Talk:Eastern Protestant Christianity

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Isn't the church(Pazhaya kootukaar)that seperated from the Romans during the Koonan Kurishu Oath are called Malankara Syrian Church?

No, the term Pazhayakootar is against the actual history of the Malankara church or the St Thomas christian church. The Roman catholic faith came to Malankara only in 15th Centuary, and the church was forced to remain under the Catholics for around 100 years, but later they revolted against the Catholics and thus happened the Koonan Kurishu Satyam. After the oath, everyone moved away from the Catholic authority except a few and made the Arch Deacon Thomas (He is titled as the father and gate to all India) as bishop titled Mar Thoma 1. Everyone stood behind the Mar Thoma until the propagandists from Catholic church came to Malankara and brought back the majority to catholic fold by using their religious machinery. So the united church split and those who went after the Catholics came to known as Romans and the Catholics called themselves as the Old faction, ignoring the fact that all the traditions and titles are held by the independent faction under Mar Thoma 1. The Catholics labelled the Malankara Syrians as new faction or puthenkoor. The church continued to use the name "Malankara Church" and those who moved away from Malankara Church and joined the Catholic fold too used the term for some more time, but eventually they dropped the usage of terms "Malanara" or 'Malankara Nasrani" to refer themselves and they were came to known as Romans. Later the British/Dutch used the term Romo Syrians to differentiate them from the Catholics which were converted by the Portugese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.209.220.118 (talk) 06:32, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

During the Reformation the Church split into two factions - one (Marthomites) (Metran Kakshi) delcared long standing independance of the church from the time of St. Thomas.

The other faction (Jacobites) (Bava Kakshi) pledged their Allegiance to Patriarch of Antioch and accepted him as head of their Church.

On legal battle to Marthomites lost the custody of Churches & its properties except for very few, but remained as a true Indian Church of Antiquity.

Majority of the Jacobite faction soon realised the mistake and danger of their make shift commitment of declaration of allegance to patriarch of antioch (which was done in hast to defeat Marthomites in court - in light of Mavelikkara padiola declaration).

So they started to uphold the same stand the Marthomites took - that the Church of St. Thomas is independant and not under the jurisdiction of Patriarch of Antioch to which some object to denounse. The new freedom fighters of the Jacobite Faction is calling themselves as Indian orthodox Church, the rest still using the name Malankara Jacobite Church or Universal Syrian Orthodox Church.

So Marthoma Church is not the faction came out of the Indian orthodox Church but Marthoma Church is "the Real Indian Orthodox Church" which reformed. It is the original root of the St. Thomas Christians. Rest is trying to reclaim what they have lost by disowning lineage unwisely.

Response: The Mar Thoma are the protestant arm of the Jacobites. Their ecclesiology is very much protestant, aand while still liturgical, they are not quite apostolic christians as understood by Catholics and Orthodox.

There are actually 3 or 4 groups in this mess... The Malankara Orthodox, the Malankara Catholics, the MarThomites, and the Malankara Jacobites. The MarThoma are clearly protestant, based upon their own websites... eg: http://www.marthomasyrianchurch.org/current_metro.htm

They maintain a form of episcopal hierarchy, but their theology is protestant, and their bishops were educated in protestant seminaries.

By the way, you forgot to sign your comments... Wfh (talk) 03:59, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Primary topic

I have moved this page to the base title because it already redirected here anyway and the title was therefore incorrect. This is not, however, correct. The clear primary meaning of "Reformed Orthodoxy" is Reformed theology (i.e. Calvinism) in its early-but-mature phase, as in Brill's Companion to Reformed Orthodoxy (2013). Srnec (talk) 04:45, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

I see that Chad The Goatman moved the page recently. Frankly, I'd be happy to see it moved back, but there is no point so long as terms like the present title, Reformed Orthodox, etc. redirect here anyway. The primary meaning of all such terms is Calvinism (or a certain brand of it). Srnec (talk) 04:50, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 12 July 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved (closed by non-admin page mover) DannyS712 (talk) 14:14, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

