Talk:Mar Thoma Syrian Church/Archive 5

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REPORTING OF VANDALISM

There are many changes in the article which is made by some to satisfy some vested interest in last 2 months .Marthoma church is not a Protestent church. World council of church has already classified Marthoma church separate. It is repeatedly edited at many paragraphs with distorted facts. Wikipedia may look into it.. Marthomapaithrikam (talk) 12:02, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

^^As a response to the above statement^^ That is incorrect. I'm a former Marthomite and I can tell you right now, when it comes to doctrinal faith, the Marthoma Church is purely Protestant. The history of the church (cited on many websites and publications) clearly states how Claudius Buchanan and the CMS (Anglican) have influenced this Protestant breakaway from the Malankara Church. Just because the priests and bishops wear the vestments of the Syriac Orthodox Church, doesn't make your doctrine Syriac Orthodox. Not only that, many of the Marthomite congregations sing Anglican style hymns. I've attended Malankara Orthodox and Jacobite Qurbanas and they follow the true West Syriac tradition. Plus, the Qurbana has been heavily revised in comparison to the original St. James Liturgy from Jerusalem. Please stop lying and publish the truth, you're not fooling anybody.

It's to be noted that this page is exposed to a high degree of Vandalism.

The Church is an Oriental Orthodox Church with Syriac Traditions. But it's being edited to 'Protestant', 'Eastern Protestant's by the vandals to satisfy their own gains. <<Wrong. You Marthomites have a hard time accepting the truth, even your own publications contradict your statements.>>

There have been enough discussions in the Talk Page about the Oriental Orthodox Nature of the Mar Thoma Church, and enough proofs have been given there. But the vandalism still continues. Vandals are being warned not to do it again in this page. Admins are requested to kindly look into this matter and avoid unwanted edits. Mebin Benny (talk) 06:32, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Disruptions violating consensus

Hello Veverve & Chad The Goatman, If you don't mind, please keep article Mar Thoma Syrian Church and this talk page in your watch-list, as the article is still prone to the disruptions, in violation of the consensus achieved in July-August 2020.

Plus, there is a discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marthoma Family of Churches, in which you might want to participate. Thankyou & regards,--Macinderum (talk) 23:14, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

I purposefuly avoid putting any of those Indian churches on my watchlist, as the never-ending disputes around those articles are too heavy of a burden to me. Veverve (talk) 23:19, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Position of the Mar Thoma Church on the ordination of women and transgender individuals

Many independent sources sheds light upon this Oriental Protestant church's interesting position, on the question of ordination of women and transgender people. This church emphasizes the priesthood of all believers. The Mar Thoma church's official response to the Lima document of the WCC, makes it clear that this Church has no theological barrier to the ordination of women; just like many other Protestant churches. This Church shows no hesitation to accept a woman Kay Goldsworthy, in the office of an Archbishop; something that is inconceivable to Catholic and Orthodox Christians. The Mar Thoma church appears to be very actively working for the empowerment of Transgender people, with two of its metropolitans Joseph Mar Thoma and Theodosius Mar Thoma indicating that transgender individuals may be ordained in their church, in the future. In spite of all these, the Mar Thoma church hasn't actually ordained women or transgender persons yet, as it is not an Eastern Christian practice. Considering the fact that we have whole articles on related subjects like Transgender people and religion, Christianity and transgender people, Ordination of women, Ordination of women and the Catholic Church, Ordination of women in Protestant denominations, Ordination of women in the Anglican Communion, Ordination of women in Methodism etc., a section explaining the Mar Thoma church's views on the matter, is very relevant and useful.--Macinderum (talk) 08:53, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

You could have portrayed it in a more proper way instead of bringing the word reformed there as well. Reformed does not mean acceptance of female ordination, it is more of an induvidual aspect of each Church.All Churches have provided for and against arguments for women ordination including Catholic and Orthodox Churches as well. The Armenians and Syrians ordain women as deacons, Armenian women can take part in the Sanctuary as well.

Also please explain the "priesthood of all believers". I thought all Churches do that. From within the Royal priesthood is the special priesthood selected. Mar Thoma Church has the same view as it, except that it does not use the word "mediator" rather the word "medium". You can refer to Mar Thoma-Orthodox dialogue.

