Talk:List of substances used in rituals/Archive 1

Archive 1

What should be included?

Shouldn't MDMA/ecstasy be included here? Andre (talk) 01:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion;

Entheogens are the 'teacher plants', MDMA (extasy) isn't an entheogen and should not be listed in this list.

I disagree that MDMA isn't a "Teaching" substance, and it's been used by modern-day medicine-men/shamans in theraputic settings, as well as at modern tribal gatherings such as raves. Shamanchill (talk) 02:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Cannabis (THC) should be included, it has been used in relegious rituals for centuries allready for the reason that it is one of the 'teacher plants' and the most wide spread used entheogen on this planet. Frankly I do not understand why it is not included there. (I would do it myself but don't know how to edit the article without messing the structure up, I don't even try.

Ferre 16:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Weed, Pot, Smoke, Hash ect Should be included.--Liamjosephhalligan 22:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree THC merits inclusion. Andre (talk) 01:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Other substances to look into:

nutmeg, belladonna, brugmansia (and possibly other nightshades), ayahuasca, mandrake (mentioned in Genesis 30:14), henbane, morning glory, opium, acacia, kratom, etc... . If you get right down to it, even alcohol belongs on this list. I will try to compile a better proposal list from Rudgley's Encyclopedia, but also think that a column giving the regional and cultural contexts of each be created, and a differentiation could thus be made between those used in more traditional shamanistic rites versus modern equivalents. There are numerous Polynesian, South/Central American, African entheogens not yet included here, as well. Neolithic bowls depicting datura casings have been found, as have cannabis seeds in pre-historic fire pits - necessary information to include in this listing, I believe. The listing in Legal Drugs should also be expanded, as it misses many of these. Herbal and Fungal Hallucinogens might be a good starting point. Lastly, the listing should probably be alphabetical. Shamanchill (talk) 02:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the effects part of the table is unnecessary, as are the images. The current page puts emphasis on the chemicals, rather than the source of the chemical, which is what is used as an entheogen. Non-psychoactive "entheogens" exist (e.g. Erythroxylum coca and Papaver somniferum), however they are not characterized as entheogens. I've moved the list from Entheogen over to here, and it includes many of the items mentioned by Shamanchill. I don't think we need to include legality or description of effects, because the chemical pages explain those. The imported tables include the entheogenic organisms, the active ingredients, and the historical regions or cultures of use. --Notmyhandle (talk) 20:08, 13 February 2010 (UTC

I note opium poppy seems not to be listed
Laurel Bush (talk) 09:34, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Although Noscapine, from Papaver somniferum var. album (Opium poppy), may induce a dissociative effect, as far as I know it has not been used as an entheogen. If you can cite something, then it will probably be included. --Notmyhandle (talk) 16:33, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Cant think of another good reason for the way opiates have become prohibitted substances
Effective entheogenic drugs will be a threat to the power of any emperor ruling by 'divine right'
And opiates do seem to have an entheogenic effect on myself (although I prefer to call the effect enspirigenic)
Also, cant imagine how any 'authority' might determine that a drug is in some sense entheogenic (or enspirigenic) except by assessment, measurement, of beliefs of actually users
Is there any other way?
You ask for a citation
Therefore it would be very useful to know much more about the methodology of supposed authorities
Laurel Bush (talk) 10:17, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I speculate that entheogen was created as a way to refer to hallucinogens in a more reverent tone. The guys who created the term are/were ethnobotanists and psychonauts. As has been discussed elsewhere, the scope of entheogen has been roughly assigned, but it obviously is flawed. Regardless, we can do nothing about it except interpret the texts where entheogen was defined. --Notmyhandle (talk) 20:25, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Seems to be a somewhat fossilised subject
Laurel Bush (talk) 10:04, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Added THC/Cannabis

I've added THC/Cannabis to the list, taking elements from other articles (hopefully not doing so out of context), mainly Spiritual use of cannabis. I was a bit shocked to see that it wasn't included, and checked here to make sure there wasn't any previous decision against the matter. Since there was no arguments against it, and if anything seemed to be a loose consensus in favour of the addition, I've gone ahead and done so. - Pacula 18:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with adding it, but it does not talk about effects at all. Todayistheday (talk) 21:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Tobacco

Shouldn't tobacco be used in this? Native Americans originally used large amounts of tobacco to produce an tobacco as an entheogenic state —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.115.189 (talk) 21:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Since ingestion of nicotine causes a psychoactive effect (head rush, euphoria) and has traditionally been used in a ritualistic manner, I agree that it should be added, although with the context noted. Shamanchill (talk) 02:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I thought tobacco was mainly a stimulant/"smart drug" until I smoked a heavy dose (2 large pipes, about 5 gm) and went into a meditative state quite different from the effect of a cigarette or two. NOTE: nicotine by itself does not have the full effect, tobacco smoke also contains harmala alkaloids - see Nicotiana rustica. Common historical records indicate shamanistic use & Wikipedia Nicotine, Nicotiana rustica et al. detail the effects of large doses of nicotine & tobacco smoke. D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 04:29, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Added to main page D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 04:59, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Include the legality of each of the substances?