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Reformed Orthodoxy (Eastern Christianity) → Reformed Eastern Christianity – The term Orthodoxy in the context of Christianity applies to Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches that claim continuous existence from first century AD as well as descent from the Early Church. Their bishops claim apostolic succession within the historical episcopate. The beliefs, practices and traditions of Eastern Orthodox Churches are homogeneous to the extent that they form a single communion with an Ecumenical Patriarchate. In similar lines Oriental Orthodox Churches form a single communion, the distinguishing feature in this case being Miaphysitism and tradition. The various Reformed Eastern Churches that sprang up from mid-nineteenth century onwards, do not share these features. Some of these denominations came into being as a result of Protestant-style reformations of Eastern or Oriental Orthodox beliefs and practices due to Western missionary influence; some others as pre-existing Reformed/Evangelical/Pentecostal denominations adopted elements of Orthodox liturgy and form of worship. None of these Eastern Reformed denominations subscribe to any Orthodox beliefs, practices or sacred traditions that are not in line with Protestant Reformed theology. Hence the distinguishing common feature of these Churches is their Reformed nature and not the usual distinctives of Eastern/Oriental Orthodoxy. Several of these denominations broke away from the historical episcopate and do not maintain episcopal polity, in a Catholic, Orthodox or 'traditional' sense. Furthermore due to varied origins, practices, polities, traditions etc, these denominations themselves do not form a single communion, much like Western Reformed and Protestant Churches. Although these denominations themselves at times, lay claim to 'Orthodoxy', unbiased informed sources refrain from calling them so. For example, the Mar Thoma Church which is in full communion with Anglicans, is defined in the official website of the Anglican Communion (https://www.anglicancommunion.org/ecumenism/churches-in-communion.aspx) as Eastern, Syrian and Reformed, but not Orthodox. Additionally, the term Reformed Orthodoxy has had a very specific meaning since the mid-sixteenth century as the systematized, institutionalized and codified Reformed theology of the period following the Reformation till the late eighteenth century. Hence the inclusion of the term 'Orthodoxy' in the title of this article, is incorrect, misleading and confusing and it must be removed. Due to the aforementioned reasons and for the sake of correctness, neutrality and balance, I also propose that this article which is currently part of the series on Eastern Christianity, be made part of the series on Protestantism too. Macinderum (talk) 13:27, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

• Support as improvement. Srnec (talk) 00:00, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

On wrongly Declaring Reformed Eastern Churches Protestants

I am a member of the Malankara Marthoma Syrian Church which was found by St.Thomas the Holy apostle of Christ.We are purely Orthodox in nature .A Reformation movement took place within the Malankara Church in 1936 which got the Church of social evils like caste system and hindu practices.This movement has got nothing to do with the Protestant Reformation of the 15th century i.e The Marthoma Church is not Protestant but Orthodox. We were raised as Orthodox Christians.how can you then deny us the right to be called Orthodox.It is true that there is no connection or communion between any of the reformed Eastern( Orthodox ) Churches.but we are part of the wider Orthodox Community along with our brothers the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox (Our Mother Church). Please consider

Sebin Prasad Cheriyan Marvallill (talk) 16:18, 1 August 2019 (UTC) Sebin Prasad Cheriyan Marvallill (talk) 16:26, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

• @Sebin Prasad Cheriyan Marvallill: Fanciful claims of all sorts by various Christian denominations, is as old as Christianity itself. In almost all cases these fantastic sounding claims are challenged or rejected by the rest of Christendom and dismissed as nonsensical blether by non-Christians. Now lets discuss the primary source, the official website of the Marthoma church (http://marthoma.in/the-church/heritage/). Describing the heritage of the Marthoma church, it says,

There was a nucleus of people in the church who longed for the removal of unscriptural customs and practices which had crept into the church over the centuries. They envisioned a reformation in the Church in the light of the Gospel of our Lord. There were two outstanding leaders in this group, one was Palakunnathu Abraham Malpan of Maramon (1796-1845) and the other, Kaithayil Geevarghese Malpan of Puthuppally (1800-1855). Both were teachers in the Syrian Seminary (established in AD 1813 by Pulikottil Mar Dionysius) and had opportunities to come into close personal contact with the missionaries and to share their insights regarding the Christian life and the nature and functioning of the Church as depicted in the New Testament and to imbibe the ideas of the Western Reformation. The group led by these two was very much concerned about the need of a revival in the Church.

The founding influence that inspired the reformers was indisputably, Anglican. The reformers imbibed the ideas of reformation, which they later carried out, from the Anglican missionaries. Additionally, this website declares that the Marthoma Church is in full communion with the entire Anglican Communion. It does not mention any communion relationship with any other Christian bodies, except for general ecumenical ties, which all Christian denominations in this day and age, maintain. This claim about communion with Anglicans, is acknowledged in the official website of the Anglican communion (https://www.anglicancommunion.org/ecumenism/churches-in-communion.aspx), which lists the Marthoma church as one of the denominations in communion with it.

Additionally, no credible source on the Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox communions even mentions the Marthoma church at all. This is only because the Marthoma church represents a few minor nineteenth century dissenting movements in Eastern Christianity and is not part of its historic mainstream represented by Eastern and Oriental Orthodox communions as well as the Church of the East. This should make it clear as crystal, to any sane person that the present classification of Marthoma church as Reformed Eastern Christian with Anglican influences is accurate and must not be disrupted.

One thing more..... Your self declaration as the member of the Marthoma denomination, brings with it a conflict of interest and seriously blights you from being perceived as impartial. Silly gimmicks like the one above will only serve to make people laugh. Instead, come up with very good secondary sources by people not directly connected to the subject. Special thanks to @Chad The Goatman: and @Srnec: for reverting disruptions.Macinderum (talk) 07:35, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Dear Macinderum

Marthoma Church of Malabar is one church which is difficult to be fit in to the classification of Reformed Eastern Christians if the yard stick is Reformed Theology and protestant doctrines Because it do not follow any. From your disruptions it is assumed that By reformed eastern churches you mean churches following calvanism or lutheranism. hence marthoma church becomes a misfit here.

