Talk:Macaca (term)

Sentence Removed

I removed the sentence about George Allen because it was POV at best, was poorly written, did not fit where placed in the article, and really didn't serve to further the understanding of the term Macaca as a racial slur. Beatdown 01:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Citation

Please do not remove citation needed tag unless a verifiable reference is added to resolve the issue of different pronunciations for the two different words. The word macaque doesn't automatically equal the word macaca any more than homo equals human ... or equals ape, or equals chimp. Still need a cite. - 69.19.14.31 04:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Since the edit eliminating "macaque no longer = macaca", then all references to macaque only are unnecessary and should be removed. - 66.82.9.73 05:37, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Verification is the editors' burden, and there's a week without needed citation on totally unsupported macaca=macaque wording.66.82.9.54 05:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Need a citation suppporting the first sentence that macaca is also spelled macaque. Please add a citation that macaca (pronounced mə-kä’kă), is also written as macaque, pronounced mə-kăk’ or mə-käk’.69.19.14.19 14:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Albert Gore and Hillary Clinton made comments this AM that George Allen was a man of character and wit and THAT HIS COMMNENTS SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT given his years of working for good of the minority. They suggested that his comment was to have included the word "mohican" and he was just tired from the many hours of service in the pursuit of good government. If its good enough for Al and Hillary, then its good enough for me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.104.205.42 (talk • contribs) 10:41, 3 September 2006.

The white supremacy code-word section contained no valid citation. The attributed link (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/List-of-ethnic-slurs#M) contains nothing about white supremacist code-words. Someone find a source if you want it to go back up. Edbanky 02:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• Once again, the current content, as written, is not supported by the link provided (this time: http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,,1331882,00.html). In fact, the word Macaca doesn't even appear on the currently linked page. At the absolute most, one might say that French & Belgians use a similar term to refer to people of African descent, IF the link is to http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/List-of-ethnic-slurs#M . Otherwise, it's just pulled out of thin air.Edbanky 02:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Yet another change in citations has occurred. This time a link to a personal blog is provided as the source. The person who keeps changing it really needs to first verify his sources in the talk section. Quit simply flinging links hoping one will stick. As it currently stands, the only arguably legitmate source uses the term "Macaque" and attributes it to being used by French/Belgians. While macaca might derive from macaque, it still has not been cited as being a white supremacist word. This, coupled with the immediate sub-article referencing George Allen's incident provides a presumptuous connotation. If it goes back, it should go back as something more like "Macaca is a possible derivative of the term macaque, used in France and Belgium as an epithet to refer to blacks." That is accurate and unbiased.Edbanky 03:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
    • OK, this is last time responding to myself. The article's introduction already states what any legitimate sources (thus far) offered are suggesting--namely that it's an epithet used by Francophones. Again, in the absense of proper citation, reinserting the white supremacy claim will constitute a deliberate attempt to introduce unattributed bias.Edbanky 03:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Macaca Effect

Something needs to be said about "macaca effect" phrase in high tech. Included the following:

Although the phrase "macaca effect" originally had a political meaning in the Virginia Senate race, it now has taken on a new meaning in the world of high tech. Liz Davidson writes:

What is the "macaca effect"? First of all, what is a macaca? A "macaca" is a racial pejorative to refer to someone either from or with ancestry from India or Pakistan. And the "macaca effect" is pejorative used by people in high tech to refer to East Indians driving down the wages of American and British workers. In many fields (computer programming, engineering, medicine, nursing, accounting, etc.) companies are faking labor shortages to acquire an H1B visa and hire East Indians, with the net effect of driving down the wages of American and British employees. Thus, one hears disgruntled employees talking about the "macaca effect."

http://www.magic-city-news.com/Guest_Column_89/What_is_the_Macaca_Effect10562.shtml

References

Request for comments

Request for comments: I put the nationmaster definition and the blog source info back in substantially rephrased and in the 'Usage' section, rather than in the more definitive top section, because the blog source particularly was one of the first to research the word and demonstrated current use in the racist community. I thought it was probably more germane than how Captain Haddock uses the word, so I was suprised to see it gone again. I'm going to post this message in the talk section and ask for comments about reinstating the info. I'm suprised to be accused of 'flinging links' because checking the history of this page will show that I have provided nearly all of the sources on the origins and usage of the word other than the Edgerton references in footnotes 2 and 3, and I believe that the are all legitimate, scholarly, and valid. Richardjames444 12:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The removed section in question was:

• Macaca is listed as an ethnic slur in current online dictionaries, and is used as such by white power activists and members of racist organizations.

