Talk:Louis C.K./Archives/2017

Is phonographic films really a thing?

In the lead paragraph there is a sentence containing, "he was directing surreal short phonographic films". What is a phonographic film?

I found this reference to early films, but no mention of that term.

Aaron S. Kurland (talk) 18:16, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

i too was wondering about that. any chance it's a typo for PORNOGRAPIC? 209.172.23.51 (talk) 04:47, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Obviously a bit of drive-by vandalism that slipped through. Mezigue (talk) 21:05, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Nationality redux

There is still regular back-and-fro to add/remove "Mexican" in the opening paragraph, so I thought I'd check the Manual of Style:

Context (location or nationality);

In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.

Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.

As such, though C.K. is of Mexican origin and may well have a dual nationality, he is an "American comedian" in the sense that he does comedy in the US. Mezigue (talk) 08:13, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Also, it should be noted that he was born in the United States, and that his ancestors were of 1/2 Irish Catholic, 1/4 Hungarian Jew, and 1/4 Mexican Catholic descent, so saying he is Mexican-American is quite definitely an odd and ill-supported claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:84:8901:6ACB:809A:3823:7232:83E6 (talk) 10:07, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

It is a fairly well-supported claim but it isn't Wikipedia policy to introduce people in this way. Mezigue (talk) 11:44, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

The above is a weird comment - His father was Mexican of various ancestries, and he's a Mexican citizen. We don't get to discount Mexicans of Hungarian Jewish background and claim they are less Mexican than those of Spanish Catholic decent. Imagine doing the same thing to US citizens - inappropriate! This claim is talking about citizenship not nationality or ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.1.212.67 (talk) 11:59, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with this too. He is a citizen, there is no gray area here. Malayy (talk) 12:09, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Not Mexican American

I tried to edit "Mexican" out of the first sentence, but I can't edit that section. He's not Mexican. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jasonnewyork (talk • contribs) 05:13, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Um, yes, he is. His father is from Mexico and C.K. was raised in Mexico City until he was 7. His first language is Spanish. Try again. 71.59.181.111 (talk) 21:22, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

His first language is most certainly NOT Spanish. I was just watching this video and clearly his Spanish is shit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHuX1dhxzc8

Louis CK is most certainly Mexican American. This is repeatedly established throughout the article itself. Please stop trying to erase this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.51.243.3 (talk) 00:57, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

In 2008 or 2009 I tried to edit it so that it said he was Mexican-American, but my edits were constantly reverted, because of the fact that he was actually born in Washington, DC. He is not Mexican-American, so I edited that part out.--71.94.223.245 (talk) 04:28, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

He is a Mexican citizen. Wikipedia puts people's nationality - not ethnicity - in the article's header. He has dual citizenship making him a Mexican-American. MrBlondNYC (talk) 09:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Would he not more accurately be an Irish-Mexican-American? --JeffJ (talk) 17:29, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

If we was an Irish CITIZEN, then yes. Again, this is not about his ethnicity. MrBlondNYC (talk) 02:57, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

If he is Mexican American then a citation needs to be included which one is currently not. I'm removing the reference. Frankly. even if by some far stretch of interpretation one decides he could be labeled Mexican-American, taht distinction certainly doesn't belong in the headline paragraph of the article because it is not at all relevant to his notability. Obama's article doesn't begin by calling him an Indonesian-American, despite the fact that Obama grew up in Indonesia and had citizenship there. Byates5637 (talk) 23:12, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, a person's nationality is a standard inclusion in the headers of all biographies on Wikipedia. Secondly, there are numerous cites from reliable sources in the article stating C.K.'s Mexican citizenship, making him a national of both the US and Mexico. Does anyone here know what "citizenship" or "nationality" means? Thirdly, there is no proof from any reliable source that Obama ever was an Indonesian citizen and Obama's nationality is irrelevant to this article. MrBlondNYC (talk) 01:32, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Really, people. An American citizen is an American, but a Mexican citizen is not Mexican? Think. MrBlondNYC (talk) 08:25, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

We're all quite capable of thinking well beyond the walls of your self-imposed semantic prison, MrBlondNYC. However if you insist that people with multiple citizenships be identified by phrases that are ambiguous to common usage and completely disregard how that person self identifies then I am going now to Charlize Theron's page to change her nationality to African-American. --OGRastamon (talk) 02:45, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

A citizen of Mexico is a Mexican. A citizen of the US is an American. That's not "semantics". That is the definition of the word. If you check the cites, he self-identifies as a dual citizen of Mexico and the US. Show me one cite in which he renounces his Mexican citizenship. If Charlize Theron is dual citizen, SOUTH African-American would be correct. Just like it would be for a dual citizen the US and any other country. MrBlondNYC (talk) 08:28, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

