Talk:Malakasioi

Winnifrith, Koukoudis, Ducellier and Hammond are mainstream scholars on the subject of Albanian&Aromanian migrations so it would be difficult to label their research as a minority opinion.Alexikoua (talk)

They're referring to another community. Read the full quotes of the bibliography you're using. Hammond: While Mazaraki is in central Epirus by the river Kalamas, Malakasa is the coastal plain of central Albania farther north and the words ‘of his own race' were used to distinguish the Albanian-speaking Malakasaei from the Vlach-speaking Malakasii. They were accompanied by Bulgars and Vlachs. It is clear that Thomas feared the Albanians above all. Whereas he mutilated the Bulgars and the Vlachs, he allowed most of his Albanian prisoners to be ransomed.. Same goes about Koukoudes. He's referring to a community which was still present in the Pindus range after the Ottoman conquest. The one which Hammond and Valentini consider are referring to as of disputed origin. --Maleschreiber (talk) 01:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, don't quote authors if you just have snippet search available for a book. You quoted Pouqeuville again with the (..) Dassaritae were of Vlach origin and you've also double-quoted Hammond...again (as in Bua). The chapter in Winnifrith is the same chapter as the chapter in Hammond (1976) with a slight rework by Hammond. If you had actual access to the book (which I have), you'd read one sentence after that the following quote Elsewhere we hear of the Albanian leader Peter Leosas , leading Malakasii of his own race ,and this would seem to suggest two kinds of Malakasii. --Maleschreiber (talk) 01:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Now you accuse me and claim that Pouqueville (1770 – 1838) ) cites.... [[} Ducellier]] (1934–2018). I assume you need a decent argument to present.Alexikoua (talk) 05:30, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

My arguments are the full quotes themselves in every case.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:31, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually your quotes are refuting your arguments: providing a quote that mentions "Vlach-speaking Malakasii", while at the same time removing everything about a Vlach tribe in this article. That's not a good initiative to support your view.Alexikoua (talk) 11:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

1. Since creation the article was about a Vlach tribe Malakasii, 2. suddenly you changed it to an Albanian tribe and now 3. there is the excuse that this was done because there is another tribe called Malakasii (per Hammond's quote you provided). I'm beginning to feel that something is really weird here.Alexikoua (talk) 13:20, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The weird thing here is that for maybe 10+ years the full quotes were on various talkpages and nobody was reading them. For many years, a now banned editor with the explicit support of other editors was misinforming readers about the content of the bibliography by cropping the quotes in a way that gave them a totally different meaning. For maybe 10+ years, the historiographical consensus was being ignored in order to put forward theories that suited certain extreme POV narratives, but lowered the integrity of the project overall for readers who had knowledge of the academic discussion -including me. Sooner or later, this would have been corrected by the community.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:19, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Apart from accusing me it appears you have run out of argument since pretend that this quote: While Mazaraki is in central Epirus by the river Kalamas, Malakasa is the coastal plain of central Albania farther north and the words ‘of his own race' were used to distinguish the Albanian-speaking Malakasaei from the Vlach-speaking Malakasii. is enough to warrant the removal of Malakasii as a Vlach tribe. A Vlach tribe named Malakasii should be mentioned in this lead. Also unfortunately for you I have full access to all those sources.Alexikoua (talk) 12:05, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

If you have full access to bibliography, then don't misquote it as you've been doing with every quote in this article. Write a Vlach Malakasi article if you think that there is material for such a subject. In this article, the modern community and the dispute (another community or descendants of the original Albanian tribe who adopted Vlach culture) is also mentioned, there's nothing else to say about that. If you want to write about the modern Vlachs of Malakasi, do so in Malakasi.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:11, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Indeed I have full access (bad for you) and in fact this article was a Vlach Malakasii article before this edit [[1]] and you chanced it to an Albanian one. Write a Vlach Malakasi yourself now may sound very childish as a proposal. A civilised approach will be to respect wp:BRD and avoid wp:NINJA: previous will be restored and you are free to create an article about the Albanian tribe. By the way you even misquoted PLP and presented Bouisavos as an Albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 17:18, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

The Bouisavos claim is the only part of the article which was from the old draft - the one which misquoted every source to make it seem as if there was a historical Vlach Malakasi tribe. I would even support removing the whole part about Bouisavos.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:08, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Removed reference & quotes

It's good to have them here [[2]] after their sudden removal:

