Talk:Lucas Hernandez

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Name

According to the French civil status, his official name is Lucas Hernandez, he is born in France, foreign accent as á, is strictly prohibited by the IGREC (general instruction relating to civil status) check official sources and https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Demande_de_renommage/Archives36#Lucas_Hernandez_(football,_1996)_(h_%E2%80%A2_j_%E2%80%A2_%E2%86%B5_%E2%80%A2_Ren.)_vers_Lucas_Hernandez_(h_%E2%80%A2_j_%E2%80%A2_%E2%86%B5) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.161.250.175 (talk) 11:31, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do you guys think if we should rename it? In the surname list of Hernández, both two French's names are left out the accent, Gérard Hernandez and Patrick Hernandez. @Quite A Character and Mattythewhite: Oh là là oh le le (talk) 12:53, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't notice that discussion before doing an RM, looks like a reality that we don't use accents here. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 14:59, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

IPA

Hello @Quite A Character: I found nobody pronouncing [lykɑ] on YouTube. 14.220.228.144 (talk) 07:55, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello there. Please stop adding YouTube as a source to WP articles, they are not considered reliable here OK? Thank you for listening. --Quite A Character (talk) 17:08, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How can you say YouTube is not a reliable source? The pronunciations are made by French commentators and reporters. Thanks. 14.220.229.189 (talk) 12:51, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK, i give up (and you most certainly can believe me when i say YT is not acceptable here, please read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links#Linking_to_user-submitted_video_sites)! But two are enough, no need for SEVEN. Also, i have improved their display.

Hopefully now, a compromise has been reached. Best wishes --Quite A Character (talk) 20:36, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your improving. 14.220.229.189 (talk) 23:25, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Lucas Hernández which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 18:19, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 23 October 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No Consensus to move - Both numerically and in terms of the strength of their arguments the move and oppose !voters were very roughly equal here. Frankly I sympathised with Red Slash's point about people choosing their own names, but Iggy's point about what EN-language sources say was not without merit. This close is entirely without prejudice to holding another move discussion further down the line. If I was to make a suggestion, it would be that statistical data about which name is more commonly used in sources might be a great tie-breaker here, though I appreciate this may be hard to get for whether or not diacriticals are used or not. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 09:55, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lucas Hernandez → Lucas Hernández – Per discussion at Talk:Lucas Hernández (footballer, born 1992), it appears to be agreement that this one should be moved whence it came (i.e. with the accent on the a in his surname). Per me at that talk discussion linked early on, the accent appears to be his common spelling. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 19:16, 23 October 2021 (UTC)— Relisting. Havelock Jones (talk) 16:37, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per comments above (under section header Talk:Lucas Hernandez#Name]. As those comments have already pointed out, the French do not use Spanish accents, as exemplified by the provided names Gérard Hernandez and Patrick Hernandez. Subject is a French citizen, born in France and his French Wikipedia entry does not depict an accent. His footballer father Jean-François Hernandez, likewise born in France, also does not use an accent. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:24, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support this news article + this reference for example have the accent above the a in that surname. Also see their official website. (public computer edit) 46.149.249.106 (talk) 11:46, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, per above. Spanish diacritics are not used in the names of French people, even if it's a Spanish name. Most of the sources which spell his name with the diacritic are either working on the incorrect assumption that it's spelled that way or are basing it on the article title here before it was moved in January 2019. Mattythewhite (talk) 13:10, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Ah right, with that in mind, I have checked the "French people of Spanish descent" category and noticed a couple of stand out examples which follows this example (i.e. no accent - Olivier Martinez (footballer), Stéphane Hernandez, Christian Lopez (footballer) etc.). I always believed, as seen on Talk:Lucas Hernández (footballer, born 1992) that if he spells that surname with the accent that it would be common spelling therefore it could be moved back by common name. I wasn't entirely sure why it was moved in 2019 as I said earlier this month when I noticed in the news from the football talk page that the accent was missing. I should not think anymore that the current title is a problem with WP:COMMONNAME even though the accent is commonly spelt per links that the IP address issued above. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 14:57, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. Giant Snowman 17:51, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom and my comments at the other RM. Giant Snowman 17:55, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. He uses this spelling on his jersey, so if it's how he spells his own name and the club uses it too, it would be the correct article name. The 'incorrect assumption that its spelled that way' doesn't make sense given the player himself spells it like that, so it has to be the correct spelling. I also disagree with the "the country of France doesn't use it for French people argument", given I'm from Canada, no names have accents according to Canadian English in any official status, yet there are players such as Steven Vitória with international names for whom we still use accents because that's how they spell their own name in its proper form. RedPatch (talk) 01:17, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Whether an individual *likes* their name to be spelled a certain way shouldn't be the decisive factor, especially when sources are divided on the spelling. While his profile on his club's official site use the diacritic, his French Football Federation profile does not, and neither does L'Équipe (which, in my experience, is very useful for the spelling of French player names). Primary sources like official social media pages ought to be avoided, even with regards to the spelling of names; I've quoted them before in RMs but they're largely not taken into consideration. And the use of diacritics on shirt names aren't particularly useful: he wouldn't be the first player to have diacritics on his shirt name when they aren't actually present in their official or commonly used names. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:57, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - Oh yes, good point. In England you see this player play with dots below the beginning and end letters but the article title is certainly not titled based on his name on those shirts. As I pointed out that French people of Spanish surnames have no accents like the three I mentioned here, this article could stay put based on the existing category entries plus what I've used as an example of a player from the Premier League. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 14:43, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - my view on that has changed since the explanation above. The links I used above must have been dated before 2019. 46.149.249.106 (talk) 10:07, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support - rofl, I didn't know that people who live in France forfeit the right to have THEIR OWN SURNAMES spelled properly. "Oh no, France doesn't put the accent mark!" Yeah, well if this dude does, then his name should reflect that. Red Slash 18:24, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- How do we decide whether a surname is being spelled 'properly'? Different places have different naming conventions. Are we going to propose that Christian Pulisic be moved to Christian Pulišić because we're not following the original spelling? Mattythewhite (talk) 19:28, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - ... holy cow. WE don't decide. The person decides. If they spell their name using a diacritic, we use the diacritic. If they don't spell their name using it, we don't use it. Red Slash 21:25, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - Shall we close this discussion and not move the page? I don't think there is enough consensus to move that page whence it came. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 09:36, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      - We could post it to the Wiki:Footy Talk page to see if more people would like to weigh in. I know I personally don't often check the RM list, whereas I do check the Talk page frequently. Others who do the same may be interested in weighing in if they see it posted there asking for a comment. RedPatch (talk) 13:51, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This is the English language Wikipedia, so we should follow what English language sources do, not French ones (or the French language Wikipedia). Spike 'em (talk) 13:23, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, with that in mind Soccerbase has no accent, likewise with Sky Sports with that report. There will be other sources with no accent in there as time goes by as well. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 21:00, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. This is how he spells his own name on his jersey and on his twitter. Per WP:DIACRITICS, the use of modified letters is neither encouraged or discouraged, so I see no reason to omit the accent. Combefere ❯❯❯ Talk 00:42, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above. He is French, not Spanish, and reliable sourcing is split. What it says on the jersey is not a determining factor here, and in any case some jerseys such as that at File:FRA-ARG (8).jpg don't include a diacritic. If sourcing which would otherwise include diacritics routinely don't include it, then neither should we as English is by default a no-diacritic language. — Amakuru (talk) 12:04, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.