"SOUTH African-American"? Give me a break. Once again, we see politics dictating things on this site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.138.40.183 (talk) 03:46, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Africa is NOT a country...African is not a nationality. Louis holds dual citizenship. Geez — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ranchwhere (talk • contribs) 09:29, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

You people crack me up! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.22.93.237 (talk) 03:27, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

People get bothered when their world view is shattered, thats all. To most americans, they think Spaniards look like "typical" Mexicans [ie: looks like a native american/a short brown person]. Conversely a Mexican CANNOT look white to Americans either! It shatters their world view since they think Spaniards are what Mexicans are [brown]! Which is funny since Spaniards ARE white. And it even extends to black-slavery, most Americans think slavery was only in the USA...90% went to Latin America. SMH! Shatter the world views and keep CK listed as what he is - A Mexican!. 107.222.205.242 (talk) 107.222.205.242 (talk)

I disagree with user MrBlondNYC and agree with everyone else. Just because one user arbitrarily decides to misinterpret the use of hyphen-Americans doesn't mean he gets to hijack this article. Louis CK is an American born in America to a Mexican dad and an American mom. Other articles are steering away from using the hyphen-American descriptor and have started saying things like "Mexican-born American". Which is more precise and absolutely does not apply to Loui CK. I would like user MrBlondNYC to let others voice their opinions on this. It seems like the overwhelming majority think that the article should read "Louis CK is an American comedian..." Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 18:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

If he's a dual citizen of two countries, then yes it makes sense to list that (like the many Canadian American comedians). South Africa doesn't allow dual citizenship, so it's unlikely the same applies to Charlize Theron, though she's obviously originally from South Africa. Maybe the hyphen is the issue? I don't know, I'm not American. It seems the hyphen is used mostly for ancestry, rather than citizenship (ie Italian-Americans often don't have Italian citizenship but are of Italian decent). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.1.212.67 (talk) 11:57, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Guys. If someone is a birthright citizen of Mexico, and a birthright citizen of the US, and has professed love and pride and allegiance of both on many many occasions, this should not even be a discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.23.63.143 (talk) 05:00, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree with this. He is a citizen, there is no gray area here. Malayy (talk) 12:09, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Mexico considers him of Mexican nationality regardless of where he was born because his father was born in Mexico. Conversely, the United States considers him an American citizen because he was born in the United States. He's as Mexican American as a person can be, though for stylistic purposes the hyphen really should be deleted.Unklscrufy (talk) 07:01, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Please see "nationality redux" below. Mezigue (talk) 21:03, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

NYT Article on allegations

This just seems to be breaking. Per WP:NOTNEWS I don't think it should be added yet, but we should have a discussion about it. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:45, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

And now it's in the lead. I guess no one cares about Wp:Recentism anymore. NoMoreHeroes (talk) 15:33, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I think it's OK given the length of the lead and the serious impact on his career. Coretheapple (talk) 15:43, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't think this is going to go away anytime soon. In light of that, recentism won't really apply and I believe inclusion in the lead and article is appropriate. Having a movie premiere cancelled over the accusations is a clue as to how this is likely to destroy his career. -- ψλ ● ✉ 16:22, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

C.K.'s middle name

User Malayedit has added the name "Alberto" as C.K.'s middle name, citing Geni as a source. Is this really a reliable source? I feel like most sites of this type are self-published or have user-generated content. The only other mention to this name i could find is from an article that was published today on a Hong Kong site, possibly following the changes that were made to this article. WP:IRS states that editors must take particular care when writing biographical material about living persons. Contentious material about a living person that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately. -- (Radiphus) 09:00, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Louis Confesses

please update to include that louis has confessed to the allegations from NYT https://www.apnews.com/609afcc8e26e41aeaa77fd8a0b902ee2/The-Latest:-Louis-C.K.-expresses-remorse-for-behavior — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.251.175.198 (talk) 18:47, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Better source here: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/10/arts/television/louis-ck-statement.html -- (Radiphus) 18:52, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Improvements to the section titled "Sexual misconduct"

1. Apart from the allegations of sexual misconduct, the title of the sub-section should also refer to the effects of this story on several old and upcoming projects by the comedian to justify the inclusion of this content in the "Career" section.
2. The section should start with something like "after years of longstanding stories and circulating rumors of sexual misconduct..." to offer the reader an understanding of the background of this story.
3. It should be mentioned what exactly these allegations are about, as a reader with no knowledge on this issue might conclude that the comedian is being accused of raping these women. -- (Radiphus) 12:19, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Currently titled "2016–present: Horace and Pete and sexual misconduct backlash", this section starts off talking about The Cops, something which happened well after Horace and Pete. Shouldn't this be in some kind of order, for readability? 125.239.191.75 (talk) 09:11, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2017