The references were: Nationmaster.com list of ethnic slurs and Jeffrey Feldman on racist use of Macaque/Macaca in online forums

Since they're descriptive of usage rather than addressing definition, I think that they should be added back in. Richardjames444 12:39, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• • The article's introduction already states what any legitimate sources (thus far) offered are suggesting--namely that it's an epithet used by Francophones. Again, in the absense of proper citation, reinserting the white supremacy claim will constitute a deliberate attempt to introduce unattributed bias. In the context especially, it provides a skewed link between the southern senator and white supremacist dogma. I propose, if anything should be added, something more like the following: "Macaca is a possible derivative of the term macaque, used in France and Belgium as an epithet to refer to blacks." (or Africans or people of African descent . . . ) This version is both accurate and makes no telling omissions of crucial contextual information. We are referring to something as intangible as "usage" here. Edbanky 16:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Legitimacy?

Excuse me, but was this page created specifically in reference to the Allen controversy? I see lots of claims about how macaca is used as an ethnic slur, but absolutely no citation. If Allen's "inside knowledge" of French prompted him to use this "slur" that "no one else will understand," (not that knowledge of a language brings with it knowledge of all the slang and insults used in that language) why didn't he use the real slur: macaque? The first edit I can see for this page ever was after the Allen controversy broke. Let's not go around creating controversy, eh? If this is really a commonly used slur, find the citation. Otherwise, all you're doing here is making up a story that doesn't exist. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Datroy (talk • contribs) .

You are correct in that this page was created as a result of the Allen controversy. That does not make it any less of a real word. Often, articles don't exist simply because nobody who knows about it has bothered to create them yet. That was the case with this article. modargo 04:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It would seem to make sense to acknowledge this fact up front on this page. Part of the controversy here is whether Allen actually was using a known slur. For those who don't do any digging, the lack of a disclaimer lends credibility to those who attacking Allen -- but it is dishonest at best. --Xnilo (talk) 18:55, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Or could it have been that there's simply no story here? People heard Allen call a kid an odd name. They claimed he was singled out because of his race, yet it is clear from the video he was singled out because he was from the opposition and videotaping the event. Afterwards, people were absolutely certain that, even though no one had ever heard of this word, it was a very bad word. So they created a story where none previously existed.

So if it was a white kid he would have both a) used an obscure racial slur and b) said "welcome to America"?

Documentation?

Like the idea of the article -- but to convince people of its accuracy, doesn't it need some linkage to credible sourcing? At the moment, readers more or less have to take our word for it. --GGreeneVa 12:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, there is no documentation at all, and I've had a hard time finding any. This is a particular blatant NPOV problem, especially given the fact that it doesn't mention the most obvious meaning, "stooge" or "puppet" ("dancing monkey").

Yes, we need to work on sourcing, but I don't think anyone can deny that this term does exist and is in usage (especially given the latest). If nothing else, there should be newspaper articles out of Virginia on what the Senator said. --Cyde Weys 13:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

If this is a pre-existing racial slur, there ought to be documentation. If there is no documentation that it has been used before as an obvious slur, then saying that it is a slur in the article seems to be taking one side of a political disputation. KevClark64 14:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Read the Washington Post article already linked - it talks about the slur somewhat. And no, it's not a political dispute that macaca is a racial slur. --Cyde Weys 15:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Um, screw the Post (I'm sorry but they messed up on this story). The New Republic's blog, The Plank, is much better. I, however, am an editing neophyte, so if someone knows how to make that look a little better, please, be my guest.ClumsyMohel 16:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC) Oh, and the "speaks French" addition may be the cause of the neutrality dispute, but it is true that Allen speaks French. That should be included in that section somehow. ClumsyMohel 16:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

For people who doubt this is a real slur: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/List-of-ethnic-slurs#M Note that the "last updated" timestamp (at the time of writing this) is two months ago, so they obviously didn't just add this after the Allen story. ChaunceyMo

It was removed from enwiki in June for not being in English [1]. Phr (talk) 09:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The word "nigger" is used in the translation, when the only insult I heard the Belgians used for the Congolese, and the one which Lumumba found so hurtful, was "sale macaque" which translates as "dirty monkey". Lumumba related to me that on the day he obtained his hard-won certificate from the Belgian government designating him an "evolved African" he was walking down the sidewalk in Leopoldville dressed in a suit and tie, when a passing Belgian woman sneered "sale macaque" at him, and in that moment Lumumba realized there was no hope for a Congolese under Belgian rule.) - review of THE ASSASSINATION OF LUMUMBA by Ludo De Witt Want some more, NPOV guys? "macaque" is the French/Belgian "N-word"

Perhaps so -- but if that's the case, let's source it. My problem with this article isn't the politics, it's the etymology; if people are going to believe the description of 'macaca' as slur, it needs to be sourced to the O.E.D., the book cited above, or wherever. Anything would do, as long as it's credible. --GGreeneVa 19:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting side note--it is a term which originated in French Tunisia--and guess where George Allen's mother is from???? Drum roll please . . . French Tunisia

-- Here's some more information on the Brazilian connection:

from: Racism in a Racial Democracy: The Maintenance of White Supremacy in Brazil - Page 70; by France Winddance Twine "While Miguel reported that in the past he had been called derogatory names such as macaca (monkey), he continued to frame his failure to win public office exclusively in terms of his socioeconomic status."

footnote: rhesus monkey :: Macaca mulatta; mulatto (from OED, draft revision 2003) 1. A person having one white and one black parent. Freq. more generally: a person of mixed race resembling a mulatto.