Seems like a good idea for curious psychonauts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snuggywuggles (talk • contribs) 01:09, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree, although as the schedule of substances banned or monitored varies by region, it would have to be region-specific, and I'm not sure how to format that. Use of the American list of scheduled substances as default might be useful, with disclaimers on those not appearing on the US listing but on others that they legality in other regions may be different.Shamanchill (talk) 02:28, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Indication of whether and how covered by UN conventions on narcotics and pshycoactives might be useful
Laurel Bush (talk) 09:29, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

The scope of this list is undefined. As a "list of entheogens," the primary focus is on why it is characterized as an entheogen. Although legality is "useful," I could argue that pharmacology is also useful, or anything for that matter. I think we should leave out unnecessary information (anything that doesn't have to do with the chemical/species being an entheogen) that resides on the individual pages. --Notmyhandle (talk) 16:33, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Structures

The 2-d structures for most of the phenethylamines are really misleading. I realize they're only meant to show the differences among the group, but the 3-d structures all have the full structure, so why not the 2-d structures? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.129.224.36 (talk) 23:09, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

LSA

Please do not add back ergine (LSA) as the active principle of Ipomoea violacea, Hawaiian baby woodrose, and Rivea corymbosa seed. The pure compound is not hallucinogenic, suggesting an as yet undiscovered hallucinogenic compound in these seeds. Сасусlе 05:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that pure LSA has really been tested enough to necessarily dismiss it as inactive. In TIHKAL, Shulgin mentions only that it was not hallucinogenic at a dose of 2 milligrams. However I read another reference once (which I shall try to locate again) that stated LSA was an active hallucinogen "50x less potent than LSD" which would give an active dose of ~12.5mg, certainly not very potent for a hallucinogenic lysergamide, but still reasonably potent if compared to other tryptamine or phenethylamine hallucinogens. If this is true then LSA could well be the active component of Hawaiian Baby Woodrose etc, as it seems somewhat unlikely to me that the active compound in these reasonably well studied plants is a different molecule that has not yet been discovered. Meodipt 09:30, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Relative potency does not reflect hallucinogenic quality. I am not aware of ANY human trial with pure ergine or isoergine that gave clear psychedelic effects. The crucial point is not to dismiss LSA as a hallucinogenic compound, it is to demonstrate its activity (see scientific method). You might be interested in reading Mixing the Kykeon (I have actually heard one of its authors stating in a recent talk that they were not able to experience psychedelic effects with ergine, isoergine, or a mixture of both). Сасусlе 20:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC) (from my talk page)

Original Wasson paper definition

The original paper by Wasson et al reads like this:

We ... propose a new term that would be appropriate for describing states of shamanic and ecstatic possession induced by the ingestion of mind-altering drugs. In Greek, the word entheos means literally 'god (theos) within' and was used to describe the condition that follows when one is inspired and possessed by the god that has entered one's body. It was applied to prophetic seizures, erotic passion and artistic creation, as well as to those religious rites in which mystical states were experienced through the ingestion of substances that were transubstantial with the deity. In combination with the Greek root gen-, which denotes the action of 'becomming', this term results in the word we are proposing: entheogen. ... In a strict sense, only those vision-producing drugs that can be shown to have figured in shamanic or religious rites would be designated 'entheogens', but in a looser sense, the term could also be applied to other drugs, both natural and artificial, that induce alterations in consciousness similar to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional entheogens"

I think that this list should take the "looser sense" of the definition to include modern spiritual aids such as chemical DMT, Ketamine, LSD and others, as "ritually ingested" by Dr. John C. Lilly, Dr. Timothy Leary, Marsha Moore, and others. This also relates to my comments on broadening the neurological definition quoted from Shulgin above. I've included this note on the root Entheogens page, and I don't think that chemical substances should be excluded, just as the coiners of this term didn't. I also recommend using "The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Substances" by Richard Rudgley to help create a more comprehensive listing. I've got a copy and will make proposals over time.Shamanchill (talk) 02:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

SUPPORT NORML —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.236.233.62 (talk) 05:17, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

DMT and MAOIs

DMT is very psychoactive by itself, combining it (or any psychoactive substance) with an MAOI is reckless. MAOIs are typically not safe drugs. Though I know there is a lot of historical precedence for this combination, something should be said about the dangers if the combination is going to be listed on the page. Not doing so is irresponsible.--Jmcclare (talk) 22:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

- perhaps it should be noted that dmt is not active ORALLY unless it is combined w/ an MAOI, but when smoked/injected etc. it's "very psychoactive by itself".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.109.111 (talk) 10:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC) 

oh no

changed 5-OH-DMT to 5-HO-DMT because... well...

doy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.109.111 (talk) 10:18, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Harmala alkaloids

the harmala alkaloids should be included in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.22.166.163 (talk) 21:02, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

No because not all those plants are used tradtionally as entheogens! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Farfromhere001 (talk • contribs) 16:29, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes - the harmala alkaloids act as entheogens or especially entheogen adjuncts regardless of the plant in which they occur. Perhaps with a list of common plants in which they found - notably (surprisingly!) tobacco. D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 04:34, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

add these plants

This file is intended to list all the effective psychoactive plants which are also known to be relatively safe. All the botanicals listed are either overtly psychoactive or have historical significance, or both. I’ve attempted to pinpoint the main species in order to keep it simple, but there may be related species in any given genera which have similar effects.

