Talk:List of wars involving Albania/Archive 1

Albanian-Venetian war & Ottoman wars

Shouldn't there be the Albanian-Venetian wars in 1447 be included as well?And the Ottoman-Albanian wars from 1432-1468? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.99.9.228 (talk) 14:25, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, those conflicts should be here, though I have not got around to adding those yet. Please feel free to contribute. Ujkrieger (talk) 18:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

POV

It appears that this list includes a pov collection of conflicts in which irregular Albanian groups fought against the the Ottoman authorities. I wonder why conflicts in which Albanian irregulars allied with the same authorities are completely absent here. Moreover, as part of the extreme wp:or the flags of the 1830s are completely fictiοnal, not to mention that Yanina was never captured by Albanian irregulars (in the c. 1839 uprising nothing was captured south of Berat). A good approach is to support the mentioned facts with inline references else these should be removed per policy.Alexikoua (talk) 20:11, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I see that ninja-edits continue, even the pov tag is removed without the slightest explanation here, thus this leaves me no choice to restore the latest stable version.Alexikoua (talk) 13:40, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To sum up, the most problematic issues are as follows (removal is necessary unless new references are presented):

The use of the Albanian flag in the pre-1880s battles
The supposed capture of Yanina (in fact the specific rebellion never spread south of Berat)Alexikoua (talk) 18:53, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No evidence for POV. Albanian rebel flag: http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/al_ottom.html read info on last flag. If you have any other data about the flags that specifically state that the flags were not used before 1880s, please share. Regarding Yanina, please provide a source for the rebellion that states no territory south of Berat was captured. The wikipedia article (Albanian Revolts of 1833–39) says "While the agreement was quickly violated by the Ottoman government, the rebels under Tafil Buzi rose up again, this time marching to Ioannina. There, Tafil Buzi made a proclamation for all the Albanian to take their arms against the Ottomans and this was one of the first proclamations for the liberation of Albania. Tafil Buzi asked also for the help of Mehmet Ali of Egypt. Alarmed, the Ottoman government sent many military troops against the rebels. Under those circumstances, Tafil Buzi was forced to accept the amnesty and to withdraw in his village in May 1835." If you believe this is wrong, make changes to this article first with sources and then make changes to List of wars involving Albania. I'm quite dissapointed you accuse me of POV when before I made edits to this article there were only 6 wars mentioned, and now there many times more. By your logic I shouldn't have mentioned Albanian revolts at all without mentioning other conflicts too as they are POV. Do you realise that I have followed the 'History of Albania' box on the side, subsection 'Early Modern'. The wars listed here are:

Revolts of 1833–1839 Revolt of 1843–1844 Revolt of 1845 Revolt of 1847 League of Prizren League of Peja Revolt of 1910 Revolt of 1911 Battle of Deçiq Revolt of 1912 In that order. I have recalled these wars on this article and now that I have finished, I will add other conflicts. Unless you want to add some information to this article too that would improve the quality of the article rather than complaining about POV. Ujkrieger (talk) 18:04, 6 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/al_ottom.html ISN'T AN WP:RS. About the supposed capture of Yanina in 1830s (which you pretend that the correspondent article claims that), it's up to you to find the necessary reference. Until then this will be removed. Moreover, the supposed "invasion of Northern Epirus in 1916" wasn't a war at all against the Principality of Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 18:45, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First of all there is a huge diference between the "capture of city X" from "marching against city X but without success", the latter happenned in 1830s Ioannina. Last but not least, you added another fictional capture of Ioannina in the 14th century AD. I admit this is not even close to real history. I've cn tagged these parts and you need to add the necessary references (using other wiki articles isn't an argument, wiki-articles should point directly to inline references).Alexikoua (talk) 20:45, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be so foolish. I will add references to all of these. Don't let your prejudices and stubbornness cloud reality. All of the information on this has been taken from other Wiki articles. Contrary to your false belief, I have not made these up. In terms of Yanina, the fact that Albanians marched against Yanina means that they went way further than Berat, which means your previous statements, and i quote: "in the c. 1839 uprising nothing was captured south of Berat" and "Regarding Yanina, please provide a source for the rebellion that states no territory south of Berat was captured." are both lies. The reason I wrote captured Yanina was because the Wiki article did not state that the rebels were defeated. In fact, it says that the rebels gave a speech in Yanina calling for Albanians to rise up, which strongly suggests the Albanians DID take the city. Provide a source which says that the Albanians didn't take Yanina and then I will not edit this specific conflict any further. Ujkrieger (talk) 22:52, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(Ignore trolling). Unless a decent citation is provided the fictional facts will be soon removed. You also need to follow wp:RS. In general using unsourced wik-articles is too weak for an argument. As I've told, if you dream of fictional Albanian conquests that's not the precise place to claim it. Thus, it's up to you to prove it.Alexikoua (talk) 22:55, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This reference doesn;t claim anything close to the fact described in the article [[1]]. In general Ioannina was never under the control of Zenebishi (the reference given in fact contradicts the article), so I'll proceed to the necessary removals.Alexikoua (talk) 23:05, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is very simple issue. The topic of this article are not Albanians, but state Albania which was established at the beginning of the 20th century. Similar like Italy and Germany which were established in 19th century. "Albania" in the Middle Ages was a geographic concept (region) which should not be associated with modern political entity or its particular culture.(Schmitt, Oliver Jens (2001), Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479), München: R. Oldenbourg Verlag GmbH München, p. 47, ISBN 3-486-56569--9, Eine eigenständige albanische Kultur gab es nicht. Es empfiehlt sich deshalb, Anstelle von Albanien den Terminus "albanischer Raum" einzuführen, der keine Assoziationen mit einem politischen Gebilde oder einer besonderen Kultur aufkommen lässt, sondern darauf hinweist, das "Albanien" im Mittelalter ein geographicer Begriff ist. {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |lastauthoramp=, |month=, |chapterurl=, |laydate=, |laysummary=, |doi-inactive-date=, and |separator= (help)) That was exactly what stable version of this article said (permanent link) before Ujkrieger performed massive changes. Taking in consideration that this massive changes failed to gain consensus, the stable version should be restored and major changes should be first discussed as per WP:CAUTIOUS wikipedia policy.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:32, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Then Antidiskriminator,how come in the "List of wars involving Serbia" or "List of wars involving Greece" conflicts which date back before their declaration of independence are also included but here not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nixious6 (talk • contribs) 19:15, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As stated by Nixious, the pages for wars involving Serbia and Greece date back before modern founding, even to ANCIENT times for the Greece page. So it seems silly to remove so much information from this page base on an inconsistent claim. You should look to improve the article, rather than delete 90% of it. The 'stable' version barely had anything on the page as nobody had bothered to add anything. Now that I have expanded the article you are complaining. It seems as if you are trying to limit the quality of this article. Ujkrieger (talk) 20:47, 20 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