**Now chiefly considered offensive.** {new to the draft revision!}

Tsuwm 21:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It's kinda hard to document when some nice person named User:James_Kemp deletes it immediately without any sort of explanation or discussion..

Apologies - I've only just started using VandalProof and am making a few mistakes. It was the double-square brackets that confused me. Feel free to revert the edit - you could have done so anyway, and maybe put in an edit summary so it was more clear what you were doing. If you have a problem with a revert I've mad using VP, please let me know on my talk page, as I'll be more likely to see it. And, please, No Personal Attacks. I don't mind myself, but I do agree with the policy in general. --Jim (Talk) 02:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

"If this is a pre-existing racial slur, there ought to be documentation." Urban Dictionary[2] makak: Racist word in Belgium for people from coloured origins, and Immigrants. retrieved by Google on Aug 13, 2006 Rsquid 12:43, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Urbandictionary is a user-defined work that is not really verifiable or reliable, and the entry for makak is dated really recently- it still predates the Allen controversy, but it doesn't present a credible source. Richardjames444 12:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality?

Starting with the first sentence "Macaca (also written as macaque) ..." there are no cites. In both English and French dictionaries "macaque" (pronounced mə-kăk’ or mə-käk’) rhymes with "a back" or "the sack". In all other Franco-English words (plaque, opaque, plaque, antique, unique, clique, bisque, toque, baroque, oblique, and torque) the -que is a "k" sound; making all further references to "macaque" irrelevant.

Of the references to columnist Taki Theodoracopulos, #8 is unavailable for verification and #9 has no connection to the alleged slur. Reference 13, The Chicago Tribune's Swamp Blog, like most other blogs, fails Wiki's reliable, published sources and neutral point of view policies.

I'd discuss this further, but Wiki's founder wrote,

"There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative "I heard it somewhere" pseudo information is to be tagged with a "needs a cite" tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons."

Article material solely using references 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 13 will be removed. Wikipedia's burden of evidence lies with the editors, and outlandish claims beg strong sources. 66.82.9.56 17:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The Allen bit seems neutral enough to me - it's the source material that disputed. Did he mean it as a slur? What is the French connection? How can mohawk become macaca? I'd axe the bit about him speaking French, and just because something comes from the Washington Post does not mean there's a liberal slant. The man said something that is potentially racist, and making up excuses for why he said it smack of similar "that's not what I meant" dances by Trent Lott and Ross Perot. Stick to the facts. 808 16:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Whether Allen speaks French or not seems completely irrelevant. I speak fluent French and was unfamiliar with this particular slur until the news hit. I'm also not sure that the general focus of this article makes sense - this seems to be more about Allen and a particular news event than about the slur itself. If this slur really is something worth writing about, I would think it should stand on its own, with just a section mentioning the Allen incident and linking to an article about Allen. Melsod 18:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's a sticky wicket - is the word itself worthy of added attention, or is the use of the word by a living, breathing politician, especially when the use of the word is brushed aside as essentially irrelevant? I think we can all agree that if Mr. Allen used a more common slur to insult Mr. Sidarth, there would be no question about him being wrong. But since I, a guy who considers himself something of a minor wordsmith, had never even heard of the term, its sudden use in public by a supposedly respected politician made it shocking, interesting and worth writing about under its entry in wikipedia. I think the slur's sudden, splashy and unforntunate appearance is entirely worthy of a wikipedia entry. Besides, it's true and documented, is it not? 808 19:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

808 and Melsod, do either of you speak African French? Here we've got a French-speaking politician who likely has had some exposure to that dialect (see the info about his mother) and he uses a slur from that dialect. That's very interesting even though most English or non-African French speakers wouldn't know the term. In fact the obscurity may be why he let himself use the term in public. As for the Allen's use of the word, it's gotten a lot of press coverage, which is the main thing that makes the word suitable for an encyclopedia article instead of a wiktionary entry. Phr (talk) 22:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