The reformation in Malankara started with three demands/requirements

1. Right to worship in mother tongue (malayalam). Syriac was the liturgical language however it was not understood by majority. When Abraham Malpan did kurbana in malayalam along with syriac it was considered a revolt aganist the church . but now all the malankara churches follow Litturgy in malayalam.

2. Removal of prayer for intercession to saints=

The reformers of marthoma faction on the light of their understanding of bible and the faith formulations of first three Ecumenical synods( nicea ,ephesus and constantnople) found that Inter cessation to saints against scripture and orthodox beliefs. Hence replaced those prayers with prayers for communion with saints. ( Many like Macinderum may consider this as a Protestant idea. but it is wrong . The practice of intercession PRAYERS TO SAINT WAS BROUGHT TO MALANKARA by the Synod of Diamper ,similarly prayers for dead in the graveyard, Virgin Mary and her adorations etc). These beliefs were FORCEFULLY  pressurized upon Malankara.

3. Recalling back the antiquity of the St Thomas Church. It was marthoma church who first spoke of Independence and antiquity of the Malankara Throne of St Thomas. (Which was later taken by all major denominations in kerala).

Regarding Communion Relation ships of Marthoma Church. Unlike other churches Marthoma Church holds hand with any denomination that comes forward in name of Christ but at the same time strictly upholds its beliefs.

Marthoma church is not only in Communion with Anglican church and also associates with High Church which follows the catholic practices. It is also in communion with the Malabar Independent Syrian Church which follows Oriental Orthodoxy As that of Syrian Orthodox or Armenian Churches. There is a active and strong dialogue with the Syrian Orthodox Church for Mutual Acceptance and wider communion. both churches have met many times to explain each other their beliefs. Marthoma church is also engaging with the Old Catholic Church for mutual communion.

Wherever possible Marthoma church is associating with the Sui juris MALANKARA RITE AND MALABAR RITE CHURCHES OF ROMAN CATHOLIC.

The founding principles is imbibed from Anglican teachings.

It is only partially correct. Anglican missionaries came to malankara not to interact or engage with Marthoma faction. They came much before . They came as HELP MISSION to malankara church. They build the first seminary Kottayam Theological Seminary (which is now in hands of Malankara Orthodox church) and started to introduce proper theological education to the clergy. It was not known that they ever tried for Anglicanise the Malankara Church but objected many thing which was unscriptural which was disliked by many as it was against their interest.They were tutors and professors in the Seminary till 1836 after both parted ways.The major discontent was not faith related but regarding submission of Church Accounts for audit and getting clergy ordained after seminary education.

Punnathra Gheevarghese mar Dionysious Ordered for a committee to study and report on the non scriptural and unchristian practices followed in the church. The 12 member committee was constituted and they referred many books and bible in detail and reported back. this committee donot have any foriegn or missionery in it .It was at this grouping that Abraham malapan and Kaithayil Gheevarghese malpan Etc came together.They committee had other members too who later drifted to other faction. The untimely demise of Punatthra Metropolitan And comming of new metropolitan who was against change forced Abraham Malpan to start the purification of church (as he called it in his letter to the Maharaja of Travancore and Colonel Fraser).

Marthoma church have never been benefited or in indoctrinated by protestant doctrines. The changes brought in marthoma church was by indigenous group of layman and clergy after prolong and detail study.As official statement from church" Many practices and beliefs marthoma church do not advocate its faith full to follow is not because it is against faith and scripture but such practices and beliefs in the past have led faithfuls to superstitions and unchristian behaviors by driving them away from orthodoxy.

The reformation by marthoma faction forced even its opponent to accept it principles, but much later which makes the opponents now Jacobite church very much reformed as from 1800s like

1. To Pray in Malayalam 2. To claim for Throne of St Thomas 3. To remove statues of saints from Altars which is remnant of Portuguese subjugation. etc etc the list is long ...

The visible difference between Marthoma church and Jacobite church is that  marthoma church donot conduct festivals in name of saints and offer prayers at graveyards. iT IS NOT A PROTESTANT ARM OF JACOBITES. THE STATEMENT IS FUNNY 

Interestingly the Marthoma priests , Thozhiyoor priests, Jacobite and Malankara orthodox priests get their Bachelor of Theological Degree from the same Anglican Theological University in Serampore. And the so called Oriental Orthodoxy till 1965 were called as non chalcdoenians and considered as heretics by eastern orthodox ,Roman Catholics and Anglicans. Historicity of mainframe came to Non Chalcodoenians when faith was revolved from MONOPHYSITE TO A ACCEPTABLE miaphysite.

