Talk:Malik Ata Muhammad Khan

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education section

Malik Ata did LLB from Oxford University England as they have mentioned in their website.I have put the reference...thanks--Malik Amin (talk) 06:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This information that you give as 'reference' is taken from Malik Ata's own website and doesnt really constitute proof of his having done any such degree course. Please give /cite a more reliable source, or scan and give a copy of his degree here. Thanks 39.54.10.247 (talk) 06:56, 7 October 2013 (UTC)Hilda Khan[reply]

Further, by the way, the second source that you cite www.pakpassion.net, is a cricketing site, and the note on Malik Ata given there is in fact culled from this existing Wikipedia article-- you CANNOT cite this page/article as a reference for itself, please! Thats highly dishonest. 39.54.10.247 (talk) 07:06, 7 October 2013 (UTC)Hilda Khan[reply]

Hilda Khan i always put valid and accurate information on this article.plz firstly log in on wikipedia and participate here.. --Malik Amin (talk) 04:33, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

facts about public image

please donot change the facts i have written in the "Public image" section.these are not written on internet.I have collected them from Malik Sahib and his friends. These are true and there is no clash of the ideas there..regards--Malik Amin (talk) 05:29, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Im sorry but these dont consitute a legitimate and reliable source for citation/reference. Please add only that material which is reliabley sources, thanks 39.54.10.247 (talk) 06:57, 7 October 2013 (UTC)Hilda Khan[reply]

Clarification about the age

There is no such material is available about his age on internet. So I met Malik Ata personally and asked about the age and he told me about it. He also gave me other information. "The last of the dinosaurs" is used by him to define himself so I wrote it down on the main page....thanks--Malik Amin (talk) 16:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Factual Inaccuracy

Dear Sirs There is no 'Prince' Malik Atta Muhammad Khan, to the best of my knowledge as a former university professor of 37 years' service in North Punjab, including Attock district; the only person who has a similar name is 'Malik Atta Muhammad Khan', Chief or Sardar of village Kot Fateh Khan, and he is not an Awan but a chief of the Gheba tribe, as anyone can tell you. Asad U Khwaja (Prof Retd)39.54.104.201 (talk) 19:27, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification

dear Asad bhai.! Malik Sahab has a title "Prince" given by his friends living around the world and he is known as Prince Malik Ata Muhammad Khan all over the world that's why I gave my page this name.The picture I have uploaded is very famous among his friends.Please restore it to its previous name (Prince Malik Ata Muhammad Khan).There is a page on Facebook about Malik Sahab as well organised by his friends.I also started this page on Wikipedia.Because of his relationships with Awan family he is also known as Awan around the world.He is also known as Nawab of Kot Fateh Khan instead of Chief of Kot Fateh Khan that's why I have used the word "Nawab" Please add more information about Malik Sahab...Regards Malik Amin Khan. I am also waiting for other Wikipedia users to please update and add more information about Malik Ata.thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Malik amin khan (talk • contribs) 06:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Mr Amin, thank you for your note. However, if you dont mind, please, no one can just 'give' you a title of 'Prince', friends or not-- and if it's a nickname then please indicate this, thanks. The title of 'Nawab' was only given to his great-grandfather by the British Indian government as a Personal Title, Notas a family title in perpetuity, so it's not usable in this manner e.g like the titles used by various other Indian noble and princely families (pl see various Punjab gazetteers and district reports on Attock and Rawalpindi etc, c 1880s to 1940s)and Chief (Sardar) is the proper form or title. I hope that this helps clarify the exact format/situation for you malik sahib. best regs, 39.54.82.233 (talk) 23:37, 29 February 2012 (UTC)Prof (r) Asad U Khwaja[reply]