This article really seems to me to be more about George Allen than anything else. I would favor slimming the article down to just basically the first sentence and then one or two more sentences explaining how the word caught the attention of the American public and linking to the controversies section of the George Allen article for anyone who wants to read further. The words connection with George Allen is definitely notable, but this article should primarily be about the word itself, and right now it isn't. modargo 19:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I rewrote the page. If anyone has a good reference for prior use of macaca as a slur, it would be good to add it to the first or second sentence, as while this word does seem to be a genuine ethnic slur, it seems to not be in high enough use that it is generally known. So it would be nice to provide some independent confirmation of its use, beyond only the article. modargo 20:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I re-added the "mohawk" comment because it's interesting, and most certainly is about the word macaca. If one is to suggest that a known racist term was uttered by someone suspected of being a racist for the reason that it was merely a variation/diminuitive of another, unrelated term, the thought deserves to be included. It may be odd, but it's there in print. 808 20:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Including a bit on the mohawk is fine. However, what I really want to prevent is this article becoming a big messy repitition of all the information that's already in the George Allen article. It's both unnecessary and stylistically bad. This page is about the word; the incident should only be described to the extent necessary to give context to the article. The inclusion of the basic details of the response of Allen and his campaign is a part of that, but it should not go beyond that. (Which is why I reverted the edit of an anonymous user that added another sentence giving unnecessary detail on the mohawk angle. If people are interesting, they can go to the George Allen article.) modargo 21:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The context, that he then invited an american to america, is suggestive of racism, but doesn't establish it IMO. The whole of the comments may just suggest a mean-spiritedness and tactlessness. Supposedly "macaca" as used by Allen is a portmanteau of mohawk and caca (see the Allen article), but how Sidarth or anybody in that audience was supposed to know that, and why a politician should be critiquing hairstyles or using the word caca, I don't know. I don't know if this deserves an article, but it could develop into one depending on how much info on the word can be found and how much it stays in the news. Шизомби 00:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Schizombie, I dig your pedagouge-like use of portmanteau, but I can't find a reference for it in the Post article...could you add that distinction to the article and cite it? After all, it makes warped sense - mohawk+caca = mocaca. Kinda like Ninevah + chigger = oh, but that's naughty. Hope George Allen doesn't come up with that for some other Webb operative on the campaign trail. 808 02:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The source for the information about the Mohawk + caca thing is a hotline blog posting. modargo 03:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

This word has taken on some interesting connotations. George Allen certainly started it, but why did James Webb use it later? I've added his use at the debate where it got instantly reverted by Mareino. The article is about the word macaca, not about one political view. Reverting to eliminate James Webb's use constitutes a deliberate attempt to introduce bias. - 66.82.9.73 05:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Lots of new formatting

Complete reworking to take the focus off the Allen incident and onto the word itself. I'm not sure that ref #1 is good enough for where it has been placed, I had tracked it down initially and situated it in a less critical spot. Richardjames444 17:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Awesome -- awesome, awesome, awesome. Just the trick we needed to make this article credible. --GGreeneVa 18:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I reverted the additional info about the George Allen incident. THe emphasis of this article is on the term itself, rather than Allen's use of it. There is plenty of room in George Felix Allen and Virginia United States Senate election, 2006 for expanisve critiques of Allen's racism. Richardjames444 21:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

This page is about to get a lot more traffic.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/4125006.html Mathiastck 14:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

""This fellow here, over here with the yellow shirt, Macaca, or whatever his name is. ... He's following us around everywhere. And it's just great," Allen said to appreciative laughter.

Doubtless no one present knew what "macaca" meant, but subsequently, those three syllables have caused a tectonic shift in the political plates. Literally, it's the name of a monkey common to North Africa and Asia; figuratively, it's a racial slur in some parts of the world.

And in the United States, effective last Friday, it's an eponym for "major political boo-boo."" http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/4125006.html Mathiastck 14:03, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

IE stuff like this is being made cafepress.com/macaca Mathiastck 17:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Page move

Please do not move this page to Macaca without a discussion. The main meaning for Macaca is the genus Macaca. The common name for this genus is Macaque which is why Macaca redirects there. Furthermore the slur is derived from the main meaning of the word. Joelito (talk) 16:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This article needs to be rewritten and then protected

The new revision is obviously biased and has absoultley no citing information, just partisan hackery. The use of "Macaca" as a racial epithet is somewhat well documented on the internet and throughout the recent coverage of Allen's use of "Macaca" in a campaign rally. I'd prefer not to edit this myself because I'm realitivley inexperinced with Wikipedia and due to the touchy nature of the subject I'd like to see someone with a bit more experince fix this one up. zcflint05

I am against protecting this article. Mathiastck 13:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to America

In the George Allen section, it says, "Immediately following his second description of Sidarth as 'Macaca', Allen said, 'Welcome to America and the real world of Virginia,' which some interpret as highlighting Sidarth's race and national background. Alternatively, some interpret the comment as referring to a contrast between Allen touring rural Virginia and Webb visiting a 'bunch of Hollywood movie moguls.'"