You may try to enlighten your understanding about Malankara reformation and Marthoma church .. Special thanks to @Sebin Prasad Cheriyan Marvallill: for reverting disruptionsMarthomakunju (talk) 06:38, 5 August 2019 (UTC)Marthomakunju (talk) 06:46, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

We as believers of the Marthoma Church which is an autonomous Oriental church with Syriac traditions and eclectic characteristics in the light of its reformed faith and practices. The church defines itself as "Apostolic in origin, Universal in nature, Biblical in faith, Evangelical in principle, Ecumenical in outlook, Oriental(Eastern or Orthodox) in worship, Democratic in function, and Episcopal in character".hence no outsiders can define the faith of the Malankara Marthoma Syrian Church.besides even Oriental Orthodox Churches like the Syrian Orthodox church and various other Churches accepts our Church nature.

Special thanks to @Marthomakunju:for clearly explaining the nature of our Church.

• I provided sources for my comments. What ever you mentioned amounts only to meaningless drivel, unless you provide verifiable sources. Have you any??? Macinderum (talk) 15:30, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

No Consensus reached here I believe. Mar Thoma Syrian Church cannot be called a Protestant Church. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 22:15, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Article for deletion

See and leave your arguments on: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reformed Eastern Christianity. You are welcome @Srnec:, @Chad The Goatman:, Macinderum (talk) and others. DayakSibiriak (talk) 01:53, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Not a meaning full article.Complicated and is a creation of some Wiki editors. Usage not in prevalence. Chandy of Pakalomattom (talk) 06:58, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Support deletion Chandy of Pakalomattom (talk) 06:58, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

There you are, Chandy of Pakalomattom!! The suspected disruptor to the Mar Thoma Church page from multiple ip's and new user names like 'Sebin Prasad Cheriyan Marvallill' and 'Marthomakunju', who prompted Chad The Goatman to get that page locked down. You were half expected and your presence in support of deletion, reaffirms our suspicions about this deletion nomination.Macinderum (talk) 09:58, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

You got it wrong Mr Macinderum. I dont have other ids. I had to interfere when you religiously started disrupting the Marthoma wiki page and suggesting with new concepts else where Un heardheard. Your action in this page too was objectionable. Wikipedia has ways and means to check whether Sebin prasad or chandy of pakalomattom is the same person.There number of disrupts and vandalism you alone made is much big than edits by me. It is felt that you belong to the Methran faction who is propaganding and projecting Marthoma church as such .However strongly support the deletion of this article as the title itself is a created one without reference anywhere. Interesting fact is that the proposer of the title is Macinderum. Chandy of Pakalomattom (talk) 09:30, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

'Delete' Chandy of Pakalomattom (talk) 09:44, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Page title

The title of this article was previously Protestant Eastern Christianity; I have moved the article to Eastern Protestant Christianity in line with the articles about Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Eastern Catholic Christianity. Note that the word "Eastern" is an adjective of the words "Protestant", "Orthodox", and "Catholic" in all three of these. The former title of this article breaks this standardization. There shouldn't be any issues in light of what I have stated, though if there are, feel free to list them here. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 22:29, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Mar Thoma Syrian Church is an Independent Oriental Church. Please avoid unwanted assumptions.

It is very weird and intersting at the same time to see the Mar Thoma Church as a Protestant Church. In essence Protestantism should be completely a western Church that follows the theological attributes of Luther,Calvin,Zwingli etc or it should be a Church directly under some protestant church. Please forgive my mistakes in the talk page as I am new to wikipedia. I was going through the conversations and quotes that we put by Macinderum, but I doubt any of these words suggests that the Mar Thoma Church is protestant. In my studies I have come to understand the Mar Thoma Church as an Independent Church having an Oriental Orthodox nature and Reformed in Charactar.

The word "Orthodox" is not monotonous or monopolised within Christinaity. Eastern Orthodox Bishop Kallistos Ware explains

Orthodoxy is strict adherence to the earliest teachings within Christendom and the councils of the Church.
— Kallistos Ware

This is the very reason why the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East all claim to be Orthodox as they follow the to the faith formulated in accordance to particular person or era or council.

The word "Oriental" on the other hand is attributed to the Churches that follow Miaphysitism. The Mar Thoma Syrian Church in all its liturgies seems to be holding the Miaphysite Christology as the centre of the liturgy. Mr Abel Joshua Abey, a Marthomite writes the following:

The Mar Thoma Syrian Church of Malabar uses the Antiochian Liturgical forms in her worship. St James Liturgy is mainly used during the Holy Qurbana. St. James liturgy is imbibed with different prayers which captures theological and sociological aspects which has formed over. Throughout our liturgy, we find the Miaphysite definition of Christology.One of the beginning invocatory chants goes as such, "We praise the one who reigns enthroned above, Yet on that blessed lap thou humbly lay". We proclaim that Jesus who reigns the whole universe is the same child who was humbly sitting the Blessed Virgin's lap in real time (same time). A very similar analogy can be seen in one of the Sedra's of the Holy Qurbana where it goes as follows "O Lord of the Universe, before all ages, you were begotten from Your glorious father without the need of a mother and in the fullness of time was incarnate of a Virgin mother without the need of a father". Again we are proclaiming our faith in real time that he Jesus is the very person who is One in essence of the father and at the same time was incarnated as man in human form through the Blessed Virgin Mary.Every Priest during their ordination has to proclaim the very faith in front of the Prelate and the members of the Holy Church. The Amalogia is read during the Ordination services for each person who enters the priesthood. One of the sentences is as follows "You should believe that even when he (Jesus) was in the womb of the Virgin Mary, at the same time he was also present in the right hand of the Father
— Abel Joshua Abey, Humanity and Divinity in Jesus Christ, A Brief Study