No proper link/refs are given to the Michael Palin article/ref cited here nor to the BBC link/documentary. There is a def need to (a) improve refs/citations and (b) basic language. Also, why does someone keep on insisting on the subject's 'Awan' (tribal) links? He is essentially from the Gheba Rajput tribe of Northern Punjab, with some relations to the Awans, and other castes and clans via his elders' marriages. 39.54.82.233 (talk) 23:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)Prof Asad U Khwaja[reply]

hi,I'm surprised who the person have deleted some facts added by me on 5/2/12, considering them self published source and information and what soever.While the reality is that Malik Ata Muhammad Khan don't added it himself.He even don't know about this page and his fan page on Facebook also.These pages are administered by his fans/friends.Its the reality that he was subject to a documentary of BBC although not having a proper source yet its there on Youtube.Every one can see it.Even its his distinctive excellence that he represents Pakistan in international championships along with his friends on their own expenditure and government don't support them at all and I think there should not be any objection to describe his qualities that are rare in their kind.Because the only purpose of this page to tell people more and more about Malik Sahab instead of bragging about him...thanks I hope u will restore in its original ...waiting for your reply....regards Malik Amin — Preceding unsigned comment added by Malik amin khan (talk • contribs) 11:15, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

hi dear i have added the source of the link "One man and his horse" and i think BBC has removed from their site as it is too old documentary but this source is valid..thanks and please let me allow to add some rare qualities of Malik Ata.And please don't blame me.I am handling it with a neutral view..thanks regard Malik Amin Khan — Preceding unsigned comment added by Malik amin khan (talk • contribs) 15:33, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

this is a good effort to start a page of such a nice and great personality..please add some information about Prince Malik Ata — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mansab khan (talk • contribs) 10:39, 6 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Further correction

Sir Asad Khawaja sab and Other please for all of your kind information,Malik Atta muhammad Khan belong to Rajput Jodhra tribe of Pindigheb from his Father side and his mother belong to Mughal Gheba tribe of Fateh jang.The Rajput Jodhra Tribe Uses the Title Of Malik and Mughal Gheba Tribe uses the Title Of Sirdar.And further more The Village Of Kot Fateh khan is the Jagir of Mughal Ghebas, and Sardar sir Muhammad Nawaz khan are one of them. Who is the Maternal Grand Father of Malik Atta.There are Four main/major land owning Tribes in Fateh jang and Pindegheb. (1)The Mughal Ghebas,(2) Rajputs Jodhras,(3)Rajput Alpials,and (4)Khattars.The Ghebas having 50 villages in Fatehjang Tehsil i.e Kot Fateh khan, Dhurnal, shahr Rai Saidullah, Dhari Rai ditta, and Malal.etc.And Also 20 villages in Pindigheb and Rawalpindi area touching The boundries of Fatehjang.

I have been following this discussion for some time, and to the best of my knowledge, and experience spread over 50 plus years, and belonging to the Attock area, (a) the Jodhras are a separate Rajput tribe, probably allied or linked by blood ties to the Ghebas (also of Rajput origins) and (b) there is no such tribe as 'Gheba Mughal'! I wonder where this idea sprung from? As to Mailk Atta of Kot I agree that he is a fine horseman and sportasman who has brought much honour to the country-- but what does that have to do with his pedigree or origins?! Im sure a Rajput is as capable of serving his nation as a Mughal! Regards Col (retd) Malik Mumtaz Khan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.54.99.202 (talk) 04:42, 19 August 2012 (UTC) Sir col(r) Malik Mumtaz sab Assalam O Alekum. And All of them who are interested in reading this topic. Sir I respect ur age ,experience and Knowledge of Upto long span of 50 years,but here The First and formost thing I would like to clear or tel u that we should al Remember and accept that no one has complete knowlege of any thing.And Man learns in every second of life. Any how I think u dont have Enough Knowlege about The Attock district Culture and people. So came To Fatehjang and get This Knowlege Practicaly. As far as The Ghebas Are Consernd ,they Are The Royal Mughals Tribe.As I told U early The Sardar's Of Fatehjang are All Mughal Ghebas. actualy Here in The Northern Punjab First Caste Then Tribe Name Comes and That is acording To Isam and Quran. As in Quran that"we made The Nation or caste and Tribes and Clans". So first Qum then Qabila and the last Khandaan names comes. like here In Fateh jang and Pindigheb .Mughal (caste)Gheba(tribe) and further every Mughal Gheba has his clan. And like Rajput Jodhras ,rajput(caste)Jodhra(tribe). So keep Learning. One thing more tel me ur email and Tel me Where from u belong.?? And where u hav spent 50years.?? Thanks By[reply]

finaly i advise u sir as u said that u are a col . So kindly Read Only 1 book and That is Punjabi Musalman. If so Any Thing else than i Shall sugest u More books Related to History.(Gsksari (talk) 05:17, 8 December 2012 (UTC))[reply]