List of wars involving Serbia has been split.--Zoupan 05:45, 21 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Severe pov issues (apart from the pre-Independence period battles which is another big topic), can be summarize as follows:

There is an obsession to add fictional Albanian victories and non-historical captures, for example the supposed capture of Ioannina by Zenebishi.
"All" pre-1870 flags (with a couple of exceptions: Ottoman, Venetian, Skandeberg flag) should be removed as a clear product of wp:or.Alexikoua (talk) 11:11, 21 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No fictional events. All are sourced or based on other Wiki articles. This is a list article, and so is based on information from other wiki articles. If you wish to remove flags, remove them first from the Commons and then they will be removed from the article (if you have sufficient evidence that they are unreliable). Ujkrieger (talk) 12:20, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Most severe wp:or is somewhat fixed right now. This was also a good opportunity to fix the correspondent articles. About the flags, I'll proceed to the removal from en:wiki. They can stay in commons as a product of artistic wp:or but off course its creator never claimed that they were used as flags of states.Alexikoua (talk) 13:50, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I can only asume that the so-called Arta flag was restored as a product of childish editting in this article.Alexikoua (talk) 20:23, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ujkrieger, I kindly invite you (again) to explain what makes these images historical or to be more precise what makes "Heraldike Skipatare" forum wp:rs.Alexikoua (talk) 09:48, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

25px flags

I think the page would look nicer with 25px flags. --FPSTurkey (talk) 11:41, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Separating medieval and modern battles

Should the battles of medieval Albanian principalities and the modern Albanian state be separated?--Zoupan 22:05, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It would be more convenient to keep them on one page. That is what has been done for other states:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Greece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Ukraine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_France

Anyway I added different time sections to avoid confusion (pre-Ottoman, Ottoman, WW1, Interwar, Modern etc.).
I would think that the article for List of wars involving Serbia would look better if medieval and modern history were merged. I added a link to medieval conflict in the intro.Ujkrieger (talk) 11:34, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Karpenisi: Unexplained reverts and aggresive edit summaries

A decent explanation is needed why the editor uses aggresive language [[2]] and insists on labelling everything that contains the word Greek as pov [[3]]. The discrepancy is still evident in the attempt to remove the Greek revolutionary flag from the army that fought under a Major general of the Greek Army (M. Botsaris) and commanding general of the Greek army of western Greece, with a flag that was used prior to the outbreak of the Greek revolution (pre-1821).

Alexikoua (talk) 19:16, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[4], quote: "English: The flag of Botsaris during the Greek War of Independence.