I see that you quoted a few of the leaders in the Mar Thoma Church but I certainely believe there is a misrepresentation here. "Reformation" is not static either, Reformation is continuos in all Churches. Late Lamented Paulos Mar Gregorios,an Orthodox bishop of Malankara and who was one of the best intellectuals in Eastern Christianity in one of his article writes the following:

We accept now, and we admitted in the 19th century that we stood in reform, we accepted the help of the CMS missionaries. We have not rejected reform. We are committed in a continuing reformation in the life of the Church
— Paulos Mar Gregorios, Reformation in the Malankara Orthodox Church

.

Just because the Mar Thoma Church has accepted the help of the Anglican Church more than the sister Churches and also has reformed many aspects in doing social and evangelical activities, the missionary zeal etc, I highly doubt if we should use the term protestant. The theology still remains intact as Oriental and faith remains intact as that of the early Church. Alexander Mar Thoma has written the following to the Holy Episcopal Synod.

The first sentence goes as follows " You shall live your life in Orthodoxy, and you shall never bring any change to the Dogma's and Doctrines established by Synods of Niccea, Constantinople and Ephesus.
— Alexander Mar Thoma, Stathikon

Alexander Mar Thoma's succesor, Philipose Mar Chrysostom also writes the following in his book mission in the market place

Marthoma Church in its Tradition is an Orthodox Church.We were Orthodox even before the missionaries came.Every foriegn bishop who came to Malankara were Orthodox.There was only on Orthodox Tradition in Malankara.
— Philipose Mar Chrysostom Mar Thoma, Mission in the market place

The quote by Juhanon Mar Thoma is again misinterpreted. He does not deny that all of Malankara Church has been influenced by Protestants over the years, and certain aspects were taken or borrowed from the Protestants in the way of doing things, such as spreading the gospel, uplifting the society. Quoting Juhanon Mar Thoma from his book "Memories and Notes".

I urge you all to read the writings of the Eastern Fathers and studiy the Eastern Oriental theology, our appreciation of ourChurch and the worship service would have been greatly enhanced. Some people may claim,there is no meaning in our worship but that is because they have not studied the Oriental theology. Our worship lifts the earthly worshipping community to join the heavenly worshipping community. The Symbolisations and actions used in our worship enriches the body, mind and soul of the worshipping community. When we understand this,our worship services becomes more beautiful and meaningful
— Juahnon Mar Thoma, Memories and Notes

The quote that from the book "The Eucharistic Liturgy" should not be misinterpreted. It is important that the introduction by the Priest Fr Jameson must also be read in a careful manner.

The Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church exists as a hybrid church by blending the Eastern liturgical elements of the Oriental Orthodox Church and the evangelical ideas of the Protestant Reformation of the sixteenth century. The reformation in the Malankara Church (1836) instigated a new impetus for this church in constructing an ecclesial identity and pattern of mission. A major missiological imperative employed by CMS missionaries in India was solely centered on the scripture. Against this popular understanding, the Mar Thoma Church, through its reformation process showed that liturgy can also be an imperative for mission. The translation and revision of the Eucharistic liturgy is the basic visible expression of reformation in the Malankara Church. Hence, this book explicitly places how the Eucharistic liturgy of the Mar Thoma Church is observed as the foundation for mission in its course of growth. In order to accomplish this objective, the writer has examined the historical evolution and the developmental process of the Eucharistic liturgy of the church, which is a revised version of the liturgy of St. James. In a nutshell, this study is an appraisal of various missiological themes reflected in the Eucharistic liturgy of the church. This study throws ample light on how the Mar Thoma Church integrated liturgy and evangelism in its course of development. The writer systematically illustrates how the church made a serious effort to bring missional themes employed in the liturgy into the practical realm by its ancillary organizations, convention gatherings, and sociocharitable works. This volume asserts that an emphasis on Eucharist-centred ecclesiology guides and motivates the church to enliven a mission-oriented life, which is crucial for accomplishing a relevant mission
— Rev Fr Jameson, The Eucharistic Liturgy,A liturgical foundation for mission in the Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church

The Anglican Arch Bishop of Perth, in the official magazine and website of the Diocese of Perth writes the following :