Clarification about references

I have put the references.These are valid but I could not understand how to add a website's reference that has the address without https and www so they may not open by clicking but they are valid...please check it......thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Malik amin khan (talk • contribs) 12:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fictitious information

Please dont add fictitious information here such as names and titles that dont exist for the person or subject eg 'Nawab' , 'Prince' etc. The gentleman is Malik Ata Muhammad Khan, and thats that. Thanks. 39.54.47.99 (talk) 06:11, 14 August 2013 (UTC)Hilda Khan[reply]

Once more, some fictitious information is given here which i have removed-- its stated that Malik Ata's maternal grandfather was Sir Shahnawaz Khan, of Kot Fateh Khan village in Attock district; yet that his 'maternal uncle' was Malik Amir Muhammad Khan of Kalabagh in Mianwali district. How can that be? It is true that Sir Shahnawaz Khan was his maternal grandfather but Malik Amir Muhammad of Kalabagh was certainly NOT his son! Whats going on? 39.54.10.247 (talk) 07:01, 7 October 2013 (UTC)Hilda Khan[reply]

Clarification about the article

thanks Hilda Khan.firstly log in on wikipedia and then do anything and do sign it.. i again request if u dont have sufficent knowledge about the person or thing then plz dont reject the edits made by others here on wikipedia and Malik Ata is the current Nawab or Sardar of Kot Fateh Khan. Prince is his title and he is known as Prince Malik Ata and Prince Malik aroud the world..........and ......his maternal grandfather is Sir Muhammad Nawaz Khan not Shahnawaz Khan.it is written in the article if u have seen it.....hope u dont mind.....and...anyone from maternal family can be a maternal uncle whether he is lives in the same village or an other...hope u understand it if u live in Pakistani society.. so if u dont mind plz donot put citation needed and donot remove the information about Malik Ata.i always put the valid information with a neutral point of view.if u have any doubt plz meet Malik Ata personally..i hope ur doubt will be clear..i can arrange a meeting for it..regards --Malik Amin (talk) 04:33, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Malik Amin Its my privilege if I log into Wikipedia or not--and Im also a Pakistani, albeit a Christian, is that so strange for you? In any case, whatever the name of Malik Ata's uncle, the same is not the son of Malik Amir Muhammad Khan of Kalabagh, so you need to clarify this--if Malik Amir is his grandfather indeed then the Nawaz chap cant be his maternal uncle. Also, there is no such title as 'prince' Im sorry, maybe thats a delusion, my family belongs to Attock area from British times when my late great great grandfather came from Bombay in 1887 with the British artillery and settled here; I know all the details of the main Attock families. The Kot Fateh Khan family are Maliks and are sometimes also addressed as 'Sardar' (chiefs) but I once again inform you that there is NO such official/formal title as you pretend. I also took my MA degree in South Asian history (which I teach at a military college) and specialized in history of North Punjab, so I think I can speak with a fair degree of authority on this matter. I would strongly urge you to please stop adding biased and prejudiced/slanted perspectives without any real basis, thanks. 39.54.76.184 (talk) 13:34, 16 October 2013 (UTC)Hilda Khan.[reply]

Hilda Khan..thanks for ur reply plz donot abuse and blame me.I always put the valid information. Inspite of understanding you are mixing up the things about his family members ie uncles etc.As i said i can arrange a meeting with Malik Ata for ur satisfaction. for ur kind informationa in the beginning after starting the article i only introduced Malik Ata and then left it for others to contribute here but nobody wrote even a single line may be due to lack of information about him. Unfortunatly there is lack of information on internet. But when i started editing it, to my surprise many persons raised questions and some blamed me as well but i donot mind.

kotfatehkhan.pk site is not maintained by him. It is another person who made it and also added some wrong information there. So i met Malik Ata personaly and asked few questions and he gave me information. I contacted his friends and some foreigners too, they also gave many information specially about the work and efforts of Malik Ata in the field of tent pegging and other cultural activities and after confirmation from many persons i add it here. it is true that information regarding Malik Ata looks to be fictitious to a person having little information as in the present era no body can expect to a person doing such a great work for the country who travels and represents Pakistan alongwith his friends in the world tent pegging championships and bears the expenditures from his own pockets since 1960s and travels around the world in Pakistani dress with a turban.