I have corrected a few sentences without removing the core of your points. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 07:33, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Indent your comments properly, to avoid creating a WP:TEXTWALL. I am aware of the historic existence of female diaconates within Eastern Christianity. No arguments there. But the Mar Thoma church, in its response to the Lima Document, says that it has no theological barriers to ordain women as priests, not deaconesses. Let me know one church of the Catholic or Orthodox communions, that has said something like that. It is obvious that the MTSC's stance on this matter, stems from its acceptance of the Priesthood of all believers, in a Protestant sense. All churches that has expressed the willingness to ordain women into priesthood, accepts that principle, in a similar fashion. Sources already incorporated into this article, says that the priesthood of all believers over and against the clergy, was one of the key points emphasized by the Anglican-influenced Mar Thoma reformers. This fact needs to be stressed in the section on female and transgender ordinations. Provide at least one reliable independent source, which proves your claim that Catholic and Orthodox churches have provided arguments in favor of ordaining women as priests. It is not even something that has been given any serious consideration. Read Priesthood in the Catholic Church and Priesthood (Eastern Orthodox Church) in your own time, for a proper understanding on the matter.--Macinderum (talk) 15:11, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes sure why not. First of all the LIMA Document is not a canon which affirms a Church's theology. The BEM Document has been put forward for making a shift towards a wider form of ecumenical integrity and cooperation. It has been used well over the years. In the Mar Thoma Syrian Church the highest theological body are the officially articulated decisions of the Honourable Episcopal Synod. Sabha Council can respond to theological issues, however is not official. Last year Bishop Georg Bätzing, the current president of the German national conference of Catholic prelates, called for a more inclusive church on Tuesday , suggesting that the Catholic hierarchy could shift its positions on women’s ordination and homosexuality. Bätzing, who heads the Diocese of Limburg, near Frankfurt, told a German magazine that while it is important to “honestly state the church’s arguments as to why the sacramental ministry can only be given to men,” those arguments are becoming less convincing over time. https://religionnews.com/2020/12/29/top-german-catholic-bishop-urges-shift-on-womens-ordination-homosexuality/ , [1].May I also mention the famed Orthodox theologian Kallistos Ware giving an indirect approval for the recognition of Female priesthood as well as blessing homosexual marriages, this was a very strong talk a few years back in the Eastern Orthodox Circles. He had also written a book back in 2000 namely "Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church" wherein he argues, throughout his essay, therefore, that the possibility of ordaining women to the priesthood in the Orthodox Church remains an open question, not to be decided either way with haste. [2]

Second point, "Priesthood of all believers" or simply in biblical terms The Royal Priesthood mentioned in 1st Peter 2, is accepted by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as well. Within the Mar Thoma Church as well as other Apostolic Churches, High Anglicans and High Lutherans included while accepting the concept of the Royal Priesthood, also promotes the "Ministerial Priesthood" which was established by Jesus Christ by selecting the 12. We see a similar portrayal in the old testament as well. In the Book of Exodus, God calls the Israelites the "Royal Priesthood" at the same time God establishes the Priesthood of Aaron (the Levitical priesthood) from within the royal priests. Providing links as well to understand Catholic and Orthodox stands. [3] , [4].

I guess I have made my point clear. I am assuming you are a hardcore Orthodox/Catholic member, but these are aspects or areas that come across every church, discussed and debated across all churches. Thomas Mar Athanasius Metropolitan after losing the Royal Court case, saddened and broken once told his very capable and strong elder sister and told her "You would have been a better leader for the flock, but Christ has not planned the priesthood for women". Personally I was fascinated by the open mind he had 150 years back. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 20:51, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Everybody knows that many individual inclusionist voices have arisen, from within the Catholic and Orthodox worlds; not to mention the changes that have been implemented in several areas. Pope Francis is one of the most well known and sincere inclusionists of the present day. But has any Church of Catholic or Orthodox confessions, categorically stated that it has no theological barriers to ordaining women? The Mar Thoma church's reply to the BEM document is official, though not self-binding. It clearly says that the MTSC has no theological impediments to ordaining women. It points to theological differences with Catholic and Orthodox churches. I neither have the time nor the inclination to help build another textwall, by engaging in an elaborate discussion on the priesthood of all believers. That is out of scope. Talking specifically about the Mar Thoma church, the sources in the article makes it clear that this church emphasizes the Protestant understanding of the concept; not a Catholic or Orthodox one. The Mar Thoma church views all believers as part of the ordained community (check this), unlike dedicated and consecrated Holy orders in Catholicism/Orthodoxy. I understand that the MTSC is an episcopal church, but it largely follows the model of Anglicans and High Church Lutherans. Honestly, I don't think I should waste even one more second of my time on this minor thing. Moreover it is useless trying to reason with you, because you have a vested interest to somehow portray your Reformed Mar Thoma church as an Oriental Orthodox Church. Hence you intentionally turn a blind eye to what reliable sources in the article explicitly say.--Macinderum (talk) 08:09, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Theological matters are continuously evolving brother. While having a base in the Patristic fathers,every Church has continuously evolved its Theological doctrines. Mar Thoma Church would have taken such a stand in the 1980s probably due to the force from the Anglicans, but the Church made sure it does make it a part of the official theological discourse of the Church. A one off event cannot be called as an official position, and that too in a document which promotes inter church relationships.

