell, think, of this. --Nbauman (talk) 03:36, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 March 2016

The word "Lighweight" in Rubio's name is inappropriate and should be removed. 68.205.139.155 (talk) 16:47, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

 Done - by another - Arjayay (talk) 16:51, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Removing second paragraph after the lead

This very long paragraph about Rubio's maternal grandfather is significant because of Rubio's stance about immigration policy, and without the context about his immigration policy readers will not understand why this one facet of the life of one grandparent warrants such great detail. This stuff about his maternal grandfather is presented in context at the article Political positions of Marco Rubio, and I support it there. Also, the maternal grandfather's arrival in 1962 is mentioned later in this main article on Rubio, and I support keeping that too. But all of the second paragraph (after the lead) is undue weight, and now that Rubio's presidential campaign is over perhaps it can be removed without a lot of fuss.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:01, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't see what the status of Rubio's Presidential campaign has to do with this aspect of the article. I agree the paragraph has gotten a bit bloated, but in terms of undue weight, I think you've got it twisted around backward. Rubio's grandfather is identified, both by Rubio himself and by his reputable biographers, as perhaps the single closest relative and greatest influence on Rubio. To suggest that we excise this mention of him seems bizarre. The context about his grandfather's immigration difficulties is relevant, just as we discuss prominent first- and second-degree relatives in many other biographies, and more importantly, dozens of independent, reliable sources have identified this aspect of Rubio's family history as relevant and noteworthy. We are supposed to follow reliable sources. MastCell Talk 00:42, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
As the New York Times headline says, the relevance of the grandfather's immigration issues is that Rubio's immigration policies would affect someone similarly situated. And that is fully covered in Political positions of Marco Rubio, as it should be. The second paragraph of this BLP (after the lead) says zippo about Rubio's immigration policies, nor should it, because it's a section about Rubio's early life. We could insert a huge paragraph about the hairstyle of his paternal grandmother, and readers would be just as bewildered about why it's obsessively covered in the early life section. Thousands of BLPs at wikipedia provide biographical information about people who have one or more grandparents who immigrated to the US and remained legally (like Rubio's grandfather), and the only reason this is significant in Rubio's case but not the others is because of Rubio's immigration policies, which are not and should not be described in the early life section.Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:59, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
With any politician, aspects of his or her biography blend into and inform his or her political positions. All the more so with someone like Rubio, whose political campaigns have focused so heavily on his personal biography and family history. I think you are trying to create an artificial separation that doesn't exist in actual reliable sources or biographies of Rubio, and that doesn't compute on a common-sense level either. MastCell Talk 01:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Are you saying that the section of this article titled "Early life, education, and entry into politics" should also discuss Rubio's immigration policies and how those policies might or might not affect someone like his grandfather? The New York Times doesn't separate Rubio's policies from the story of his grandfather's immigration (quite the opposite), and so I don't think we should separate them either. It should all be discussed together at Political positions of Marco Rubio. That would be all the more appropriate because Rubio was not born for many years after his grandfather's immigration, because he had no idea until long after he entered politics that his grandfather had a problematic immigration, and because the section about "Early life, education, and entry into politics" already appropriately mentions "Rubio's maternal grandfather who fled communist Cuba in 1962" which is more than enough for that section.Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:12, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Events that occur before one's birth can have an effect on one's life, and may even be relevant to an "Early life" section of a biography. Again, I don't think this is a foreign concept to you, so I'm not sure why we're stuck on it. MastCell Talk 01:16, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Are you saying that the section of this article titled "Early life, education, and entry into politics" should also discuss Rubio's immigration policies and how those policies might or might not affect someone like his grandfather?Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:17, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
I've shortened that bloated material, to focus on the deportation order which seems most notable, and also to explain that they had a close relationship, which may give the immigration problems of Garcia a semblance of greater relevance to this section of the BLP. The actual relevance is described in detail at political positions of Marco Rubio, so I still support removal of the second paragraph of this article after the lead. But I note that this is no longer a significant problem under WP:BLP which says, "Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association"; neither the most recent reliable sources, nor this BLP, say anymore that the grandfather remained in the U.S. illegally for years or may have done so.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:02, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
The material should not have been shortened. Just because Senator Rubio's presidential campaign tanked, doesn't make this material any less relevant. He is still in a position to significantly influence immigration policy, that is, if he actually shows up to vote.- MrX 18:11, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
I agree with MastCell that it was bloated. All the detail is retained at political positions of Marco Rubio and more can be added there. I don't see any relevance whatsoever in describing the grandfather's earlier immigration (prior to 1962) here in the early life section, or any relevance to describing how reliable sources have gradually evolved in their treatment of Garcia. I also don't think it's wise to load Garcia-immigration detail into the early life section without explaining its relevance to immigration policy (which is why the NYT has deemed it relevant).Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:06, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