All the international organisations and persons attached with tent pegging, use HRH or His Royal Highness with his name when they call him or mention it on their sites. It is beacuse of his respect and his family's position in the area as they have been ruling the area for centuries.

Prince Malik is his title which is also given by his friends living around the world. He is known as Prince Malik Ata or Prince Malik around the world. When they contact on his facebook page they use the same words so i have written HRH and Prince Malik here in the article. I didnot ask Malik Ata about it.

Nice to read that u r from Attock and MA in history but if u dont mind living in Attock or having Masters degree in history doesnot mean that one have all the knowledge about a specific person or thing. I have many friends from Attock who know nothing about Malik Ata. I respect ur views but plz donot blame or abuse me its not a good thing...regards..

if u want any information plz inbox on Malik Ata's page on Facebook..https://www.facebook.com/pages/Prince-Malik-Ata-Muhammad-Khan/106146302795298. regards--Malik Amin (talk) 14:29, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Amin, hallo. I have added tags asking for citations/refs where needed, as i still feel that this article has a lot of work to be done on it and it is neither properly writen nor referenced. You make a lot of claims but you dont verify each and every one with refs. I would strongly advise you to do so please, I assume good faith on your part and hope you will be more serious in improving this article. It could be better if it was reduced in size and made better generally, thanks. 39.54.14.53 (talk) 20:30, 3 September 2014 (UTC)Hilda Khan[reply]

By the way, I dont see how and where I 'blame' you or 'abuse' you? How have you come to that conclusion please? Could you cite any instance above where I have done so? Please dont make fictitious accusations. Thanks. 39.54.14.53 (talk) 20:32, 3 September 2014 (UTC)Hilda Khan[reply]

Malik Amin, I have again removed your addition of 'Prince' as a title to Malik Atta--sorry but thats just not true or realistic, is it? If you wish to indicate that this word 'Prince' is a nickname or some sort of similar appendage, then put it in inverted commas like this, 'Prince' Malik Atta Muhammad Khan etc. I hope thats clear please? Also, I am sorry but I had to remove some of your unreliable citations/references. Please, I think you MUST familiarise yourself with the standards on Wikipedia, now. You cant just go on editing at random. Among the unacceptable sites/links not to be cited as references here, are (a) sites that promote 'puffery' and self-promotion by individuals, tribes, families etc, or similar privately maintained sites like this 'Kot Fateh Khan' site and so on; and (b) unreliable and unofficial sites of a commercial nature, which have or are publishing and/or reproducing fallacious and dubious material, without some proper scholarly/academic or similar authoritative weightage eg sites like this 'chiefa coins' etc. I would strongly recommend that you please, spend some time just checking citations/references details and procedures in the 'Help' and 'How to Edit Wikipedia' sections, given above. That will clarify for you what sort of sources are recommended and needed here,thanks. I hope you will not take this advice and guidance in the wrong spirit but use this opportunity to learn and develop and make good use of the skills that you will eventually acquire i.a. Good wishes, AsadUK200 (talk) 21:33, 7 September 2014 (UTC)AsadUK200[reply]

thanks Asad Sb i respect ur suggestions. thanks for guiding..actually kotfatehkhan.pk site is not maintained by Malik Ata or his close family members. It is made by someone other.as i confirmed. I know this site has some wrong information as well but i only add its reference here which i personally know that this onfo is correct and can be added as i contacted many of my friends from Attock who have lot knowledge about Malik Ata's family. like the purchase of plot for Pakistan embassy's in France as lot of people have confirmed it. One of my father's friend's uncle was close friend to Sardar Sir Muhammad Nawaz Khan, he also told this to his family that this building was donated by Sardar Muhammad Nawaz. but beside my best efforts i could not find any piece of info about it on any site except kotfatehkhan.pk..So i used this reference as the information is correct. and the edits regarding Malik Ata's educational qualification are valid as his class fellows confirmed. He got education from Aitchison, FC college and Oxford but again i could find any source except kotfatehkhan.pk site. so i added this for reference. Sir aal of us know ver well that Nawab of Kala bagh was governor of west Pakistan during 1960 and 1966. So here was just need a reference to make it compatible according to wikipedia requirments thatwhy i used chiefa coins site as a source. But i will try to find any other source.regards