There is no citation for the secondary interpretation, which is not found in either the George Felix Allen or the related election article. (There's a real question of whether the "welcome to America" part of the incident belongs in the Macaca article—it currently is not mentioned in the Allen article.) In any case, without a link to a credible source (i.e., not a partisan blogger), I believe the interpretation should be removed.--RattBoy 10:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

MR. RUSSERT: But why would you say to someone “Welcome to America, welcome to the real Virginia”? SEN. ALLEN: Because he was the cameraman for, for Jim Webb. He was following us around all over, all over the state. And we were going to small towns and rural areas and places that, while my opponent that week was out in Hollywood raising money, and I was talking about Virginia values. And so the point was, as you’re talking to the cameraman, to talk to Mr. Webb, to say, “Hey, here’s—welcome to the real world of Virginia,” as opposed to Hollywood, which is a world of make-believe.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14815993/page/7/

--Patchouli 02:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Interesting reference. Thanks for posting it. However, though it appears to address the "Virginia" part, Sen. Allen avoids talking about the "America" part. Though some people from what they call the "Heartland" appear to believe that Hollywood isn't part of the real "America"—since it's been populated by libruls like Reagan, Schwarzeneggar, Heston, Bono, Eastwood, Disney, and Patricia Heaton—Hollywood is, in fact, located in the United States of America. So he never did address the apparent jingoism inherent in the slurs he cast at Sidarth.--RattBoy 16:37, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Why Delete?

Improve the article certainly but it is a word (meaning monkey) and there was at least an alledged slur which can be discussed and the main points of view can be introduced.

How did George Allen know a "french-colonial" epithet?

One question regarding the use of Macaca or Macaque by Senator Allen was how would this aw-shucks son of a popular football coach know this little-used Belgian-French epithet?

The answer may have become apparent with recent reporting from Channel 9 CBS News in Washington DC. The Senator would have become familiar with that slur because his mother was of Algerian-Jewish ancestry and that community used the term when referring to poorly behaved persons of color. I first heard in used in Toulon France in 1976 while at the Naval Shipyard there by my girl-friend referring to some of my friends (of any color) who were not behaving correctly. She said it originally meant negroes but was expanded to include any one who did not conform to accepted norms. I do not know if the Senator was using the word as the French and Belgian overlords used it or if he used it in the sense that my girl-friend did when he referred to Mr. Webb's cameraman but in any event it did show how we'll react to any nuance-bone the media throws us.

Look just below this window and there's a blurb about verifiable content.69.19.14.24 23:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The word

"*The word is still occasionally used in Belgium (both in Flanders and in Wallonia) as a racial slur, referring not to Congolese but to Moroccan immigrants or their descendants.‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› " Which word? Macaca or Macaque? --Gbleem 05:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the French word "Macaque" would be pronounced with a final schwa-like sound (i.e. three syllables) in many cases of formal "citation pronunciation", reading poetry, or singing it as part of a song. Some of the seeming differences may not be as distinctive as you think they are... AnonMoos 06:32, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Re: Three syllables? Like plaque, opaque, plaque, antique, unique, clique, bisque, toque, baroque, oblique, technique and torque? That's obviously not true, in English and French the '-que' ending is a "k" sound.

The dictionary pronunciation for macaque is mə-kăk’ or mə-käk’. To end in a pronounced vowel the word must have an (accented or acute) 'é' as in appliqué or risqué. Even in those cases, the ending vowel sound is not 'ă' or 'ä', but the long 'ā' sound. A good example is the pique and piqué pair.

If there's some citation to an ending vowel sound, I'm certainly open to verifiable, reliable documentation. - 69.19.14.17 05:33, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Dude, I was talking about the French pronunciation, so all your non-French sources are completely irrelevant. What part of "French" don't you understand? In any case, if you had ever just sung "Alouette, gentille Alouette" then you would know that "Alouette" is pronounced with four syllables in that song, with a schwa-type vowel at the end of the word. If you haven't even ever sung "Alouette, gentille Alouette", then maybe you should refrain from making emphatic and dogmatic statements on subjects which you seem to be somewhat ignorant about... AnonMoos 02:30, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

French pronounciation is with two syllables ending in k sound, as is the Dutch (Flemish) version makak which is derived from the french one. LHOON 22:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the proper French pronunciation is *not* with two syllables -- but it *is* common to use the two-syllable ending in the southern portion of France...France's "southern" accent. Does anyone know if this is the accent that predominates in French colonial Africa? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.108.144.40 (talk • contribs) 00:20, November 25, 2006 (UTC).

