Talk:List of superlative trees

Largest tree?

Does the Giant Sequoia really hold the title for largest tree according to volume? Wouldn't that belong to one of the giant Indian banyans (which I believe to be some hundreds of feet wide)?

Just wanted to clarify, thanks.Lonious (talk) 10:29, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Yellow Meranti record

Greetings,

While I would "love" for the recently-discovered, record-breaking yellow meranti to be 100.8 meters tall, this scientific journal article notes that the Menara tree is growing on a slope and 100.8 meters seems to be measured from the lowest point of the base to the top, with 96.8 meters being the high side. Averaging these would produce an average height of 98.8 meters.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/ffgc.2019.00032/full

Anyone else have an opinion on this? Also, I suggest that we could create an article for this individual tree. Thoughts?Ryoung122 19:39, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. 100.8m is not even to the lowest part of the bole but to the lowest part of the BUTTRESS. They report height to the lowest part of bole 98.90 m, to the highest base point of bole 96.26 m. So the correct height is 97.58 m as I have written in Shorea faguetiana. Krasanen (talk) 07:30, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Split proposed

Fgnievinski proposed splitting out the Tallest trees section into its own article. What's the rationale? — hike395 (talk) 18:47, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

• It's important enough. fgnievinski (talk) 22:34, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Support: taking a look at WP:Splitting, this can't be a size split (since there is only 7KB of prose in the article, and is a list article also). The page covers more than one topic: tallest, oldest, etc. trees. If you'd like to split out List of tallest trees, we should show notability according to the general notability guideline. Now, tallest tree lists are a well-known concept (as you say). For example, the American Forests NGO has a "register of champion trees" [1]. There are a number of websites that maintain "tallest tree by species" lists: [2], [3], [4]. So, it's probably fine to split.

I would suggest that we follow WP:SUMMARYSTYLE and keep a short list here, with a longer or more detailed list at List of tallest trees. This would be analogous to List of oldest trees. — hike395 (talk) 11:44, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support

I think it would be a good idea to have this as the "home-base" article and then split out more-detailed articles. There are several issues that could be better-covered in a split-out article: A. Tallest individual trees vs Tallest tree species. Right now, this article only includes the "one" tallest tree for each species. I think a lot of readers want to know what the second-tallest redwood is. B. Officialness/correctness of height measurements: we have seen that there is a varying degree of information when it comes to tree height measurement (and also tree size measurement). The nuances of each topic could be better-covered with a separate article that could, for example, include information such as "date of last measure". C. Living vs Historical: Just because a tree dies (for example, El Grande, former largest eucalyptus tree) doesn't mean that the measurements no longer exist. Separate articles should be able to include seperate lists for "all-time" vs "living". Even among the living, heights may increase or decrease or time...the top of the tree may break off or it may be growing higher. Again, more details that are a bit much for a super-article but for an article split, more material can be included. D. Tall-tree ecology: there is a move away from seeing the heights of trees as isolated and, instead, as a measure of forest health. This could be covered better with additional articles.Ryoung122 03:45, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

 Done --- I kept the top 10 of the list here, sending the rest of the list out to the new article. We need to resolve the self-contradiction, however. — hike395 (talk) 12:34, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Southern Blue Gum now up to 92 meters (302 feet)

Greetings,

The world's tallest blue gum has been climbed and re-measured, now 92 meteres high (302 feet):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=177&v=hvXjyWJVh1E&feature=emb_title&fbclid=IwAR3Lhqr-D_PHsbPMQCMGucPPCrXIgGkdl7us409aOz1oLsGdCMIjr8dLQNE

This is the same tree already listed. However, it is 7 years later, and now taller.Ryoung122 06:55, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Proposed change in inclusion criteria: "reliably measured" instead of "living"

Big trees are old trees; old trees die (sorry to say). If we keep using "living" as an essential criterion for inclusion in these lists, it will be harder to keep the lists up to date. Also, the death of a large tree isn't always covered by news, or documented by science, with the same consistency as the discovery of a large tree is. We really don't know if all of these trees are still alive. So, what if we use reliable measurement as the criterion for inclusion instead, regardless of the tree's current existential status? That would still exclude sensational and poorly sourced claims of exceptional height/girth/volume/whatever, and keep the list useful and informative while reducing the maintenance burden. Thoughts? J-Mo 22:51, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Sadly, tree death often changes the volume of the tree (e.g., The Senator, Washington tree, Sunland Baobab). The reliable measurement may simply be incorrect either due to the death of the tree, or shortly after. — hike395 (talk) 04:28, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

