Talk:List of titles and honours of William, Prince of Wales

Earl of Chester citation needed

@Keivan.f, Nford24, and The Sri Lanka: have all removed the citation needed tag without providing said citation nor even giving explanation. I can't restore it again without violating WP:3RR. That issue is currently being discussed at Talk:William,_Prince_of_Wales#Earl_of_Chester. All other subsidiary titles were mentioned in the king's speech - either explicitly or implicitly (ie The Scotish Titles) except for Earl of Chester. We do not yet know if that was an oversight or if the title has now been separated from that of Prince of Wales. Until we have a source to know which case it is, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Gecko G (talk) 21:34, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Gecko G My assumption was that it is always granted together with the Prince of Wales title. While Charles has stated that the Prince of Wales title and all his Scottish titles were passed down to William, he did not explicitly mention Earl of Chester. I was wondering if any of the titles have been gazetted. That could put an end to the speculation. I also restored the cn tag for now with a hidden note that would redirect users to the talk page for William's article. Keivan.f^Talk 22:17, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Thus far, none of William's title changes have been gazetted, nor has any other RS been found specifically addressing Earl of Chester (and unlike most of the subsidiary titles it is not automatic but must be recreated like 'Prince of Wales' is). Back when Charles was created such his letters patent did specifically mention both. Right now, we don't know if it was just an omission oversight in the speech or if the tradition of awarding them together has been dropped. There's no law saying they must be awarded together. Gecko G (talk) 00:13, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

I take it we now have it sourced, that William is the Earl of Chester. GoodDay (talk) 20:07, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

yes () Though the date is a bit confusing. Gecko G (talk) 22:50, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

References

Is he Prince of Wales only from 13 Feb 2023?

So, per the article, if he is Earl of Chester as of the date of the Letters Patent of 13 February 2023 (which seems correct) why isn't he also Prince of Wales only from that date as well given that he received that title by the same Letters Patent? DeCausa (talk) 23:53, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

As said, the dating is confusing. Other RS (firstly and most notably the king's speech) confirmed him as Prince of Wales prior to the letters patent. We can say the Prince of Wales title was gazetted at the later date, but numerous RS used it to refer to him as having such prior to it being gazetted. Meanwhile the only public RS for Earl of Chester is the letters patent. Wikipedia can only go off of public, RS. Gecko G (talk) 00:35, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

No, there's some secondary source reporting - mainly celebrity magazines which are not great from an RS point of view. People (magazine), as well as reporting on Earl of Chester, says his new titles, including Prince of Wales, "only became official" with the Letters Patent of 13 Feb. DeCausa (talk) 08:23, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Are you saying the People magazine source specifically called him Earl of Chester prior to Feb, or only Prince of Wales? If the former, that could have been quite helpful in prior discussions (though as you acknowledge, it's not the best source). If the later, then there's no need to use it when the King's speech declaring him such is a far superior source (and other RS corroborate). As discussed [extensively] elsewhere, the king's speech, and all other sources except one local non-reliable source, specifically addressed every other title except for Earl of Chester. Gecko G (talk) 00:34, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

No, the point is that People explicitly said he became Earl of Chester when the Letters Patent were issued on the 13 February. But the point I'm raising is that it also says the Prince of Wales title "only became official" with the same Letters Patent on 13 February. (Btw, the King's speech is WP:PRIMARY and if you read it doesn't actually excplicitly say when he was to become PoW). Because People isn't a great source I think this may have to be parked until better sources discuss this but I suspect there is a difference between being designated Prince of Wales and the formal creation date. DeCausa (talk) 09:58, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

I thought that was the case but wanted to make sure.

I never have understood the opposition to primary sources, but in any event there's plenty of RS from September, so it's not an issue.

Normally titles are gazetted closer to when they are announced, and the distinction between creation and de-facto "registration" is mostly arcane academic trivia, but the combination of the time gap and the announcement of one but not both titles, when both got gazetted together, is the only thing that makes this case noteworthy. He, and multiple sources, started using the Prince of Wales title in September. I'm unsure if it should continue to be listed as it is (which IIRC I added) or if the differing dates should be relegated to something like a footnote or endnote. Gecko G (talk) 22:52, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Just to be clear "gazetting" is not in any case the definitive point. That's mere publication. The key point is the date of the Letters Patent. And just to repeat WP:CONTEXTMATTERS: a newspaper, even a paper of record, is not necessarily RS for this. Ultimately it's a point of law, and a very esoteric one at that which is not always the forte of the media. We'll see if the issue surfaces in specialist RS in due course...I don't think there is anything to add to the article until it does. DeCausa (talk) 22:59, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

AFAIK, he & his wife have been called Prince & Princess of Wales since September 9, 2022. Also their bio pages & their children's bio pages were likewise changed on September 9, 2022. Anyways, I'll go along with whatever date is chosen - September 9, 2022 or February 13, 2023. GoodDay (talk) 20:36, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Obviously "RS" have been referring to him as Prince of Wales since September. But there's two questions (1) is there a point to be made in the article about the difference being commonly "called" Prince of Wales and date of the actual creation of his title? I acknowledge that People magazine is not a great source for that point but they do suggest a difference. (2) Per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, are the otherwise reliable mainstream news media WP:RS for the esoteric medieval legalities of Letters Patent. Maybe they are (plus www.royal.uk). Maybe they aren't. DeCausa (talk) 21:00, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

RAF Promotion

There was some going back and forth a few days ago regarding the PoW's rank with in the UK Armed Forces. What counts as confirmation of the promotion without 'official sources?' Images from the investiture ceremonies at Windsor Castle on 4 Oct 23 show him wearing the wing commander sleeve insignia on his No. 1 service dress uniform. I realize promotions in the RA and RN can only be inferred from this and not confirmed since the pattern of his promotions in the past is that all three take effect on the same date. See Images here: https://www.tumblr.com/charlotte-of-wales/730248548816470016/footballer-leah-williamson-is-made-an-officer-of?source=share 2601:3C3:8300:9FC0:15C0:77CF:AFD2:D520 (talk) 19:32, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

The image does appear to have him wearing a rank 'one higher', then he did at his grandmother's state funeral. GoodDay (talk) 19:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Isn't that WP:SYNTH? DeCausa (talk) 20:09, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Possible, as I haven't seen any sources of a promotion, in any of the British (Air Force, Army or Navy) armed forces. GoodDay (talk) 20:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

He was promoted in August 2023, to Commander (Navy), Lieutenant Colonel (Army) & Wing Commander (Air Force). GoodDay (talk) 18:26, 25 November 2023 (UTC)