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RfC: Should Senator Rubio's portrait be replaced?

Consensus OPPOSED to replacing Senator Rubio's portrait. (Result: retain image A) Alsee (talk) 08:34, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A
B

Should the official portrait of Senator Rubio (A) be replaced with (B)? - 15:05, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

  • Oppose - Of the 100 sitting U.S. Senators, 99 use their official portraits, with the exception of Cory Booker, for whom none is available. When choosing an infobox portrait we must consider what is the best image, and of most encyclopedic value. Image A, as with U.S. Congressional portrait in general, provide us with image of excellent quality, which are free-use, and which provide great encyclopedic value. The proposed image, as well as almost all more 'recent' images currently available to us, are of inferior quality. Image B has a very poor angle, it is looking from below, upward. It is not head-on, the Senator is not looking at the camera, nor in the general direction thereof, nor is his head centered. There is a microphone clearly in frame. It is of far lower resolution, clarity, and composition. Image A is a professionally executed image, it is his official U.S. Senate portrait, it has excellent lighting, color, composition, resolution, and framing of the subject. It is a superior image. Furthermore, Senator Rubio has not visibly aged or changed his appearance to such a degree as to appear different in this official portrait than he does on the campaign trail. Secretary Clinton's article has used a more recent candid, which is of high quality, to substitute for her official State Department portrait due to the aforementioned qualities which affect her appearance. These do not apply here. Therefore, all things considered, Image A is by far the best.   Spartan7W §   15:05, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose. I find both images acceptable, but I think that the rule for sitting senators to systematically use the official senate portraits (unless there are strong reasons for an exception) saves us a lot of discussion. The image is unquestionably good enough, free, and not misleading. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:18, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose (favor A) per Spartan7W and Stephan Schulz. Both images are acceptable and represent the subject well, but the the official portrait has better technical and aesthetic quality. Senator Rubio is still a senator, so using his official government portrait seems most appropriate at this point.- MrX 15:37, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose (favor A). I agree with Spartan7W's argument, though I don't agree with the tone of the comments made in the section above, the comments directed at Anythingyouwant. Drmies (talk) 15:43, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The official, formal image is more appropriate to appear in an article concerning a sitting U.S. Senator, and accurately reflects the current appearance of the subject. Though color balance is more pleasant, picture B is just a little more informal (viz collar and tie) and given that the official photo is available to us, we should use it. General Ization Talk 15:44, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Favor. The other image is clearer and more relevant. Resolution does not matter because of the size of it on the page (no one would notice) and it's a picture of him campaigning for the office he is currently seeking instead of the generic six-years-old portrait. Both images are fine but Spartan7W continues edit warring and insulting the intelligence of myself and Anythingyouwant. Not a good way to get his message across. SirLagsalott (talk) 15:57, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
  • That section has a gap from February 23 to February 28. As of February 23 there was a consensus, and that's when I summarized the opinions and restored the more recently-created image.Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:29, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
What consensus? You maybe had 1 more pro over the cons, but thats no consensus, especially considering the kind of precedent we're looking at with U.S. politicians.   Spartan7W §   14:28, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