Basic thing is Malik Ata doesnt like to highlight and barrage about his work, achievements etc himself.. thatswhy we can not find much information about him on any website specially personal info like family background, education and work regarding tent pegging. Its other people who add things on different sites on their own. Even he doesnt like to highlight his work through facebook pages. I personally met him on various occasions, his view is that "I do all for my country that there should be its name among the other countries on various equestrian and tent pegging events and I have no need to highlight myself". Even his friend Sardar Sarpartap Singh once told that when the International Tent Pegging Federation was formed in India they tried to make Malik Ata as president of the organisation due to his great work for the sport. But he strictly refuse and ask to choose someone other but after their much insisting he agreed. Although we can now have lot of things about his work for tent pegging on internet but no such material is available regarding his education. So i think we can add kotfatehkhan.pk for reference right now when i find some other source will difinitily add it there...regards--Malik Amin (talk) 15:59, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Further to the above

Further to the above, I would also strongly recommend dear Amin, that you dont just give bare URLs as citations/refs, please fix these thanks. I think that the latter portion of this article relating to Malik Atta's tentpegging and sports activities, is much better and reliably referenced, it would be a pity if this is wasted via Bare URL citations, that are easily corrupted.AsadUK200 (talk) 21:51, 7 September 2014 (UTC)AsadUK200[reply]

sure sir will do it in few days..regards--Malik Amin (talk) 15:59, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You are welcome, I have also seen your above longer note and ok, I also understand your point of view. Best wishes. AsadUK200 (talk) 18:16, 9 September 2014 (UTC)AsadUK200[reply]

thank you Sir i want to re add those references and "popularly known as Prince Malik Ata" as well. as he is known as Prince Malik or Prince Malik Ata around the world. This can be seen on all the sites regarding tent pegging and majority of the international tent peggers call him with this name so it is necessary to add it so that whenever they check the article, will easily understand about it. ...regards--Malik Amin (talk) 08:30, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually there is only one picture of Malik Ata's father is available on his fan page that was shared by Malik Lal Khan Sahib from pindi gheb so I used that for reference. Besides this there is no other pictures or information is available on internet..regards--Malik Amin (talk) 08:51, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User Amin, hello, I hope you will take this in the right and positive spirit and try to think about this carefully, and not just react--I have today again removed some unaccepable sources/refs eg Facebook and private self-sponsored website of some Kot Fathe Khan people, which are both equally spurious please. ONLY add reliable and acceptable references, as per Wikipedia guidelines (see Help section) ok. Also, this article is very poorly referenced there are many statements made that are not borne out by reliable referencing. If any statement is not referenced, or you dont have adequate and acceptable references/citations available then please remove that statement, hope that is clear please? If you really want to make this into a proper article, then you must try to follow regulations as per Wikipedia guidelines, not just react and keep on returning to the same old information and dubious sources. Thanks 39.54.254.79 (talk) 01:42, 26 October 2014 (UTC)Hilda Khan[reply]