The Mar Thoma Church traces its history as an Oriental Orthodox and is understood as one of the oldest churches in Asia, claiming St.Thomas as its founder in 52 AD
— Kay Goldsworthy, Anglican Diocese of Perth website

The International Syriac Institute Beth Mardutho refers the following about the Mar Thoma Syrian Church

Thoziyoor bishops have actively participated at every Mar Thoma consecration thus enabling the Church to remain in its Oriental Orthodox Heritage. The form of Church worship remain unmistakebly Syriac Orthodox. The vestments,church furnishings,chanting,use of incense,general dynamics of worship mark it as a Church in the Oriental Orthodox Tradition
— Beth Mardutho Syriac Instiute

I hope I would like to change the following User:EdJohnston User:Veverve Classification as Independent Oriental Orthodox, Orientation as Syrian, Theology as Miaphysite, Nature as Orthodox and Charactar as Reformed. I would not want to randomly edit, hence took the time to write this whole thing. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 22:20, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

See the discussion here. 22:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC)Veverve (talk)

@Ververve I saw the discussion, too poor statements from the pther side. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 04:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Let the discussion continue here. No need of disjoined conversations on the the same subject in multiple locations.--Macinderum (talk) 14:02, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I been endlessly having "conversation" with very but some similar users over the last two years now, with the same claim that this unique St. Thomas Syrian Church is just still another [independent] Oriental Orthodox Church, despite its later history, its official website, its clearly only schismatic sect from them who is self-describing this type of identity (an St. Thomas Oriental Evangelical [and Eastern Protestant] Church), and even its previous few leaders has describing their Church's identity to as an 'Oriental Protestant' Church. Plus two of your quotes is unironically not defending your argument, when its clearly accepting that the current identity of the Church is culturally Easter (Syrian) Christian while theologically or caring elements of a Western Protestant-like Church. Like its no misinterpreted anything, but you folk are just only the ones who keep badly or ignorantly misinterpreted its later history and current identity. And I just want to stop caring about this too much; but no, you folk are just keep offending for nothing by this point. Chad The Goatman (talk) 18:38, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Request again to remove the Mar Thoma Church from this list.

Please do note that every single other Church mentioned here have direct doctrines adopted from western church such as the Solas, evangelical theology, calvinistic, zwinglisanism, Lutheran theological formulas have been adopted and accepted.

However the Mar Thoma Church has not adopted any form of western theology into the teachings of the Church. Yes the Mar Thoma Church has a reformed understanding, however it is not related to Protestantism, rather a renewal of the culturally and Hinduised ancient Malankara Church. The 24 elements of reform kept forward by the reformer Abraham Malpan has been completely adopted by the Oriental Orthodox Churches as well.

Even in terms of Intercession to Saints and Prayer for the dead, Mar Thoma Church has not stated it as wrong, individuals within the Church have the freedom to follow it, however as a Church communication to a different dimension is seen as a mystery.

The Mar Thoma Church is a unique Oriental Church and that is why the Mar Thoma Church is considered as a seperate Ecclesiastical Tradition/Family in the World Council of Churches. If the Church was "Protestant", it would have been alloted into "Reformed"/"Anglican" families. The central commitee of the WCC, consisting of Oriental Orthodox reps, Catholic reps,Eastern Orthodox reps, Protestant Reps unanimously agreed that the Mar Thoma Church must be a seperate Ecclesiastical tradition of it own, similar to that of the Church of the East. You may refer the Handbook of Churches released by the WCC, or the WCC website, Church Families. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 16:34, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

This has already been discussed and settled here, with the help of many reliable published sources. Wikipedia:Consensus is that, the Mar Thoma Church is an Oriental Protestant denomination, that combines Protestant theology with the liturgical West Syriac Rite. No need of disjoined conversations about the same subject, in multiple locations.--Macinderum (talk) 08:24, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

I believe Wikipedia allows consensus to change as well according new facts and aspects found. I mentioned something new, all the other Churches mentioned here have directly adopted Protestant theological aspects while the Mar Thoma Church has not in any sense.

Plus I doubt you have any authority to stop a discussion just because you disagree with it. The purpose of an article's talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article. Randomscholar1996 (talk) 13:43, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

May I know who are you to stop the discussion done in wikipedia. On what ground?User:Macinderum Abin jv (talk) 16:29, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Strongly objecting Addition of Mar Thoma Church

Mar Thoma Church is not following any of the Protestant Theologies. It is evident that some of the prominent editors of the Malankara Church related articles either belongs to Orthodox faction who have vested interests in adding their propaganda to the articles. Even after quoting reference from World Council of Churches the highese ecumenical body for all the Non Catholic Chuches in the world, they are not ready to accept the fact. Im seeking help from some other senior Editors/Moderators/Sysops to intervene in this problem. -Abin jv (talk) 16:27, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

"Propaganda"? I'm really sorry, you users can't accept that the English sources wrote differently, instead what (I assumed to be biased or misinformed) sources you (and other users) got from, especially doesn't help that your country, India, have over 5 to 10-15 separate languages, which either confused or mud this topic further or that the official website of that denomination has and still is confirmed, that their church doesn't see itself as fully Oriental Orthodox (wither being having communion with their Churches or not). But, does vaguely self-described as a Oriental Protestant, instead.