As I said on February 23: "the more recent image is preferred by myself, Eeyoresdream, and CFredkin; MB298 prefers the older image, and MrX thinks there's not much difference. So, I will put back the recent image, which as I said is already used at the German Wikipedia." That seemed like three to one among those expressing an opinion. Now that the RFC has sampled a broader response, that February 23 consensus is overturned. I really don't know what you expect from me; I'm not going to pretend the opinions were opposed to the newly-created image on February 23, just because the opinions are opposed to the newly-created image on March 1. I did not have a crystal ball on February 23.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:06, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
I went through about a dozen very famous, current Senators and 7 of their Wikipedia photo URLs, including Mitch McConnell and Harry Reid, went to dead link 404s because they are no longer the official photo. Lipsquid (talk) 16:32, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
So? --John (talk) 16:56, 29 February 2016 (UTC):
Very insightful John. I thought someone may have an interest in looking into other photos for inconsistencies. Different people find different topics important. That is what makes Wikipedia great. Lipsquid (talk) 19:37, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm curious: Is there any reason why you think the 404s come "because they are no longer the official photo[s]" rather than because the Senate website has been majorly overhauled while ignoring best practices? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:52, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
I do not know, but I did go to the McConnell site and searched for "official photo" and a different photo came up than the one Wikipedia uses. [1] Lipsquid (talk) 20:15, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.mcconnell.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=Biography
  • Oppose, the official portrait is the most appropriate for a biography of a sitting U.S. Senator.--William S. Saturn (talk) 19:28, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Support. The new picture shows the subject after aging more than 10%, so it's more accurate in that regard. I'm not aware of a pertinent rule or guideline that requires the older image. It's true that 99 other Senator BLPs use the official image, but...only two of them are primarily known now for something else: being a presidential candidate in 2016, so that's a significant difference to consider (and both Sanders and Cruz have had a smaller change in age percentage-wise since the official image was taken). As to image quality, no significant difference is apparent at thumbnail size. I also find the title of this RFC confusing, because the recent image has been in place for a while (six days); a "replacement" would result in the older image. Cheers.Anythingyouwant (talk)
    • I looked back at Feb. 1 and Jan 2, and the RfC text seems correct to me; image A is the status quo ante, before edit-warring to put in image B began around February, am I correct? Therefore the RfC is to try (obviously unsuccessfully) to get a consensus to change it to B. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 08:29, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose – Official portraits are usually most desired, and Rubio hasn't aged much since 2011. MB298 (talk) 00:20, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose Agree with the many comments above made in favor of official portraits as a standard for bio pages of sitting office holders.--JayJasper (talk) 00:32, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment If anyone wants a more recent image, but doesn't like image B, look at commons:Category:Portrait photographs of Marco Rubio. MB298 (talk) 01:10, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
I'll come back to it next January, when he'll no longer be a U.S. Senator. Until then, it looks like people want to stick with the official image from 2011.Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:26, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
The discussion is still going on, and should be left open for a few more days. MB298 (talk) 04:52, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New RfC opened: Should current and recent candidates for US President be called "politicians"?