Macawitz

How do we explain the implied meaning behind Macacawitz? Allen is not Jewish but his mother's family is. How do we explain why it was offensive? --Gbleem 00:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

How's this? Schi 01:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting

We have another one (User: Lence)

This seems to refer to te Turkish name for Hungarian language in fact, nothing to do with Macacas. LHOON 22:15, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Racism comment...gotta go

George Allen is weeks away from being removed from office...All due to his racism comment.

Inaccuracy of CNN article

I removed the citation that was mentioned here: ( http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/01/07/word.of.the.year/index.html?eref=rss_topstories) about "macaca"/"macaca moment" being the runner-up in the American Dialect Society 2007 Word of the Year vote. If you read the press release on the ADS site here ( http://www.americandialect.org/Word-of-the-Year_2006.pdf ), "prohibited liquids" clearly edged out "macaca" in the tally.

I think the confusion lies in the fact that the American Name Society had selected "Macaca" as a runner up to "Pluto" (NOT "plutoed", which ADS voted to win). Mariana 07:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Use of "Macaca" in Funny Lady

Watching FUNNY LADY last night, near the end of the movie the Billy Rose character mocks the Fanny Brice (Streisand) character's radio show, calling it "that macaca radio show." Hmmmm... Was that a specific slur vs. the owners or others on the radio show? A phrase Rose himself used a lot? A phrase used in the Jewish or Yiddish speaking community that has some unknown or other meaning? Or another example of the slur-ish use of the word described here? Just thought it was interesting enough to mention here. Carol Moore carolmooredc18:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The GOP's attempt to avoid "macaca" moments

'Sup, guys.

I noticed that this article already has a mention of the GOP and their attempts to avoid another "macaca" moment, but didn't notice a source. I found a good source on this, complete with relevant excerpts from a GOP handbook in PDF form.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/06/14/gop-issues-rules-to-avoid-another-macaca-moment/

--Ferrarimanf355 22:01, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Photo

Hey folks... I was driving through Fairfax, VA and snapped a picture of a vanity license plate with MCACAS on it. I have the picture but if you wanna get a quick looksie, check this out. Could/Should this be in the article? Just wonderin. Qb | ^{your 2 cents} 19:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The phrase "Macaca Effect"

Someone really needs to add something about the phrase "macaca effect" and how it's used in high-tech. I just heard it referenced this way the other day on Comedy Central. While the phrase "macaca effect" originally referenced the Virginia Senate race, it has taken on an entirely new meaning in the high-tech industry. Journalist Liz Davidson writes:

What is the "macaca effect"? First of all, what is a macaca? A "macaca" is a racial pejorative to refer to someone either from or with ancestry from India or Pakistan. And the "macaca effect" is pejorative used by people in high tech to refer to East Indians driving down the wages of American and British workers. In many fields (computer programming, engineering, medicine, nursing, accounting, etc.) companies are faking labor shortages to acquire H1B visas and hire East Indians, with the net effect of driving down the wages of American and British employees. Thus, one hears disgruntled employees talking about the "macaca effect."

http://www.magic-city-news.com/Guest_Column_89/What_is_the_Macaca_Effect10562.shtml

--Ramesh0909 (talk) 16:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

No, someone does not need to add that. One reference in one newspaper is not noteworthy. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I googled it and there are many references to "macaca effect" in high tech by various authors. I added one in external links. I agree that there should be a section on "macaca effect" in high tech. I've heard this phrase used a few times recently in engineering. --Luther77 (talk) 18:11, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I concur the section should be added. I'll put it back. --Bhadraksh (talk) 21:25, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

"Wikipedia's 'Macaca' Problem"