• Hammond 1976, p. 39: "According to John Cantacuzenus I. 474, they were "Albanians with no king, called after their tribal chiefs (phylarchi) Malakasii, Bouii and Mesaritae." "They were in fact Vlachs; for the Vlach-speaking Malakasii and Bouii, who live today in central Pindus and in southern Thessaly, are undoubtedly descendants of these same people."
• Winnifrith, Tom (1987). The Vlachs: The History of a Balkan People. Duckworth. p. 120. ISBN 978-0-7156-2135-6. They were Albanians with no king , called after their tribal chiefs , Malakasii , Bouii and Mesaritae . 24 But these were probably Vlachs
• Kukudēs, Asterios I. (2003). The Vlachs: Metropolis and Diaspora. Zitros Publ. p. 89. ISBN 978-960-7760-86-9. Although it is difficult to draw a clear distinction between the shifting Vlach and Albanian-speaking populations, many scholars tend to agree that the "tribes" (or at least a large proportion of the tribes) of Malakasii, Bouii, and Dassaritae were of Vlach origin
• Winnifrith, Tom (2002). Badlands, Borderlands: A History of Northern Epirus/Southern Albania. Duckworth. p. 96. ISBN 978-0-7156-3201-7. The invaders of Thessaly with whom Andronicus came to an agreement sound like Vlachs. They were called the Boii, Mesaritae and Malakasii. The last named may have originated in the Albanian district of Malakaster,
• Kukudes 2003, p. 214:"According to Professor Alain Ducellier, although the Byzantine sources describe them as Albanian, the mediaeval Vlach tribes of the Malakasii, Bouii, and Dassaritae were apparently driven to take up a nomadic lifestyle and leave the central"

The full quotes are in the article. What isn't in the article is the cropped and misquoted version you've been putting forward.

• The quote by Hammond (1976) continues as While Mazaraki is in central Epirus by the river Kalamas, Malakasa is the coastal plain of central Albania farther north and the words ‘of his own race' were used to distinguish the Albanian-speaking Malakasaei from the Vlach-speaking Malakasii.
• The full quote by Hammond (1987) (Winnifrith is the editor, not the author of the chapter!) is They were Albanians with no king, called after their tribal chiefs, Malakasii, Bouii, and Mesaritae. But these were probably Vlachs; there were in Pouqeuville's time Vlachs in the Pindus who called themselves Bovi and there is still a village called Malakasi. Elsewhere we hear of the Albanian leader Peter Leosas , leading Malakasii of his own race ,and this would seem to suggest two kinds of Malakasii.
• Kukudes (2013) is referring to the modern community with a quote by Pouqeuville. The whole chapter is dedicated to the "Vlachs of Aspropotamos, Hora Metzovou and Vlahotzoumerko". I won't post the whole chapter here, but it's incomprehensible to me that you're insisting on using cropped misquotes from bibliography you don't have access to. The way you've cropped the quote one could easily write that the Dassaretae were of Vlach origin and then if someone else removed it, they could insist that a POV was being put forward to justify the revert.
• Winnifrith (2002) continues as They were called the Boii, Mesaritae and Malakasii. The last named may have originated in the Albanian district of Malakaster, and may have finished their journey in the Vlach village of Malakasi. (You literally cropped the quote mid-sentence..)
• I've expanded the article with "heavyweights" of medieval history in the Balkans like John Van Antwerp Fine Jr. and Donald Nicol as well as the excellent 2017 paper by Thekla Sansaridou and Alexikoua still keeps putting forward cropped versions of bibliography, which he doesn't have access to.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:19, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually you have selectively removed everything about a Vlach-tribe without the slightest quote supporting this. In fact with those additional quotes you provided are further self refuting your POV.Alexikoua (talk) 12:11, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Koukoudes was referring to Alain Ducellier, a well known professor, isn't that clear from this: "According to Professor Alain Ducellier, although the Byzantine sources describe them as Albanian, the mediaeval Vlach tribes . I'm afraid that large scale disruption should have some limits.Alexikoua (talk) 12:15, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Strange behavior

Something very strange is going on here: At Bua (tribe), Maleschreiber furiously argued that the Bua never entered Thessaly [3]. Yet, here he writes The Malakasi along with other Albanian tribes, the Bua and the Mesareti invaded Thessaly after 1318. [4]. There had better be a damn good explanation for this. Khirurg (talk) 21:10, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Ping me when you have a question, I rarely watch talkpage discussions. I wrote that the The Bua never settled in Thessaly. which they didn't, not that they never entered Thessaly. They invaded Thessaly and then signed a deal with the Byzantine Emperor after which they appear westwards in the Despotate of Epirus. Read Fine (1994), Nicol (1984), Sassaridou (2017) for more in the article's bibiliography. A good reading of bibliography is required in such subjects as well as a proper quoting of the arguments your co-editors make. --Maleschreiber (talk) 21:34, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

• Khirurg, "enter" and "settle" are not the same thing. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:03, 8 June 2020 (UTC)