This fool is not Mexican American. 47.148.35.153 (talk) 20:22, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime (open channel) 20:23, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I have changed it. Once again, for the upteenth time, the manual of style says this:

"Context (location or nationality); In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Mezigue (talk) 21:50, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

@Mezigue: What are you reading that justified the removal of this description? The citation describes why it is written as such. He has been a citizen of the United States of America and Mexico since he was born. Malayy (talk) 22:36, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

The entire part I just posted justifies describing him as an American Comedian. Besides, hyphenating nationalities is amibiguous and should be avoided since in the US it is generally used to refer to ethnicity rather than nationality. Mezigue (talk) 23:22, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

It does not justify it at all, quite the opposite. He has been a citizen of both countries since birth, and hence was when he became notable too. Mexico is a diverse country and the term Mexican American is not reserved to a specific ethnicity. Is Lupita Nyong'o not Mexican? Is Nicolas Jaar not Chilean? Malayy (talk) 00:31, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

1) It is inappropriate in all cases to hyphenate nationalities. If both nationalities are relevant, the person should be described as an X and Y whatever, never X-Y. In this case, as clearly stated in the manual of style, Mexican is not relevant. Mezigue (talk) 13:31, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

So the issue is the hyphen because it creates ambiguity as to whether that refers to a specific ethnicity, which, as stated in the MOS, "should generally not be in the lead." I understand and can agree with that. However, you continue to assert that the Context section of MOS:BLPLEAD "clearly" supports the removal of "Mexican" despite what I have already written above that the subject was both a Mexican and American citizen "when the person became notable," per WP:Manual of Style/Biographies#Context. Malayy (talk) 16:56, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Concur with Mezigue — ethnicity is not the same as nationality. And many, many Americans have dual citizenship with another country — we still refer to them as American if they were raised here, are citizens here and became notable while living here. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:26, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

@Tenebrae: I know, ethnicity not being the same as nationality is precisely my point. I am only talking about nationality here. He is a citizen of both Mexico and the United States, and has been since birth. Not to mention he lived in Mexico from age 1 to 7, Spanish was his first language and he identifies as Mexican. Regardless, I understand what you are saying and do somewhat agree. However, where in MOS:BLPLEAD does it say that we exclude a person's other nationality based on the fact that they were not living there when they became notable? The part cited by Mezigue does not say that. Now, even though "Mexican-American" is not an ethnicity, I understand there is still ambiguity. As Mezigue pointed out, removing the hyphen and replacing with with "X and Y" is less ambiguous. Malayy (talk) 02:12, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

It's a distinction without usefulness. He was born in the US and became notable while living in and a citizen of the US. He may have lived in Mexico for a short time as child, but his culture, outlook and comedy are American. Lots and lots of people have dual citizenship, and that's nothing more than a technicality. Charlize Theron, for example, became notable while a citizen of South Africa, and though she became a U.S. citizen in 2007, we don't refer to her as a "South African-American" actress. There's a reason for that: MOS:BLPLEAD refers to "the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." The key is notability — and C.K. became notable while living, working, and having been born and raised in the U.S. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:49, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

@Tenebrae: Yes, the reason for not calling Charlize Theron a "South African-American" is because she became a US citizen; and after she became notable. That directly follows what is written in the context section of MOS:BLPLEAD. This is not comparable to C.K.'s situation. He was a citizen of both countries at the time of his birth, since he was born on U.S. soil and his father was Mexican. Also, the notability part of MOS:BLPLEAD that you cited is not relevant as it only relates to "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality" and not citizenship. I suppose the issue is the manual of style makes no distinction between what a national and a citizen is. The last sentence of WP:Manual of Style/Biographies#Context almost resolves this but only mentions "previous nationalities or the place of birth". Regardless, I completely agree excluding it from the lead given its particular irrelevance to C.K. as a notable figure. An exception should be made I guess. Malayy (talk) 00:37, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

I appreciate your calm and thoughtful comments, Malayy. I'm still a little unsure where you stand. On one hand, you agree with excluding it from the lead, but then say an exception should be made. I'm so confused!   :)   --Tenebrae (talk) 00:45, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Haha. Yeah, I meant that since the manual of style doesn't clearly resolve this unique issue we should make an exception and not include it in the lead. Thanks for the quick response! Malayy (talk) 01:06, 5 December 2017 (UTC)