Should current and recent candidates in the 2016 US Presidential election include politician among their notable occupations in the lead of their biographical articles, even if the candidate eschews the term? Please participate in a new Request for Comment on this question. General Ization Talk 12:30, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Sources for infobox religion?

I am going through the entire list of all forty candidates for US President in 2016 (many now withdrawn) and trying to make sure that the religion entry in the infobox of each page meets Wikipedia's requirements.

Here are the requirements for listing a religion in the infobox (religion in the body of the article has different rules):

  • Per Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 126#RfC: Religion in biographical infoboxes: "the 'religion=' parameter and the associated 'denomination=' parameter should be removed from all pages that use Template:Infobox person. Inclusion is permitted in individual articles' infoboxes as a custom parameter only if directly tied to the person's notability. Inclusion is permitted in derived, more specific infoboxes that genuinely need it for all cases, such as one for religious leaders." Please note that if nobody has bothered to mention religion in the body of the article, that is strong evidence that the subject's beliefs are not relevant to their public life or notability.
  • Per WP:BLPCAT: "Categories regarding religious beliefs (or lack of such) should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question, and the subject's beliefs are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources" ... "These principles apply equally to lists, navigation templates, and Infobox statements". The "relevant to their public life or notability" clause should be interpreted as follows: Would this individual be notable for his/her religion if he/she were not notable for running for US president? Are we talking about someone who is notable for being religious, of someone who is notable who also happens to be religious?
  • Per WP:CAT/R: "Categories regarding religious beliefs or lack of such beliefs of a living person should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief in question (see WP:BLPCAT), either through direct speech or through actions like serving in an official clerical position for the religion." In other words, if someone running for US president has never publicly stated on the record that they belong to a religion, we don't take the word of even reliable sources on what their religion is.
  • Per WP:LOCALCON, a local consensus on an article talk page can not override the overwhelming (75% to 25%) consensus at Template talk:Infobox#RfC: Religion in infoboxes that nonreligions cannot be listed in the religion entry of any infobox. That RfC has a handy list of religions and nonreligions to avoid the inevitable arguments about what is and what is not a religion. Everyone who !voted on the RfC saw that list and had ample opportunity to dispute it if they disagreed with it.

The forty candidates are:

Extended content

Source of list: United States presidential election, 2016

  • Name: Farley Anderson: No Wikipedia page, nothing to do.
  • Name: Jeb Bush: Infobox Religion: Roman Catholicism Religion name mentioned in Body? Yes, but all links cited are dead. Discuss on article talk page.
  • Name: Ben Carson: Infobox Religion: Seventh-day Adventist. Clearly meets all requirements for inclusion, nothing to do.
  • Name: Darrell Castle: Infobox Religion: No religion entry in infobox, nothing to do.
  • Name: Lincoln Chafee: Infobox Religion: Episcopalian. Religion name not mentioned in body; religion entry in infobox should be removed.
  • Name: Darryl Cherney: Infobox Religion: No religion entry in infobox, nothing to do.
  • Name: Chris Christie: Infobox Religion: Roman Catholicism. Religion name mentioned in body, self-identifies as Catholic.[4] Discuss on article talk page.
  • Name: Hillary Clinton: Infobox Religion: Methodist. Religion name mentioned in body, self-identifies as Methodist.[5] Discuss on article talk page.
  • Name: Ted Cruz: Infobox Religion: Southern Baptist. Religion name mentioned in body, self-identifies as Southern Baptist.[6] Discuss on article talk page.
  • Name: Sedinam Curry: No Wikipedia page, nothing to do.