Anybody else read this article [3] about our "macaca" entry today? Don't know that I necessarily agree with any of this guy's analysis, but I thought contributors to this article might be interested to see it all the same. -- Khazar (talk) 05:34, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I just read is as well and the author of the article does make a good point. Looking at the article, the section on the 2006 Virginia Senate race is entirely unsourced, although the Slate article itself can serve as a source for some of the claims. The case made for 'macaca' being a racial slur is pretty strong, the references are clear - definitely not obscure or 'out of field'. This article also states Allen said did not know of this connection (also needs a ref though). So far, the article does adhere to the WP:NPOV guidelines. As for this article being created only after the incident, I think this is common practice: the subject in some way generates attention, people do their research and create an article on Wikipedia - a reader cannot blame WP for not thinking of an article before, as it is the work of individuals who just happen to want to write about something. The references are from sources that have been around for some time, no one created them after the incident. Status quo is a properly sourced article on a racial slur, with an unsourced paragraph on the incident that made it famous. As long as Allen's viewpoint is properly represented and that paragraph gets referenced, allegations of bias have more to do with the reader than with the article itself. Cheers, Pim Rijkee (talk) 10:53, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I read the article by Slate. I'm a frequent editor of wikipedia, and I would be very disappointed if Wilson was right. We need to fact check it.--Jerzeykydd (talk) 03:01, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I am a wikipedian and a fan of Slate. I think Wilson is right. This article is not up to wiki standards. It has an awful lot to say about the term Macaque, and almost nothing about the term Macaca. What up with that? I believe the sourceable content comes down to it being SIMILAR to a racial slur, and people jumping on it with no sourcing to build it into a story. That is what is verifiable. That it is similar to another word used as a racial slur is fascinating, but mostly irrelevant. But then again, maybe I am just the house nagger. Ratagonia (talk) 04:25, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Reviewing the source ( http://www.lpca.socsci.uva.nl/aps/tshibumba3b.html#They put a monkey inside ), the ONE and ONLY source for the claim that it is a racial epithet, I find it very, very weak. The footnotes were written by the interviewer (it seems) rather than by the distinguished interviewee. ONE footnote in a reputable but obscure journal does not source a derogatory statement about a living person. If it really was a racial epithet in common usage, it would show up in many places. It does not, or, at least, did not until this fabricated controversy. It is time we re-edited the article to what is actually verifiable per Jimmy's vision. Ratagonia (talk) 04:42, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I came here after reading the slate article as well, I don't agree with its the assessment. Cataloging Racial slurs has never been a priority on Wikipedia. The entire argument is based on the article creation date falling after it's usage. Another way to look at it could be that it wasn't notable enough before this, there are many obscure, new and local slangs that are added everyday, if their entries didn't exist before it doesn't mean that they weren't used. I understand its hard to find reputable third-part sources to verify, but I suppose that's the nature of racial epithets. Did we not know what 'truthiness' meant until it had an article, it was added to the English dictionary subsequently. It was only a matter of time until it got enough media attention. 59.180.26.147 (talk) 10:01, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Let's not mince words -- this article is about the George Allen incident more than the term itself. That makes it a WP:COATRACK article and that is a big problem. Not only does it mostly talk about Allen, the rest of the article exists only to say that the central disputed fact of that incident is not disputable. Stripped of Allen, all this article says is that the term has a definition and gives a few anecdotal uses of it or a cognate. By that standard every word in every language would have a Wikipedia article. To the extent it is true, it is just a regional variation of the sadly common European slur that Black people are "monkeys". I'm sure every English speaker here has heard that one yet it isn't even mentioned on the monkey disambiguation. Our own slur for the macaca-hurlers is most commonly "frog". It gets a mention on the dab at least but no article. But then why would it? An article about a term should only exist if there is content beyond merely cataloguing of it. Allen aside this is a dictionary article at best and a disputed one at worst. It shouldn't exist here. --JGGardiner (talk) 21:38, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Request for concurrence - remove weakly-sourced reference to macaca as a racial epithet from this article

Per discussion above, can we have concurrence for removing the weakly-sourced reference to macaca as a racial epithet from this article? Editors? Ratagonia (talk) 04:42, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Concur: I agree that it should be removed as the term's definition. However, if what Wilson alleges here is correct, and this article became a reference for ongoing news coverage of the incident, I wonder if Wikipedia hasn't become part of the story here, and that the article should still include a mention within the text that a previous version of the article was based on that reference and helped popularize the notion. I also wonder if this article might need a rename if we discard that reference (as I think I'm persuaded we should). Macaca (slur) doesn't seem quite fair if we can't find more than this single obscure use to demonstrate that it even is a slur. (Though macaque has more of a case). Perhaps "Macaca incident" would be a more neutral title? The incident got so much coverage, and has been referenced so many times since then, that I think it could stand alone. Some of the theories presented here as to the term/slur's origins could then stay, if they could be referenced to reliable sources. -- Khazar (talk) 05:07, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree as well, upon review of this article, the sources are very very weak supporting this term as a slur.. I've spent the last half hour looking online and cannot find definitive evidence that the term is indeed a slur, or is anything other than a french word for monkey. I have found many articles alleging it is a slur, but not anything that is in the least bit scholarly or offering true research on the subject - its all just conjecture and tertiary sourcing from what I can tell. Both of which I would note are violations of WP:OR. Unless we have an authoritative source that says "Macaca is a slur" (which we do not have) then we should not say such in this article. The most I think we could say with the current sources given is that "macaca is alleged to be slur by X", then balance that out with the number of source that argue it is not a slur. —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 13:04, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Proposed new title - Macaque (slur) ???