Also, I gonna reminded your page, Marthoma Family of Churches has voted to be another redirect for the Saint Thomas Christian denominations, despite your intentions.

Plus, I'm ex-Christian since my early teens, but as a independent Hellenist who occasionally (formerly majorly) interest on Eastern Christianity, mostly on the Eastern [Catholic] Orthodox Church in the past four-few years. Chad The Goatman (talk) 20:48, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Your latest crusade was stamped out when your weak WCC source, as well as the article Marthoma Family of Churches which you created based on that source, were dismissed during this archived discussion. As a result, your article Marthoma Family of Churches was converted to a mere redirect to all Saint Thomas Christian denominations. Instead of tabling the same old nonarguments, try something else. Bring independent, reliably published sources; mind you, all scholarly English language sources say that the Mar Thoma church is a hybrid denomination, born out of an reformation of Oriental Orthodoxy on Anglican lines, and combines Protestant theology with a reformed variant of the West Syriac Rite. The Mar Thoma Church is a classic example of Oriental Protestantism.--Macinderum (talk) 10:28, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Sadly this is the problem with Wikipedia. Anyone can spew nonsense. Mar Thoma Church does not follow any protestant theologies. Time and time again, this has been refuted using strong sources. Sadly certain people won't agree, or as user Abin mentioned, there is a strong propaganda going one. Randomscholar1996 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:18, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Can User Chad The Goatman enlighten me as to why WCC source is not strong? Being the official voice of all the largest and main Churches in Christianity and having close work with the Pontifical Council of Ecumenical Relations, why is the WCC source considered weak. Even in the WCC Handbook of denominations Mar Thoma Church is considered a seperate Family of its own. The WCC puts together the voices of all Protestant and Orthodox denominations.Randomscholar1996 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:24, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Nope; you never produced readily verifiable, reliable sources to support your claims. The third-rate materials you cited, were always dubious, questionable and most untrustworthy. That's the reason why, your nonarguments failed to gain any traction, here at Wikipedia.

The weakness of your WCC source has already been exposed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marthoma Family of Churches. In that discussion, you will also find examples of reliably published, scholarly sources; which unlike the WCC, do not merely report the self-proclaimed assertions of its member churches. All those sources, classify the Mar Thoma Church as Anglican/Protestant. As a result, your WCC source, as well as the article Marthoma Family of Churches, which was created based on that source, were dismissed and the article converted to a redirect to all Saint Thomas Christian denominations.

Additionally, if one examines the most detailed WCC article on the Mar Thoma Church (this one), one would find that the WCC's statements about that church, is not significantly at variance with other sources. That WCC article explains how the British Anglicans assisted the ancient Syrian church of India in its theological formation, and how a faction of Reformists subsequently reformed the Syrian church, based on the bible. That WCC article explicitly says that the newly formed Reformed section of the Syrian Church, later became the Mar Thoma Church. In other words, the WCC terminology Renewed Oriental=Reformed Oriental=Protestant Oriental.

Moreover, the communion relationships maintained by a church, speaks volumes about its nature and identity. This WCC article also says that the Mar Thoma Syrian Church is in full communion with the entire Anglican Communion, with special relationships with the Protestant Episcopal Church of the US, Anglican Church of Canada, Anglican Church of Australia and the Uniting Church in Australia. It also talks about a conciliar union with the Church of South India and the Church of North India. It is specially noteworthy that all of MTSC's communicant partners are either Mainline Protestant or United Protestant churches. What's more, the Mar Thoma Syrian Church says in its official response to the Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry document of the WCC, that the MTSC has absolutely no theological impediments to ordaining women into priesthood, just like other mainline Protestant churches (verifiable here on page 12). To conclude, even as per the WCC, the Mar Thoma Church is an Oriental Protestant Church.

Reality being so, I fail to see why a few editors are making such a fuss about a one-off, lone WCC source. Even if we assume the for the sake of argument that the MTSC belongs to a family of its own, it is obvious from a plethora of reliable sources, that this so-called family, comes under the larger branch of Protestantism.--Macinderum (talk) 06:14, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Please go and enlighten yourself about the Reformation happened in Malankara Church before making vague statements. Your formula of Reform=Protestant makes no sense. I can cite hundreds of sources from the church hierarchs stating that the reformation movement in Malankara was more of a purification movement which tried to eliminate the practices which were against the canon of syriac church and bible. Can somebody call Malankara Church a protestant church because it protested against Catholic Church through Coonan Cross oath. Or a Oriental nestorian church because it followed Nestorian traditions before jacobites came here in Malankara!! Seems nonsense. Abin jv (talk) 07:16, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Atleast can you enlighten me what is the so called Protestant Theology which Mar Thoma Church follows?. Having a communion with Protestant churches make somebody protestant?. If so, can you call Malabar Independent Syrian Church an Oriental Protestant church as well?!! Abin jv (talk) 07:42, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Enlighten you? Really? I see that you started on Wikipedia well before I did. So, why are you not indenting your comments properly? Why can't you enlighten yourself, by carefully examining the sources in articles Mar Thoma Syrian Church and Eastern Protestant Christianity? Anyways, for your benefit and for the benefit of anyone else who might be interested, I will lay out the Protestant elements within the Mar Thoma church, in a separate section.--Macinderum (talk) 09:13, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Protestant aspects of the Mar Thoma Syrian Church