  • Name: Carly Fiorina: Infobox Religion: Nondenominational Christianity. Religion name not mentioned in body; religion entry in infobox should be removed.
  • Name: Jim Gilmore: Infobox Religion: Methodism. Religion name not mentioned in body; religion entry in infobox should be removed.
  • Name: Lindsey Graham: Infobox Religion: Southern Baptist. Religion name mentioned in body, but citation fails direct speech requiement.[7] Discuss on article talk page.
  • Name: James Hedges: Infobox Religion: No religion entry in infobox, nothing to do.
  • Name: Tom Hoefling: No Infobox, nothing to do.
  • Name: Mike Huckabee: Infobox Religion: Southern Baptist. Clearly meets all requirements for inclusion, nothing to do.
  • Name: Bobby Jindal: Infobox Religion: Roman Catholicism. Religion name mentioned in body, self-identifies as "Evangelical Catholic."[8]
  • Name: Gary Johnson: Infobox Religion: Lutheranism. Religion name mentioned in body, but citation is a dead link. Discuss on article talk page.
  • Name: John Kasich: Infobox Religion: Anglicanism. Religion name mentioned in body, self-identifies as Christian[9] but citation doesn't have him specifying anglicism in direct speech. Discuss on article talk page.
  • Name: Chris Keniston: No Wikipedia page, nothing to do.
  • Name: William Kreml: No Wikipedia page, nothing to do.
  • Name: Gloria La Riva: Infobox Religion: No religion entry in infobox, nothing to do.
  • Name: Lawrence Lessig: Infobox Religion: No religion entry in infobox, nothing to do.
  • Name: John McAfee: Infobox Religion: No religion entry in infobox, nothing to do.
  • Name: Kent Mesplay: Infobox Religion: No religion entry in infobox, nothing to do.
  • Name: Martin O'Malley: Infobox Religion: Roman Catholicism. Religion name mentioned in body, comes really close to self-identifying[10] but I would be more comforable if we could find a citation with unambigious direct speech. Discuss on article talk page.
  • Name: George Pataki: Infobox Religion: Roman Catholicism. Religion name not mentioned in body; religion entry in infobox should be removed.
  • Name: Rand Paul: Infobox Religion: Presbyterianism. Religion name not mentioned in body; religion entry in infobox should be removed.
  • Name: Rick Perry: Infobox Religion: Nondenominational Evangelicalism. Religion name mentioned in body, but this page is a classic case of what happens when you don't follow the self-identification rule. Someone took a reference that says "Perry now attends Lake Hills Church more frequently than he attends Tarrytown, he said, in part because it's closer to his home"[11] and assigned him as being a member of Lake Hills Church based on that slim evidence. Discuss on article talk page.
  • Name: Austin Petersen: No Wikipedia page, nothing to do.
  • Name: Marco Rubio: Infobox Religion: Roman Catholicism. Religion name mentioned in body, but this page is a classic case of what happens when you don't follow the self-identification rule. Someone took a reference that says "Rubio... attends Catholic churches as well as a Southern Baptist megachurch."[12] and assigned him as being Roman Catholic based on that slim evidence. Discuss on article talk page.
  • Name: Bernie Sanders: Infobox Religion: Infobox religion already decided by RfC. See Talk:Bernie Sanders/Archive 13.
  • Name: Rick Santorum: Infobox Religion: Roman Catholicism. Religion name mentioned in body. Many citations about him being catholic, but I couldn't find a place where he self-identifioes using direct speech. Religion name mentioned in body,
  • Name: Rod Silva (businessman) No Infobox, nothing to do.
  • Name: Mimi Soltysik Infobox Religion: No religion entry in infobox, nothing to do.
  • Name: Jill Stein Infobox Religion: Reform Judaism. Religion name not mentioned in body; religion entry in infobox should be removed.
  • Name: Donald Trump Infobox Religion:Presbyterian. Infobox religion already decided by RfC. See Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 1#Donald Trump Religion
  • Name: Scott Walker Infobox Religion: Nondenominational Evangelicalism. Religion name mentioned in body, self-identifies as "born-again Christian".[13] Discuss on article talk page.
  • Name: Jim Webb Infobox Religion: Nondenominational Christianity. Religion name not mentioned in body; religion entry in infobox should be removed. Note: Citation in infobox fails self-identification requirement.

