Talk:Madamina, il catalogo è questo

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"Nella bianca la dolcezza"

Are we certain that when Leporello mentions, among the women seduced by Don Giovanni, the "bianca" (literally, "the white one") he means "the very blond"? It is far more simple to suppose that he refers to old, white-haired women. In any case, simply translating "white" leaves the ambiguity untouched and the reader may choose for himself. If no one objects, I'll change "very blond" to "white" (no matter what NYC Opera Project says). Goochelaar (talk) 22:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Given the contiguous contrast with blondes and brunettes, I think he's referring to white hair too (or grey hair as it's usually expressed in English). Why not translate it as "white-haired". Just "white" would, I think, call up to an English reader "white skin", which I don't think is what was intended. It's all a moot point anyway. This aria shouldn't be here, it should be in Wikisource. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 07:59, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for confirming my view. I have added some material to the article itself, and shall try to add some more. In my opinion, if the article is long and rich enough, the text of the aria might stay. Goochelaar (talk) 13:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your additions! It's an interesting article now. I'm just wondering if there ought to be a footnote with an English translation of the lines quoted from Il convitato di pietra. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, it is nice to see one's work appreciated! I have added the translation. Would you mind checking it? In particular, I don't like the repetitions like "artisan women, peasant women" and the like. In Italian those are simply feminine nouns ("artigiane, contadine..."). Happy editing, Goochelaar (talk) 09:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the substance did not make it immediately obvious, the length of this discussion would be another proof that OR is going on. The article must reflect generally accepted knowledge, not WP's consensus of how to translate the Italian. A descriptive summary (in English, of course), or a public domain translation, may be added (if there's a consensus that it's not too much detail), but an original translation is not admissible, for any passage too long to allow discussion of the two languages' differences in the nuances attendant upon choices of words by the author and by the translator.
On the other hand, the parallel versions are likely to be of use to future editors in grasping what the aria is about, and that may assist appropriate additional editing. (The contributors to the translation (and various intermediate versions of it, and their authors) can at least in theory be identified from the edit history. (The history was in two parts, due to a cut-and-paste move; the 54 edits i found together, and the 3 separate edits are now repaired.)
--Jerzy•t 19:17, 20 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Aria text and English translation

Italian

English translation

Madamina, il catalogo è questo
Delle belle che amò il padron mio;
un catalogo egli è che ho fatt'io;
Osservate, leggete con me.

In Italia seicento e quaranta;
In Alemagna^[1] duecento e trentuna;
Cento in Francia, in Turchia novantuna;
Ma in Ispagna son già mille e tre.

V'han fra queste contadine,
Cameriere, cittadine,
V'han contesse, baronesse,
Marchesane, principesse.
E v'han donne d'ogni grado,
D'ogni forma, d'ogni età.

Nella bionda egli ha l'usanza
Di lodar la gentilezza,
Nella bruna la costanza,
Nella bianca la dolcezza.

Vuol d'inverno la grassotta,
Vuol d'estate la magrotta;
È la grande maestosa,
La piccina è ognor vezzosa.

Delle vecchie fa conquista
Pel piacer di porle in lista;
Sua passion predominante
È la giovin principiante.

Non si picca — se sia ricca,
Se sia brutta, se sia bella;
Purché porti la gonnella,
Voi sapete quel che fa.

My dear lady, this is a list
Of the beauties my master has loved,
A list which I have compiled.
Observe, read along with me.

In Italy, six hundred and forty;
In Germany, two hundred and thirty-one;
A hundred in France; in Turkey, ninety-one;
But in Spain already one thousand and three.

Among these are peasant girls,
Maidservants, city girls,
Countesses, baronesses,
Marchionesses, princesses,
Women of every rank,
Every shape, every age.

With blondes it is his habit
To praise their kindness;
In brunettes, their faithfulness;
In the white-haired, their sweetness.

In winter he likes fat ones.
In summer he likes thin ones.
He calls the tall ones majestic.
The little ones are always charming.

He seduces the old ones
For the pleasure of adding to the list.
His greatest favourite
Is the young beginner.

It doesn't matter if she's rich,
Ugly or beautiful;
If she wears a skirt,
You know what he does.

Same goes for the shorter translation of the other librettist's Don G.
--Jerzy•t 19:17, 20 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Original Italian	English translation
Dell'Italia, ed Alemagna ve ne ho scritte cento, e tante. Della Francia, e della Spagna ve ne sono non so quante: fra madame, cittadine, artigiane, contadine, cameriere, cuoche, e sguattere; perché basta che sian femmine per doverle amoreggiar. […]	From Italy and Germany here are written one hundred and more. From France and from Spain there are more than I know: be they ladies, city women, artisans, peasants, waitresses, cooks and scullery maids, it suffices they be female for him to have to make love to them. […]

References

^ The NMA p78 has restored Mozart's spelling "Lamagna".

Gazzaniga's version

I agree about the repetitions. I changed it to simply "artisans, peasants". It's clear from the context that they refer to women. I have another question though. Most sources I've seen list Gazzaniga's opera as Don Giovanni, o sia Il convitato di pietra (usually shortened to simply Don Giovanni rather than Il convitato di pietra). I added the full title to the article. Is that OK? Best, Voceditenore (talk) 11:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Macchia's book always calls the opera Il convitato di pietra, but I see that other sources do not do so. For me it is ok either way. Bye, Goochelaar (talk) 13:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Musical form

I would describe this as a backwards cabaletta form rather than what I think of as binary form- it is possibly unique in having the cantabile follow the cabaletta. How does Gazzaniga set his aria? Sparafucil (talk) 10:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nyman's "In Re..."

Actually, it's not a canon, since it doesn't consist of a single melodic line that is repeated by various voices. It's a harmonic pattern (15 bars) (violins, piano) to which a melodic line from Mozart's original aria is added with every second repetition, first the bass line (Baritone sax, Bass trombone etc.), then a soprano line (piccolo flute, trumpet), and finally the "baritone" melody of Mozart's original (tenor trombone). Every instrument keeps to its individual line. -- megA (talk) 21:04, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Catalog Song

There are a number of Google hits for the aria under

"catalog song" OR "catalogue song"

and accordingly i'm creating Rdrs to the accompanying article.
However, the expression also refers to a category of other list songs, of which "Thanks for the Memory" is the example i heard so described. I haven't found any (further) material for List of catalog songs, but it sounds like it's a phenom recognized at least by those who write or commission songs, & the refs are probably out there somewhere; the accompanying article will need a HatNote Dab if and when that list gets created.
--Jerzy•t 17:25, 20 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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[1] The NMA p78 has restored Mozart's spelling "Lamagna".

[1]