@Hike395: true, but I'm mostly talking about retaining trees on the list after they die if they were the largest reliably-measured specimens when they were living, and if no currently-living specimen exceeds their greatest attained dimensions. For example, the Quinault Lake Cedar is still on the "Stoutest" list even though it died in 2016 (and fortunately in this case there is good documentation of its death). I don't think there are any living redcedars that are as "stout" as this one was, so it makes sense in my view to keep it on the list—and to apply this same standard to other trees that are currently on the list, when they die. Cheers, J-Mo 22:11, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

@Jtmorgan: I see your point. Would we keep the "peak" measurement while the tree was still alive? Or the last measurement? E.g., should we list the Washington tree as second-largest before it fell over? I worry that readers might be misled by out-of-date peak measurements. OTOH, List of oldest trees makes it clear that many of the trees listed are dead (and are not getting any older). Maybe this is more of a problem for "largest", because trees can shrink before they die. — hike395 (talk) 01:32, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

@Hike395: I think focusing on the peak measurement makes most sense. If a big tree loses its top or something, and there's a good source for that (with or without a new measurement), we can note that. But as I see it the purpose of the article is to document the greatest reliably-measured dimensions ever attained for a species, so making the peak measurement the canonical one makes sense to me. And, as I noted before, it would reduce the maintenance burden on us, since we would only ever need to update the list if a new tree is discovered which exceeds the "peak" measurement of the current champion. J-Mo 18:01, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Overstated measurements, exception.
Although currently, the tallest trees are well measured, and thus reliable in measurement, it should be stated, that despite older estimates on tree sizes, these may yet be true, even taking not so reliable measurements into account, and that some of those trees may have been logged since then. Specially during the US' early expansion phase, when wood was in such high demand, some trees may have existed which we're both higher and older, by far. The only limitation to a tree's height is it's ability to grow further, and that can only be established upon it's natural death's ending, if and when such an ending is true natural, excluding external damages. It could be that especially redwoods, can become much taller.

Overstated/variation in measurements, girth, exception.
Since a tree is one big osmosis factory, the girth can also vary because of the availability of water, since measuring after rainfall, will greatly increase the osmosis, and thus vary the girth. The osmotic pressure to reach 100 meters up would have to be near 10 bars at ground level, for water to reach that high. I'm not saying that this can vary up to the amount that these measurement are 'off' but to a certain degree it would always be, at any given time, because of this. A tree with a trunk of 14 meters, side to side, would definitely show signs of increased girth after rainfall.

Dead trees

Why are they still on these lists??? 184.147.89.192 (talk) 16:21, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

One example: the information is useful for gauging what a particular species is capable of. Facial (talk) 20:55, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion of T. mucronatum in list of largest trees

Several websites estimate the Arbol del Tule, including the concrete plaque in front of the tree itself, as containing 700-800 cubic meters (24000 - 28000 cubic feet) of volume, presumably a bole calculation. This would give it a third rank amongst the list of largest trees by volume. If there are no objections, I will proceed to add this entry. Facial (talk) 20:53, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion of biblical references

It’s unclear why references to biblical figures are used when discussing the suspected age of Olive trees in the Oldest Tree section 90.247.193.239 (talk) 17:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Original research issue

In June 2024 @Hike395 placed an wp:original research template on the section List of superlative trees#Largest leaves (by type). I agree with their opinion that this is a case of WP:SYNTH. There are no sources to support claims in the type column such as "Largest overall leaf", "Largest bipinnate leaf", or "Largest costapalmate leaf". There has been no improvement in the last three months. I think it may be time to remove the section with the possibility of it being restored, when/if sources are located to support the statements that these are the largest tree leaves. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 00:48, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Delete section --- I agree with MtBotany: three months should be enough time to fix. — hike395 (talk) 15:18, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I have now added the Template:Original research section to the Trees bearing the largest flowers section as it has the same problems as with the now removed Largest leaves section. I have started checking the sources and so far I have found some errors that I have corrected, but the statements that the listed flowers are the largest tree flowers is WP:SYNTH. None of the books or articles so far checked have any statement about the trees having the "largest flowers" in any phrasing. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 00:00, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Add "Trnji" (Platanus orientalis) to the table of the stoutest trees

I missing tree from the list of the stoutest trees: Tnjri aka Sose's tree

The Wondermondo writes, referencing another source: "The circumference of the tree is very large – 27 m. It is not known to Wondermondo whether this is measured at the base of Tnjri or at the classic 1.3 m height. One source (In Russian: Anokhin G.I., 1999., Three fates) states that circumference at the base is 31.5 m, thus it is possible that 27 m are measured at the breast height." Also, the plaque from at least 2009, but likely (judging by the typeface of the letter) from the USSR era / before 1990, states that same 27m of trunk perimeter.

27m roughly results in 8.59m of trunk diameter, and as this tree has a single, though hollow trunk at 1.3m level. => Imo, it should be added to the table or at mentioned (as there is hollow baobab and hollow sequoia already in the list). Gregory108 (talk) 15:22, 22 September 2024 (UTC)