Ελληνικά: Σημαία του Μάρκου Μπότσαρη κατά την Ελληνική Επανάσταση.". Even the Greek who uploaded the flag says that Botsaris used this flag during the Greek War of Independence, and hence during the battle of Karpenisi. Ujkrieger (talk) 18:55, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Have you ever thought that this is not cited? Let me help you that this isn't. Even if an editor is "a Greek" as you claim, everything needs to follow wp:verify.Alexikoua (talk) 16:43, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

All should take a breather. Ujkrieger, please go by peer reviewed sources. It would save a lot of bother on your part.Resnjari (talk) 17:17, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The specific flag is cited in Markos Botsaris with full caption Flag raised by Markos Botsaris, in Souli, October 1820... (I've just fixed the url, thus it's working again). After the outbreak of the War of Greek liberation Botsaris used the flag with the cross (same inline). I guess you are aware of this caption since you "edit" this article. Thus I'm going to replace it with the correct flag. @Resnjari: I can only assume that the breath advice does not concern me. I'm open to friendly advices in general though.Alexikoua (talk) 20:37, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, a pause is good. Allows for reflection. Balkan topics have their own momentum... sadly at times. Like i said, Ujkrieger ought to focus on wp:relaible and wp:secondary sources before getting into muddles like this. Best.Resnjari (talk) 20:49, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Alexikou seems to be objecting to the flag. Lets take this one step at a time. Alixkou removed around ten sources and sourced information mostly not related to the flag because he objects to the flag. How is this justifiable? Most of the edits I made were not related to the flag. I am reverting your edits and removing the flag until further consensus on the flag can be reached, I provided many sources to back up the fact the the people fighting were Albanian Souliots and that shouldn't be removed without proper justification.Ujkrieger (talk) 18:09, 7 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake, he has not removed most of the sources, just simply chosen to ignore their content.Ujkrieger (talk) 18:10, 7 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have provided a clear reference which proves when this flag was used. None is here interested in your personal points. Moreover, what's important here is that the inlines you provide do not support your pov in fact they are against it.Alexikoua (talk) 20:12, 7 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Iraq war involvement ?

I have not looked into it properly at this point in time, but nonetheless i have to bring it up as its been on my mind for a while. Was Albania part of the coalition that invaded Iraq in 2003. Did it send some troops, or even, was it part of the post invasion era occupation force and sent some troops to assist the USA ? If so should we create and add a section ? Clarification by editors would be most welcome on the matter. Best.Resnjari (talk) 20:53, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Removals of insurgencies in Macedonia and Kosovo.

Someone removed the insurgency in Macedonia and insurgency in Kosovo. This page is a list of wars that Albanian states and Albanian forces have been involved in. NLA and KLA were Albanian forces that have been involved in these insurgencies. So they should be added in this list as well. With the same logic, we should remove Kosovo war because in fact KLA was the main force that fought the Yugoslav forces and Albania only supported them. I will add back these insurgencies. Have a nice day. Dardanus 75 (talk) 11:45, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Illiryan wars

I wish that the Wars were the Illiryans participated would be Shown to. 2A02:908:D10:A9C0:B846:8E09:6624:CF0A (talk) 13:42, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not relevant to this article.Alexikoua (talk) 22:04, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You need to explain why this information is connected to Albania/Albanians.Alexikoua (talk) 03:40, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rare situation - I'll agree with Alexikoua. As long as we don't know exactly who the Proto-Albanians where, we shouldn't just pick something we want. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:07, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OR

I would like to kindly remind kaiseredit that this site is a summary of conflicts lead by Albanian troops, forces, state etc. not Bulgaria in addition of usual WP:OR inserted informations with quite a number of weasel words. You should use a talk page first with reliable source presentation which means that WP: Onus is also applied here. Thank you. Theonewithreason (talk) 19:11, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

POV item

User:Nysreti1 keeps reinstating a POV item that has been extensively discussed in the past; for example, in this AfD from some months ago. On top of that, they linked it to an unrelated page which they view as a reference (showing ignorance of WP:CIRCULAR), and doesn't say anything about such a war; instead, it only mentions a single aviation incident with a pipe link to Operation Pyrsos, which was a battle that marked the end of the Greek Civil War (already included as an item in this stand-alone list). Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:52, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

some conflicts removed

why were some conflicts removed: like the Albania yugoslavia border war of 1998, or the wars in kosovo, presevo, macedoonia. even the iraq war. albania participated in all these battles. and why is illyrian wars not included? 82.3.27.121 (talk) 16:16, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

some wars missing

I believe that the North Epirus war 1914, Civil war 1997, Revolts 1833-43 should all be added, since, they are wars, and they involve albania 82.3.27.121 (talk) 18:49, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

there were also a bunch of battles lost like lume,rec,permet, also vlora soviet naval base, iraq wars, kosovo war, greek border war, vietnam war. 82.3.27.121 (talk) 19:25, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Any additions need to have verifiable reliable sources showing the entries meet the WP:LISTCRITERIA and supporting the entry content such as the result. // Timothy :: talk 21:13, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]