Page 568 of the book Eastern Christianity and Politics in the Twenty-First Century (2014), authored by several scholars and published by Taylor & Francis, says this about the origins of the MTSC:

The Syrian Orthodox also became the target of Anglican missionary activity, as a result of which the Mar Thoma Church separated from the Orthodox in 1874, adopting the Anglican confession of faith and a reformed Syrian liturgy conforming to Protestant principles.

The Protestant aspects of the MTSC are already listed here, in the sections on Principal reforms and Doctrinal positions, within the article Mar Thoma Syrian Church. That content, which is substantiated by many reliably published, independent, scholarly sources, is explained below.

As a result of the influence of Anglican missionaries on the Mar Thoma founders (Reformers) who were under British colonial rule, the MTSC accepts the Protestant solas, viz. Justification by Faith Alone, Salvation by Grace Alone and Sole Mediation of Christ. MTSC's theology and doctrines is completely based on the Bible and the Nicene Creed (Sola scriptura or atleast Prima scriptura like Anglicans). This is not in line with the teachings of the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Churches, whose faith and doctrines are founded on Sacred tradition, and the Bible received through that tradition.

In keeping with Protestant theology, the MTSC does not hold the doctrine of Intercession of saints and Mary, mother of Jesus. The MTSC does not believe in Prayers for the dead, either. In this church confession is general; not auricular and private. Images, icons, statues, Christian relics etc., aren't venerated or used in worship by the MTSC, as it is considered idolatry. In all these, the MTSC follows Protestant beliefs and practices, which are obviously at variance with those of Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian churches. The book The Eucharistic Liturgy: A Liturgical Foundation for Mission in the Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church (2017), by Mar Thoma priest Jameson K Pallikunnil, in page 94, says the following about Mar Thoma liturgy:

Another major change was that prayers for the departed souls and Saints were removed from the liturgy and considers praying for the dead and praying to the Blessed Virgin Mary and to Saints are opposed to the canon and Scripture. The Church does not validate the practice of seeking the intercession of Saints for lack of biblical reference.

The famous book The Lesser Eastern Churches (1913) by Adrian Fortescue, in page 374 reads,

The Reformers calls themselves the “Mar Thomas Christians”. They are considerably Protestantized. They have no images, denounce the idea of the Eucharistic sacrifice, pray neither to the saints nor for the dead, and use the vernacular (Malayalam) for their services…If only we knew what the views of the Church of England in matters of faith are, it would be easier to estimate those of the Mar Thomas Christians.

The MTSC also adopted the Protestant interpretation of the Priesthood of all believers and emphasizes generic priesthood in its doctrines and liturgy. This church does not recognize priestly mediation, and the priest is viewed as a mere representative of the people. Quoting again from the book The Eucharistic Liturgy: A Liturgical Foundation for Mission in the Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church (2017), by Mar Thoma priest Jameson K Pallikunnil,

The reformation in the Malankara Church had several elements of the protestant reformation that took place in the 16th century in Europe under the leadership of Martin Luther...A recovery of the Lutheran maxim of the "priesthood of all believers" and the reclamation of the Christian vocation as the task of the whole Church, signalled a re-alignment of the nature of the ministry and mission. The ministry was no longer solely equated with the activities of the clergy, but rather became something exercised by the whole people of God, in the Church and the world.(pages 42-43) The office of the priesthood: The role of the priest was accepted as a representative of the people, before God. An emphasis on the priesthood of all believers (the general priesthood) was give more importance in the liturgy.(pages 83-84) In the case of priesthood, the Church believes that the priest is only the representative of the people. The Church affirms the priesthood of the laity and believes that Christ alone is the mediator.(page 94) Regarding the priesthood, the Church believes that the celebrant is a representative of the people and affirms that Christ alone is the mediator. This Church does not recognize the “priestly mediation”.(pages 96-97)

Like other Protestant churches, the MTSC does not subscribe to the concept of Eucharistic Sacrifice, in deviation from the doctrines of Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox churches and Assyrian churches. Anyone who wants more proof for the above mentioned facts, may go here and verify the cited sources. Furthermore, the Mar Thoma Church is in full communion with the entire Anglican Communion. I hope this would help any impartial editor or reader, to understand that the MTSC is markedly Protestant in its theology and doctrines.--Macinderum (talk) 09:36, 28 June 2022 (UTC)