Talk:Māori language influence on New Zealand English

Article title

Since natural titles are generally preferred, I'd like to propose moving this to Māori influence on New Zealand English. Tuf-Kat 04:29, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

done. Kahuroa 04:58, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

References needed

Nice article. Engari but I have tagged it as needing references. I am particularly interested in verification that use of some of the terms is sufficiently widespread that they can be considered part of NZ English. Particular cases are "Makariri nē?" and "tēnā kōrua". Re the statement that "buggered" is often equated with "pakaru" - is this suggesting that "buggered" is derived from "pakaru"? If so, reputable references please. Refs needed too regarding eh (its use in other countries casts some doubt) - the hedging of bets in "thought to possibly" strengthens the doubts. Nurg 08:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. "Makariri nē?" souns more like code switching - bilingual people inserting sentences from one language into another - than something you'd hear in NZ English per se. Kahuroa 08:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

• I think you are right about "Makariri nē" but when I lived in Northland I heard it widely used by many people, Māori and Pakeha. Regarding 'pakaruru' I would guess that it was word that adopted from English, spent some time in te reo and then started to migrate back into English. ping 08:46, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The pakaru/buggered thing is an old chestnut that has been kicked around since Adam was a pup. Last I heard the experts were thinking the similarity is just a coincidence. Kahuroa 09:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

That's what I thought. Have deleted that sentence. Nurg 10:25, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Could this count as a reference?

This article [1] from the New Zealand Herald freely uses the Māori words powhiri, kaumatua, hongi and haka with no explaination of the terms at all, thus demonstrating them to be accepted as part of NZ English. Maybe we could include a list of such articles and this may provide the references that this article is lacking. GringoInChile 21:19, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

KiwiTanga as a Hybridization

Is "kiwitanga" really a good example of a hybridization? What's it a hybridization of? Maori and which other language? The article itself says that "kiwi" is a Maori word. While technically you could argue that kiwi is an English word when using it in an English sentence, that doesn't really sit too well with me personally. I think it gives a confusing impression. Just a thought though. 125.236.211.165 (talk) 08:27, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

whats in other

im from the south island but dunedin so im not surround by maoris or maori speakers or nothing but i recognised more words from the other [unfamiliar] list than i did the common words one and i think most people would too. maybe only one list or reorganisation is needed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.62.219 (talk) 06:42, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Ain't NZ English

I'm sorry but as far as I am concerned most, perhaps all... of the words listed are simply maori. To say that Aotearoa, haka, hangi, hui, iwi, kia ora, Pakeha, tamariki, tapu, whanau, aroha, haere mai. ka pai, kai, taniwha, te reo, waiata, whakapapa, whare, wharepaku... To name a few is New Zealand ENGLISH is absurd. They are just widely used MAORI words... Widely used by maori that is. I have never in my life used ANY of the maori words listed here as part of english, only ever as maori... when we were forced to learn it at school. I, Nor anyone I know... Use maori words as part of New Zealand English.210.185.17.202 (talk) 04:28, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

It depends which group of people you hang with. If you move in the Auckland or Wellington chattering class circles of people who are aspiring Russell Browns a lot of these words would indeed be used. If you are among the Auckland Westie circles or from Hawkes Bay or East Coast (Gisborne) I have seen 100% European stock people use a few of these terms. If you are just someone from Canterbury, then no, these terms are as foreign as Vergangenheitsbewältigung. --JNZ (talk) 22:51, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Word lists

Some of the previous comments are saying, I think, that the word list is not realistic in that many of the words are not actually "part of New Zealand English". Some of them could not be used in an English-language newspaper unless a translation is provided. I would suggest that we prune the list and eliminate any words that have not appeared in dictionaries of New Zealand English. Kahuroa (talk) 20:57, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I've popped in a few references to real usage - which I think is a good way to go. I'd suggest avoiding quotes from Maori, or even usage in Maori contexts - the real test is whether a word is used generally. I'd suggest that haka, manau, kai and puku certainly do. Snori (talk) 17:22, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, usage is a good way to go. I guess you mean mana there when you say manau. Kahuroa (talk) 19:57, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, too much coffee...Snori (talk) 04:32, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I vote that tutu is moved up to the common usage - I hear that a lot in Northland - used by non-reo speakers. I also hear mahi & whakarongo-mai - although the latter 2 are more often by bilingual speakers -esp since mahi has some nuances that 'work' does not connotate - it seems to translate better to vocation than to work per se. EMcnaughton (WMF) (talk 21:39, 18 January 2016 (UTC

Influence of Education

Most early childhood centres ,and primary schools now seem to be integrating a lot of Maori words and phrases into their lessons especially body parts-waewae,ringaringa etc and colours-kowhai/yellow, and numbers.This is done mainly through songs. Also quite common on NZ made English language, children's TV. A range of Maori greetings and farewells also being used.Kakite ano. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.58.186.217 (talk) 04:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Thats really cool, if you have a source room can definitly be found in this article to place that info.Beefcake6412 (talk) 04:50, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Haka, Pakeha, Aotearoa