Thank you for the concurrence and the changes, which work fairly well. I'd like to suggest that the proper title for the article would be Macaque (slur) since this is the word that is actually a racial slur, and that the bulk of the article is about. Redirect from Macaca. The Macaca Incident listed as related but unclear... as currently written. A pronunciation note on Macaque would help. (I am a recovering Wikiaddict and am not proficient at doing some of these things. Also, this is a visible and sensitive article, so I seek concurrence before making significant changes, to avoid both edit warring and hurt feelings (mine?)) Ratagonia (talk) 16:05, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Concur--makes sense to me. -- Khazar (talk) 16:16, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Actually this was named Macaca (slur) until very recently. Charles Edward moved it to ... (term) just a moment ago. I personally have no strong opinions so I'll just drop a message to him and ask him to come hear and discuss this. Cheers! Zakhalesh (talk) 16:18, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I would not strongly object to changing the title back to slur, but I do have some objections. Primarily, "macaque" definitely is a french slur. "Macaca" is maybe not a slur though, because they are pronounced differently.. If we moved the article "macaque", I think that might be best. I am just having a hard time connecting the dots where "macaca" became a corruption of "macaque" in English. I hope that makes some sense. :) We essentially have two words that sound similar, but are not necessarily related. All the sources given are pointing at the french word, and the only example of it in an English context is the use by Allen himself. There is no connection between the two, other than some conjecture in sources that are not authoritative on the subject. So.. I would propose moving to "macaque (slur)" rather than "macaca (slur)", as that is more definitively accurate. —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 16:32, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I am fluent in French, btw. "Macaque" would be pronounced "Maw-cok", not "maw-ka-ka". —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 16:35, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Considering that whether or not the word is a slur is highly debatable, I strongly disagree that the title should be changed back to slur.--Jerzeykydd (talk) 19:09, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Jerzey, just to be clear, do you mean it shouldn't be changed back to "Macaca (slur)" or that it shouldn't be changed to "Macaque (slur)", as Ratagonia and Charles proposed? Thanks! -- Khazar (talk) 19:39, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that the current title of the article, which is Macaca (term), should stay as is. This is because whether or not the words macaca and macaque are slurs are highly debatable. Saying that it's simply a term is objective and avoids controversy. That's my opinion.--Jerzeykydd (talk) 21:04, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. It's a close call for me. I think there's sufficient evidence that macaque (not macaca) can be used as a slur that I think it would be fine to have the article there. But Charles Edward's edits to the lead today make Macaca (term) work better than it did a few days ago, I think. That allows the section on both the history of macaque as a racial slur (it does seem clear to me that it's been used this way in at least limited contexts) and the Macaca Incident. I'd hate to lose bits like macaca being nominated for word of the year by the ADS, which Macaque (slur) might not include. So after today's edits, and the WP:COATRACK point in a separate thread above, I'd like to change my vote to a weak Keep at Macaca (term). -- Khazar (talk) 22:49, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I think this article should use a "Macaca" title rather than a "Macaque" one. The intened subject of this article was "macaca". The "macaque" bits are just there as anecdotal evidence that macaca is a slur. It is troubling that this incidental evidence overwhelmed the article to the extent it can be mistaken for the subject. I believe that happened because this article never had anything to say about the subject. It is merely a poorly-sourced assertion of a single trivial fact -- that "macaca" is a racial slur. --JGGardiner (talk) 09:25, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Excellent work, Wikipedians. I believe, as re-written, the article is now up to snuff, and am happy with the location at Macaca (term), for the reasons stated above. I believe we have properly cleaned up this rather unimportant article to wikepedia standards. Thanks all for your participation. Ratagonia (talk) 04:12, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Bias

This entire article now reads like a promotion of George Allen, taking the media to task for victimizing a poor old man who routinely makes up words that don't mean anything. It's a load of shit and everyone who helped fudge this particular project should feel ashamed of this kind of behavior. 208.118.163.99 (talk) 20:56, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, thanks for the feedback, but cussing everyone out isn't really the solution here. If you can give us some reliable sources on this incident you feel are being overlooked, that might be a better starting point for the conversation. -- Khazar (talk) 21:22, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Re-reading the article after 9 months of absence, it reads fine to me. Does not seem like a promotion to me, seems utterly neutral. Just the facts, ma'am. Ratagonia (talk) 06:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, missed the IP User's change to the text. I reverted - I think the original clearly stated the facts of the case in a neutral manner, and is therefore appropriate for the wiki. If you disagree, please bring the discussion here before changing again, and get consensus from a few editors. Ratagonia (talk) 06:58, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Article needs a lot of work

I'll put a more detailed description here later today of my reasoning behind the tags so we can come to a consensus/get this done, heading out now. --Padenton (talk) 12:39, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

racists often call black people "macaco"

I suggest this sentence be modified. I find it impossible to believe there is any data to support this assertion as fact. Is somebody credible going to conduct a poll about the usage of the word "Macaca" among Portuguese who self-identify as racists? (talk) 20:49, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

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