My goal is to determine whether Wikipedia's requirements are met for the above forty pages, and to insure that we have citations to reliable sources that meet the requirements.

You are encouraged to look at and comment on the other pages, not just this one.

Please provide any citations that you believe establish a direct tie to the person's notability, self-identification in the person's own words, etc. Merely posting an opinion is not particularly helpful unless you have sources to back up your claims. I would ask everyone to please avoid responding to any comment that doesn't discuss a source or one of the requirements listed above. You can. of course, discuss anything you want in a separate section, but right now we are focusing on finding and verifying sources that meet Wikipedia's requirements. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:21, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Removing religion from infobox

Previously, I asked for citations showing that this page meets Wikipedia's requirements for listing religion in the infobox and in the list of categories. I also did my own search. There do not appear to be sources establishing compliance with the rules for inclusion, so I have removed the religion entry and categories. It appears that this page does not meet Wikipedia's requirements, so I am removing religion from the infobox and categories. Editors are encouraged to add properly sourced religion information to the body of the article, subject to WP:V and WP:WEIGHT.

As a reminder Here are the requirements for listing a religion in the infobox and categories (religion in the body of the article has different rules):

Extended content
  • Per Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 126#RfC: Religion in biographical infoboxes: "the 'religion=' parameter and the associated 'denomination=' parameter should be removed from all pages that use Template:Infobox person. Inclusion is permitted in individual articles' infoboxes as a custom parameter only if directly tied to the person's notability. Inclusion is permitted in derived, more specific infoboxes that genuinely need it for all cases, such as one for religious leaders." Please note that if nobody has bothered to mention religion in the body of the article, that is strong evidence that the subject's beliefs are not relevant to their public life or notability.
  • Per WP:BLPCAT: "Categories regarding religious beliefs (or lack of such) should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question, and the subject's beliefs are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources" ... "These principles apply equally to lists, navigation templates, and Infobox statements". In the context of politicians and political candidates, there is a strong consensus in discussion after discussion that The "relevant to their public life or notability" clause should be interpreted as follows: Would this individual be notable for his/her religion if he/she were not notable for running for US president? Are we talking about someone who is notable for being religious, of someone who is notable who also happens to be religious?
  • Per WP:CAT/R: "Categories regarding religious beliefs or lack of such beliefs of a living person should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief in question (see WP:BLPCAT), either through direct speech or through actions like serving in an official clerical position for the religion." In other words, if someone running for US president has never publicly stated on the record that they belong to a religion, we don't take the word of even reliable sources on what their religion is.
  • Per WP:CATDEF: "A central concept used in categorising articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define in prose, as opposed to a tabular or list form the subject as having -- such as nationality or notable profession (in the case of people), type of location or region (in the case of places), etc. (Emphasis is in original)
  • Per WP:DEFINING: "Biographical articles should be categorized by defining characteristics. As a rule of thumb for main biographies this includes: standard biographical details: year of birth, year of death and nationality [and] the reason(s) for the person's notability; i.e., the characteristics the person is best known for. For example, a film actor who holds a law degree should be categorized as a film actor, but not as a lawyer unless his or her legal career was notable in its own right [...] a defining characteristic is one that reliable, secondary sources commonly and consistently define, in prose, the subject as having. For example: "Subject is an adjective noun..." or "Subject, an adjective noun,...". If such examples are common, each of adjective and noun may be deemed to be "defining" for subject. If the characteristic would not be appropriate to mention in the lead portion of an article, it is probably not defining. [...] Often, users can become confused between the standards of notability, verifiability, and "definingness". Notability is the test that is used to determine if a topic should have its own article. This test, combined with the test of verifiability, is used to determine if particular information should be included in an article about a topic. Definingness is the test that is used to determine if a category should be created for a particular attribute of a topic. In general, it is much easier to verifiably demonstrate that a particular characteristic is notable than to prove that it is a defining characteristic.
  • Per WP:LOCALCON, a local consensus on an article talk page can not override the overwhelming (75% to 25%) consensus at Template talk:Infobox#RfC: Religion in infoboxes that nonreligions cannot be listed in the religion entry of any infobox. That RfC has a handy list of religions and nonreligions to avoid the inevitable arguments about what is and what is not a religion. Everyone who !voted on the RfC saw that list and had ample opportunity to dispute it if they disagreed with it.

This page is a classic case of what happens when you don't follow the self-identification rule. Someone took a reference that says "Rubio... attends Catholic churches as well as a Southern Baptist megachurch." and assigned him as being Roman Catholic based on that slim evidence.

Note: this page has not been singled out. I asked for citations on all forty candidates (some now withdrawn) for the 2016 US presidential election. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:23, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Why 17 photographs?

As of today (I haven't looked at the article previously) there are 16 photographs of Rubio adorning this article, in addition to his official Senate portrait. It looks more like an ad than an encyclopedia article. His high school yearbook picture? Really? Surely some of these could be removed, to improve the article. Milkunderwood (talk) 22:09, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Churchill
FDR
Well, this is a biography, and pictures are useful in biographies. When we've got 'em, why not use 'em? For example, these are used in Wikpedia's biographies of Winston Churchill and Franklin D. Roosevelt.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:36, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Because it comes across as a political ad, that's why. It's unencyclopedic. Churchill and FDR are two of the most important persons of modern history. Who would say that of Rubio? It isn't a question of his politics, but his significance. Milkunderwood (talk) 05:15, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
If you would like to remove the high school pic, please do. I don't think you've mentioned any other particular pic that you don't like, but feel free to mention another one and maybe we can reach agreement about that too.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:31, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
Never mind, I went ahead and removed it for you.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:34, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
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