To me as a non-New Zealander, Haka, Pakeha, and Aotearoa are 3 words which I would have at least half-expected to find in this article, but which are nowhere to be seen. Due to its use in All Blacks Rugby, haka is probably the most widely known Maori word worldwide (with the possible exception of 'Maori' itself). I don't know how widely used Pakeha (White) is, but I vaguely remember it being used by an Antipodean Prime Minister (though it might have been an Australian one if the term is somehow also used in Australia for White Australians, which would somewhat surprise me, given the very different origins of New Zealand Maoris and Australian Aborigines). I've also seen Aotearoa (New Zealand) used in a few articles though I'm not 100% sure it was being used as an English word (rather than as 'Aotearoa, the Maori name for New Zealand'). As a non-New Zealander I don't feel competent to deal with these words in the article myself, but there are presumably New Zealander editors who are competent to do so.Tlhslobus (talk) 05:42, 4 November 2017 (UTC) Having seemingly got no response so far, I've now decided to add in all the above (plus Maori and kiwi) in a single sentence, backed by citations of their definitions as English words of Maori origin in Oxford Dicitonaries .Tlhslobus (talk) 01:37, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Merge Proposal

This article does not meet notability: it has no properly used reliable sources and is an original research essay. Rather than propose deletion, I think it would be a constructive addition to the New Zealand English article, hence my merge suggestion. Opinions welcome. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 22:54, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree with the merge proposal. I would suggest not removing any content, even though there's a lack of reliable sources, and instead encouraging the addition of more references. There must be something more up to date than the single article from 1984 given as further reading. Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 00:39, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Agree that this article should be merged. — Hugh (talk) 00:57, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Andersen

I chose not to comment when I read the source yesterday, but as Nurg has mentioned it, so will I. Andersen simply confirms that Maori words began to be used as foreign words in English (hence italics and explanation notes) but by the 1940s many had become so commonly used that they had become incorporated into English as English words, without the need for italics or macrons - unlike the need to distinguish long vowels, with macrons, when using those words in the Maori language. MANY Maori words are now in such common use that they may be regarded as incorporated in the English language. Since the start of this Journal fifty-four years ago, these words have been printed in italic, sometimes with interpretation following in brackets, but latterly as often as not in italics only. It is felt that for many of the words there is no longer any need for the italic, seeing that most of our readers will have them in their English vocabulary, spoken or written. This clearly means that if we are using macrons today for these common words of Maori origin (eg kakapo), we are using them, in NZ English, as foreign (Maori) words again. That is all well and good, but we should not say that the 'correct' spelling of words like kūmara is with a macron, because it depends if you are using the word as an English or Maori word. I do not like using the term loanword because its precise meaning is not clearly established and it can lead to ambiguity. This is I hope a one off observation: I do not want to enter into another drawn out debate about macrons. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 11:14, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

I thought that was an interesting article to add, to note that recognition of both Māori loanwords and the importance of macrons dates back to the 1940s. Loanword is commonly used by linguists, and is not all that ambiguous. Andersen summarises it well: words "now in such common use that they may be regarded as incorporated in the English language" and don't need to be written in italics. Loanwords usually drop their accents, but increasingly in NZ English we use a macron on them, just like we would in the orginal Māori. For two years you've, at great length, defended your belief that a word that uses a macron is not by definition English; not even a foreign word that retains its orthography, like café, just not an English word at all. This is in defiance of actual linguists (as you'll recall, I even interviewed one specially for that debate, who said, I quote, "the conventions surrounding using Māori loanwords in New Zealand English is changing to take recognition of Māori grammar and spelling.") It seems not many Wikipedians agree with you either, based on the latest RfC. But I agree; there's no sense restarting a debate here, as you've made your position repeatedly clear and have nothing new to add; I'm only adding these links in case someone arriving at this comment thinks it represents consensus, or even a common view. —Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 22:22, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Giantflightlessbirds, I am quite astonished at the misreading of Anderson, which is a source confirming my position entirely. Your other source is original research and hearsay and even if taken as reliable, it has been misinterpreted by you. Where does it contradict my view? It is saying that words that have been incorporated into English (loan words) are now starting to be used as Maori words again (foreign words). As I have repeatedly said, technically a 'foreign' word is still part of English simply because it is used in English, but the connection is weak, unlike an incorporated loanword. The term loanword is ambiguous at times (as is 'foreign' word) and so should be used with care. A loan word is from the position of the lending language; when it reaches the receiving language it is a borrowed word. Loanword however, is often used when borrowed word is meant, hence ambiguity. Your, and others, edits regarding this topic are full of contradictions and exceptions, caused I suggest, by a basic misunderstanding of what is happening with English in NZ at the moment. I would agree with most of the changes made by many editors, even the editing NZ macronauts, but I would reach the position by following different reasoning. The problem you have in following the wrong path is that when questions are raised or exceptions appear, you are unable to address them properly because the underlying reasoning is flawed. The examples you give above is a perfect example of that. You are misreading sources, using hearsay, using primary sources and so on. Anderson is a perfect source that confirms (part of) my reasoning, not yours. He is saying many Maori words began as foreign words but became incorporated as borrowed words over time. They are now English words, just like a third of the words used in English today that had foreign language origins. I have pinged you due to the lengthy gap, although I don't necessarily expect a reply. Others might comment though. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 03:06, 20 August 2023 (UTC)