well i have seen so many articles having Facebook, Twitter and other social media references. None of the senior editors have removed them and they are still there. I always put valid info and references and i have no need to share wrong information. plz leave these articles i can better deal with them.thanks...--Malik Amin (talk) 15:10, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Malik Amin, re your above statement I think that this is a wrong attitude to take. The user Hilda Khan seems to be right and is advising you well. Two wrongs dont make a right. If some editors havent removed references from some other article has no bearing on regulations and the point is, editors have pointed out the problem to you, and I am also now doing the same. Generally, Facebook and other such social media refs arent acceptable , especially if they relate to a site specially/specifically promoting a person/individual (as in this case, Mr Ata Muhammed Malik) which would thereby constitute a sort of biased and unethical reporting or referencing. In addition, you keep adding refs, I see from records here, a website called Kot Fateh Khan com; now, whilst this might be above board and in quite good faith, it still has dubious connotations as it seems to be closely connected to the subject of this article or kept written and maintained by someone or some people close to the subject or sponsored by the subject, and as such, it doesnt seem to me to be a legitimate and acceptable source, either. I have thus removed this and I hope you will please not to use FB or this dubious site for references, and try to find and add only reliable sources. In case any material is unsourced or cannot be properly sourced, it is just as well as to remove it. I dont feel it will make much difference to the overall article which is already quite spread out. Sincere regards, AsadUK200 (talk) 01:19, 1 November 2014 (UTC)AsadUK200[reply]

Dear Sir Asad Sahib thanks for your consideration towards this article. But what is the criteria for a website to be judged whether it is dubious or in good faith or promoting some body or organisation. There are many biographical articles that are using the references from the official sites of the concerning personalities, showing their work, achievements, etc. Definitely those websites will be operated by the same person who has put data there and then the creater of wiki article has used that data for the reference. i am surprised why people are annoyed by the site kotfatehkhan.pk. This site is not made and maintained by Malik Ata.The admin has collected some basic information and just put it there not barraging about Malik Ata and his family but to share with the people. I think it is not fair to declare it biased, unethical and dubious site.

Secondly Is it a biased and unethical attitude that someone has made an official site and he has put basic info, his achievements, goals; what you people are saying that those sites cant be used for the source or reference. If yes as you said then i appreciate Malik Ata that he didn't do it himself otherwise you people would definitely say that he is barraging about himself. Although Many of Malik Ata's fans and friends say that Malik Sb should have his own site and he should use Facebook and other social media himself and share about his life events, goals etc. But i think he did well that he did not do it. If this is correct i must advise to all the international celebrities of different walks of life that they should remove their sites and should delete their social media accounts which they operate themselves. Because here the editors have their own and surprising criterias about the judgement of a personality or a website.

Thirdly on Wikipedia it is not necessary to provide a source or reference for each single line. We can add a source at the end of a paragraph. ...regards,,,--Malik Amin (talk) 15:04, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My dear Malik Amin, hello, and thanks for your views, which Im sorry I dont really agree with. Wikipedia is not owned by anyone nor is any one article the property of any one person or editor. Some of us believe in actually wanting to improve the quality of work here and taking positive steps and of following certain regulations, in this regard. Thus, Im afraid I for one, must please insist on following regulations. As to celebrity websites, Facebook isnt such a site, its a social media site. If you can replace some information from such an obviously dubious forum, via material available elsewhere from a reliable source, then please do so. otherwise, Im afraid such material must be removed. Thanks12:30, 2 November 2014 (UTC)AsadUK200

well then i dont consider kotfatehkhan.pk as a dubious site so i would like to use it for a source as it is a reliable website. As i said in our previous discussion that i am searching for some other sources and will add along with this on education and political carrier section when i find them....regards--Malik Amin (talk) 19:12, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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“Chief”

I don’t believe “Chief” of a village is a real office or title. Was he Union Council head? What was his office? ~~ — iFaqeer (talk to or email me) 21:20, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In Pakistan every part of the country has its own system of local leadership with different titles. e.g., Nawab, Chaudhry, Sardar, Malak, Khan, Wadera etc. Here in this case, Kot Fateh Khan was basically, a Jagir that was headed by the leader who used title Nawab. This title is being used by Muslim leaders from centuries in the sub continent and The British continued it giving it to the Muslims. This Jagir or state consisting of 84 villages. After the partition in 1947, the title Nawab is not officially recognized by Govt of Pakistan. Although in many parts of country like Balochistan and Punjab, it is still being used by the local leaders. The heads of Kot Fateh Khan state also used the title Nawab before and after partition. At first, i wrote "Nawab" here. But it was opposed by wiki editors that its not official title so i changed it to "Chief" as it can be used for every titles that i narrated above. Hop you understand my point.Malik Amin (talk