Talk:Mabyn

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

Christianity: Saints Low‑importance

	Christianity portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Saints portal This article is supported by WikiProject Saints (assessed as Low-importance).

Cornwall Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cornwall, an attempt to improve and expand Wikipedia coverage of Cornwall and all things Cornish. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project member page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.CornwallWikipedia:WikiProject CornwallTemplate:WikiProject CornwallCornwall-related articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

See drop-down box for suggested article edit guidelines:

Be bold - if you know something about Cornwall then put it in! We value your contributions and don't be afraid if your spelling isn't great as there are plenty of spelling and grammar experts on clean-up duty!
Articles on settlements in Cornwall should be written using the standard set of headings approved by the UK geography WikiProject's guideline How to write about settlements.
At WikiProject Cornwall we subscribe to the policies laid down by Wikipedia - particularly civility and consensus building. We are aware that the wording on Cornish entries can sometimes be a contentious topic, especially those concerning geography. You don't have to agree with everything but there is no excuse for rudeness and these things are best solved through consensus building and compromise. For more information see WP:CornwallGuideline.
These pages are not platforms for political discussion. Issues relating to Cornish politics should be restricted to those pages that directly deal with these issues (such as Constitutional status of Cornwall, Cornish nationalism, etc) and should not overflow into other articles.
Most of all have fun editing - that's the reason we all do this, right?!

Women's History Low‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Women in Religion Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of the Women in Religion WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Women in religion. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Women in ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject Women in ReligionTemplate:WikiProject Women in ReligionWomen in Religion articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Article name change without consensus

I think it was incorrect to change the article name to Mabyn given that for at least the past 200 years she has been known as Mabena and there are records as far back as 1424 where she was called Mabena. The stained glass window in the church titles her Mabena as does the church history literature inside the church. The church is dedicated to St Mabena. Teapotgeorge^Talk 18:14, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The following references call her Mabena.

[edit conflict]I moved the article from Saint Mabena to Mabyn since that's the form used in the given source. There are many alternate forms and spelling for the name (Mabon, Mabina, etc.), and the Latinized form "Mabena" has become relatively common, as Teapotgeorge indicates, but I don't see that it's significantly better known. A Google Books search for Saint Mabyn returns hundreds more hits than Saint Mabena. It's hard to separate out references to the village of St Mabyn, but most sources mentioning the saint also mention the village and church, as she's known for virtually nothing else. If we're going to go against the source I'd like to see some good evidence for it, that is, other reliable sources using a different form.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:46, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Most of those are not reliable sources, and some are just Wikipedia mirrors or material copied from Wikipedia. The only good source you've given Orme's The Saints of Cornwall, actually uses Mabyn. This is also used in Sabine Baring-Gould's The Lives of the Saints.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:02, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So I have given 10 references as opposed to your one but mine are not reliable? The Saints of Cornwall reference uses both Mabyn and Mabena as you well know. Surely you can see that if the actual church refers to her as St Mabena in all it's literature then I have a fairly strong case? I do live here and can assure you that she is NOT known as Mabyn here at all...she is most definitely Mabena.Teapotgeorge^Talk 19:25, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your second reference Sabine Baring-Gould's The Lives of the Saints ALSO calls her Mabena. Teapotgeorge^Talk 19:39, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but most of those sources are not reliable, and per WP:COMMONNAME we follow usage in reliable sources for article titles. VisWiki and Wapedia are just Wikipedia mirrors; Yahoo Answers is a forum (and the post just ripped a list of saints from Wikipedia), one source is a blog and four more are personal websites. stmabyncornwall.co.uk only uses "Saint Mabena" in a link to Wikipedia! The Orme book does discuss Mabena but the entry for her is under Mabyn, which is why I moved the page here in the first place; the same with Bering-Gould. The Google results also favor Mabyn. Perhaps this should go through a requested move.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:52, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:COMMONNAME states "Common usage in reliable sources is preferred to technically correct but rarer forms, whether the official name, the scientific name, the birth name, the original name or the trademarked name." Are you saying that St Mabyn Church is incorrect in having been dedicated to St Mabena for the past 500 years? Teapotgeorge^Talk 20:02, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All I'm saying is that from what I can tell, "Mabyn" is the "common usage in reliable sources", "such as those used as references for the article". This is preferred to the "official name" evidently used by the local church, which is even still known as St Mabyn Church. This discussion isn't going anywhere; if you want to do a requested move or seek a third opinion please do so.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:26, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your arrogance is breathtaking. Teapotgeorge^Talk 20:30, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jafeluv (talk) 12:00, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mabyn → Mabena — After many years with no disputes Cúchullain ^t/c rewrote and changed the article for Saint Mabena to Mabyn using a single reference [1] which incidentally also uses the form Mabena as well. The saint is more commonly referred to using the Latin form "Mabena" and indeed St Mabyn Church is dedicated to Saint Mabena [2]

St Neots Church Cornwall depicts her in a stained glass window as Mabena (1. St. Mabena, a female crowned, one of the daughters of the foregoing King Brechan ; she bears a palm branch in her right hand, and an open book in her left. The neighbouring church of St. Mabyn is dedicated to her. Inscription: " St. Mabena, pray for us.")[3]

St Mabyn Parish Church has a 200 year old stained glass window inscribed Saint Mabena [4] Mabena is the common form of reference for the saint locally and has been for 500 years NOT Mabyn. I request that the article name be changed back to the less controversial and more commonly used form of Mabena..—Teapotgeorge^Talk 21:20, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, obviously. "Mabyn" is the form used in the source for this article, Nicholas Orme's The Saints of Cornwall, published by Oxford UP (prior to the introduction of this source, the only reference was a personal website, a self-published source). Orme's book does discuss the Latin "Mabena" as one of the various alternate forms of the name ("Mabon" is also common), but uses "Mabyn" as the entry title. As per WP:COMMONNAME, in choosing article titles, "we follow the usage of reliable sources, such as those used as references for the article." In this case the reliable sources lean to Mabyn, so so should we.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:04, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, per Cuchullain. Cavila (talk) 13:53, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.