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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

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maps of dioceses

the "organization" section has two maps, one showing 7 dioceses labeled "(1967-2013)", the other showing 8 dioceses labeled "(2013 to present)". The only difference is that in the first map, the Diocese of Tetovo and Gostivar is not labeled. But the accompanying text, indicating dioceses as of 1999, lists it. Was Tetovo-Gostivar empty before 2013? Or should it be labeled in the first map, which would then require the dates to be omitted?--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 15:34, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Seemingly full return to full communion with Ecuemnical Patriarchate?

On May 9th, 2022, the Phanar seemed to announce recognition of the Ohrid Archbishopric (without allowance for the title "Macedonian") under Archbishop Stephen. Article can be found here: https://orthodoxtimes.com/phanar-yes-to-the-recognition-no-to-macedonia-for-the-archdiocese-of-ohrid/

Your thoughts? I hesitate to make this visible on the front page because I have not seen the original Greek document which proclaims this. Before it's put on the Wikipedia, a few people should confirm, as I don't want such an article to cause confusion amongst faithful Orthodox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarnFineCoffee (talk • contribs) 15:55, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes this news has been spread in Bulgarian. Jingiby (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
@DarnFineCoffee: I cannot find the original Greek document on the official Ecumenical Patriarchate website. However, a Greek version can be found on this news agency website.
It is not a recognition of autocephaly, for those typically require a tomos. Rather, it is a recognition of the existence and legitimacy of the MOC without anymore classification or clarification.
@Ad Orientem: pinging you as I feel this may be of interest to you. Veverve (talk) 21:43, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
Here is the original Greek on the official EP website; here is the official English translation on the same website. Veverve (talk) 10:51, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
Now that I think of it: each time the EP has recognised an autocephaly, it granted the Church tomos, but it was because the EP considered all those Churches to be under its jurisdiction and thus that it was its right by law to grant them autocephaly by an official document. In this case, the EP recognises the organisation but admits the Serbian Church has jurisdiction over it.
Does it mean this time the EP recognised an autocephalous Church without giving it a tomos, for the aforementioned reason? @ThanmadGR: (ping due to [1]): what do you think?
I guess the situation will be clearer by Sunday once the diptychs are sung a the liturgy. Veverve (talk) 20:33, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
@TheLionHasSeen and Vanjagenije: (pinging you due to [2]): what is your opinion on the matter related to what I wrote juste above (20:33, 12 May 2022)? Veverve (talk) 22:52, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
As I understand those sources, the Ecumenical Patriarch recognized the MOC as Orthohox (under the "Archbishopric of Ohrid" moniker), but not as autocepahlous. There is no source that calls it "autocephalous". Vanjagenije (talk) 23:04, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Veverve PM Kovachevski recently sent a letter to the EP, thanking His Holiness for the recognition, and the recognition only: "We hope that in due course, by resolving other administrative problems, it will finally lead to the autocephaly of our Church, which we understand as unity with all local Orthodox Churches through obedience and respect for the First Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople." The MOC leadership might still claim independence from the Serb Patriarchate, possibly for internal consumption, but the Government seems ready to play by the rules.

ThanmadGR (talk) 08:59, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Now there is the SOC stating it accepts the MOC (original statement)... as an autonomous part within the SOC, with the same 1959 status it had! I have no idea what is happening, I really do not see the MOC renouncing its autocephaly. @Чръный человек: do you have any clue or way to explain what is the current situation and the goal the SOC and MOC are trying to achieve? Veverve (talk) 13:08, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

The Serbian and Macedonian churches were negotiating. The essence of these negotiations was that the Serbian Church agreed to grant canonical autocephaly to the Macedonian Orthodox Church. And when they had almost agreed, the Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate suddenly recognized "the church under Archbishop Stephen." But both the Serbian and Macedonian churches did not attach importance to this and continued negotiations. Finally, on May 16, their negotiations ended with the temporary transition of the Macedonian Orthodox Church to Serbian Orthodox Church according to the status of 1959. Now we must expect granting autocephaly. The Serbian Church, granting autocephaly, will not require either a change of name or the abandonment of dioceses in the diaspora. That's how I see this situation. ~ Чръный человек (talk) 20:48, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
There is actually no official stance from the MOC on the matter of reunification with the SOC. At this stage it’s a unilateral declaration by the SOC. I advise leaving the article as it was until we hear from the MOC. Kromid (talk) 22:41, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
I agree with Kromid. This also applies to other articles on WP about the status of the MOC. Veverve (talk) 22:59, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
You were right Чръный человек, according to this article, the SOC and the EP both raced against each others to grant autocephaly first to the MOC. Veverve (talk) 14:47, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
I don't think it indicates much of a race - I'd reckon this is just Orthodox Times being the usual sympathetic outlet for the EP, since the original article description said "In a move that... smells of Russian involvement and which further complicates things in Orthodoxy at a time when the war in Ukraine is raging from the Russian offensive, the Patriarchate of Serbia went ahead today."
If it weren't for the whole "only EP can grant autocephaly" line of thought that has been around for the past century or so, we likely wouldn't see this article written in this way.
I almost consider Orthodox Times for the Greeks like how Orthochristian/Pravoslavie.ru to the Russians, sympathetic to one particular side of the church to the general disregard of the rest. Vypr (talk) 12:56, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, OrthodoxTimes.com seems like weirdly trying to construct controversy when there may be none?
Ђидо (talk) 20:44, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
That's my thought anyway, since the EP basically told Serbia to deal with the administrative end of this stuff back when they restored the MOC to communion - this is their response.
The MOC even said they were going to communicate with the EP about getting their autocephaly recognized and having a tomos from the EP, which Orthodox Times reported on with great joy. Vypr (talk) 21:41, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 28 July 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (closed by non-admin page mover) >>> Ingenuity.talk(); 22:40, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Macedonian Orthodox Church – Archdiocese of Ohrid → Macedonian Orthodox Church – The official name of the church is the Macedonian Orthodox Church – Archdiocese of Ohrid. But the most commonly used name of the church is simply the Macedonian Orthodox Church. Therefore, I propose to move this article to the Macedonian Orthodox Church. Симит-погача (talk) 18:01, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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