All believers are ordained through Baptism, that is not the Mar Thoma understanding, but the Syric Oriental understanding. Through Baptism all believers get ordained into the priestly Order of Ulmoyo. However ministerial priesthood is seperate only to which a select few is alloted. Even Diaconate is not part of the ministerial priesthood eventhough after the Nicene council it was made a stepping stone to ministerial priesthood. You may check this site or official sites of the Malankara Orthodox Church regarding what I mentioned https://mannaghaziabad.com/post/44/different-orders-of-priesthood-in-malankara-orthodox-syrian-church-explaining-the-responsibilities-and-vestments-of-each-order

I would like to quote from the Orthodox Syrian- Mar Thoma Syrian Dialogue under Paulos Mar Gregorios Metropolitan on the common faith declaration regarding ministry, "We are agreed that the Episcopal Ministry with Prebyters and Deacons to assist the Bishops belong historically to the life of the Church. We both believe that the Holy Spirit bestows special Grace and Power through the Sacrament of Ordination".

I don't have any vested interest brothers, it took a bit more studying and talks with Ecumenical leaders to realize how other Churches view Mar Thoma Church. Eventhough following similar Theological and Christological views, Mar Thoma Church does not fit in the Oreintal Orthodox Family, rather it is a completely Independent Apostolic Church that has within it the characteristics of all foreign Churches which gave spiritual guidance to the Ancient Indian Church. That is why Mar Thoma Church is considered a Seperate Ecclesiastical Tradition and Family in the World Council of Churches. Sadly you have much vested interest in trying to degrade the Mar Thoma Church as a Protestant Church. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 09:59, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't think Macinderum is degrading the Mar Thoma Church by stating straight forward facts of it's Protestant oriented doctrine. I think historians and other scholars can agree that Anglican theology is what caused the schism within Malankara. The simple fact that the Marthoma Church is within the Anglican communion and allows the Episcopal Church to provide pastoral support is clear evidence of it's theological standing and similarities. The fact is, the Marthoma Church is an Eastern Reformed Protestant Church. The nature of worship is similar to that of Syriac Orthodoxy, but it's theological core is western protestant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.197.104.50 (talk) 01:34, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 March 2022

Add Template:Christian denominations in the English-speaking world, Template:Christianity in Germany, and Template:Christianity in Switzerland to the article. BlackEvangelical (talk) 23:08, 24 March 2022 (UTC) BlackEvangelical (talk) 23:08, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. There are already five huge navigation templates on the bottom of the page. Adding three more won't help anyone. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:17, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

This Article is highly biased Readers discretion is advised

As a part of lobbying by certain wikipedians affiliated to certain churches, this article is wrongly cited and contains wrongly interpreted informations from some sources. Readers discretion is advised. Please go through church official website and World Council of Churches website to gather right information. Abin jv (talk) 18:15, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree to this. Painfully this page is continuously used to complexify the concept of what the Mar Thoma Church is. In the public the Mar Thoma Church has been able to portray its character and uniqueness to the world churches. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 03:55, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Constant Biased Editing by one User

I really want to revert back to the changes that I made. However accepting Wikipedia policy of consensus, I would like to put down some points

Quoting WP:SCHOLARSHIP, the best reliability is to the quote 2nd party publicly published sources. If that is the case, then the term "Eastern Protestant" itself is wrong and it seems to be a name that was formed in Wikipedia alone. I understand "Reformed Syrian" or "Independent" or as the World Council of Churches provides "Mar Thoma Confessional Tradition".

The next point I would like to make is that this article is not precise and clear. It look like a lot of wanted and unwanted information has been piled together. For example the census in the lead section. What is the purpose of that? This census is not seen in any other church pages from the same geographical location.

Transgender ordination: Is the concept of present day transgenderism and the connection made by one of the prelates to Philip and the Eunuch the same? That being said, has the church officially given a statement anywhere regarding the same? There are many bishops in the Roman Catholic Church and other Apostolic Churches who support LGBTQ+ marriages, does that make it official. If the editors want it to continue there, then it must be made clear that these are just opinions and not official decisions.

If the other users are in consensus, I would like to continue to make this page better based on reliable sources (which may or may not be available online) and provide a better interpretation than the present confusing one. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 04:08, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Titling a section Constant Biased Editing by one User is really not conducive to conversation. Similarly, not citing the problematic diffs or your sources for desired changes in such a comment are also not helpful. ~ Pbritti (talk) 06:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@Pbritti You haven't answered my questions. Don't mind the title. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 02:10, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

The weakness of your WCC source has already been exposed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marthoma Family of Churches. In that discussion, you will also find examples of reliably published, scholarly sources; which unlike the WCC, do not merely report the self-proclaimed assertions of its member churches. All those sources classify the Mar Thoma Church as Anglican/Protestant. As a result, your WCC source, as well as the article Marthoma Family of Churches, which was created based on that source, were dismissed and the article converted to a mere redirect to all Saint Thomas Christian denominations. The Protestant aspects of the Mar Thoma Church are already explained here, with sources.--Macinderum (talk) 05:03, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 December 2023

Add new bishops in Metropolitans and bishops Zacharias Mar Aprem Joseph Mar Ivanios Mathews Mar Seraphim Joleoooo (talk) 14:06, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: It's not clear where this is to be added.  Spintendo  04:55, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

References