Entheogens (Botanicals which produce entheogenic or psychedelic effects)-

• Amanita muscaria {var. muscaria} ~ “Fly Agaric”
• Anadenanthera colubrine {var. cebil} & Anadenanthera peregrina {var. peregrina} ~ "Cebil" & "Yopo"
• Argyreia nervosa {var. nervosa} ~ "Hawaiian Baby Woodrose”
• Banisteriopsis caapi ~ “Ayahuasca”
• Diplopterys cabrerana ~ "Chaliponga" or "Oco-Yagè"
• Heimia salicifolia ~ "Sinicuichi" or "Sun Opener"
• Ipomoea tricolor & Ipomoea violacea ~ “Morning Glory”
• Lophophora williamsii ~ “Peyote”<
• Mimosa tenuiflora (syn. hostilis) ~ "Jurema"
• Psilocybe species & Panaeolus species ~ “'Shrooms” <
• Psychotria viridis ~ “Chacruna”
• Salvia divinorum ~ “Diviner’s Sage“, "Ska Pastora" or "Yerba de la Pastora"<
• Tabernanthe iboga ~ “Iboga” <
• Trichocereus (syn. Echinopsis) pachanoi & Trichocereus peruvianus ~ “San Pedro” & “Peruvian Torch”
• Turbina (syn. Rivea) corymbosa ~ “Ololiuqui”
• Virola calophylla & Virola theiodora ~ "Epena"

Psychoactives (Botanicals which produce intoxication, inebriation, stimulation or other mind altering effects)-

• Acorus calamus ~ "Sweet Flag"
• Areca catechu ~ "Betel Nut"
• Argemone mexicana ~ "Prickly Poppy" or “Chicalote”
• Artemisia absinthium & Artemisia vulgaris ~ "Wormwood" & “Mugwort”
• Calea zacatechichi ~ “Thlepelakano” or "Bitter Grass"
• Camellia sinensis ~ “Tea”
• Canavalia maritima ~ "Baybean"
• Cannabis sativa ~ “Marijuana” or “Ganja”<
• Catha edulis ~ "Khat"<
• Coffea arabica ~ "Coffee"
• Cola acuminata & Cola nitida ~ "Cola Nut"
• Corydalis yanhusuo ~ "Yan-Hu-Suo" or "Fumewort"
• Cypripedium species??? ~ "Lady's Slipper Orchid"
• Duboisia hopwoodii ~ "Pituri"
• Ephedra sinica ~ "Ma Huang” or “Joint-Fir/Pine”
• Erythrina mulungu ~ "Mulungu"
• Erythroxylum coca {var. coca; var. ipadu} & Erythroxylum novagranatense {var. novogranatense; var. truxilloensis} ~ "Coca”<
• Ilex guayusa, Ilex paraguariensis & Ilex vomitoria ~ “Guayusa”, "Yerba Mate" & “Yaupon”
• Kaempferia galanga ~ “Galanga”
• Lactuca virosa ~ "Opium Lettuce" or "Bitter/Wild Lettuce”
• Lagochilus inebrians ~ "Inebriating Mint"
• Leonotis leonurus ~ "Wild Dagga" or “Klip Dagga”
• Leonurus cardiaca & Leonurus sibiricus ~ "Motherwort" & "Honeyweed"
• Lobelia inflata ~ "Indian Tobacco"
• Mitragyna speciosa ~ "Kratom"
• Monotropa uniflora ~ "Indian Pipe" or "Ghost Pipe"
• Myristica fragrans ~ "Nutmeg"
• Nelumbo nucifera ~ “Indian Sacred Lotus” or “Oriental Lotus”
• Nicotiana tabacum ~ "Tobacco"
• Nymphaea caerulea ~ "Egyptian Blue Lily"
• Papaver somniferum ~ "Opium Poppy"<
• Passiflora incarnata ~ "Passionflower"
• Paullinia cupana {var. sorbilis} ~ "Guaraná"
• Pausinystalia (syn. Corynanthe) yohimbe ~ "Yohimbe"
• Pedicularis species ~ "Lousewort"
• Peganum harmala ~ "Harmal" or "Syrian Rue"
• Piper methysticum {var. methysticum} ~ "Kava-Kava"
• Sceletium tortuosum ~ "Kanna"
• Scutellaria species ~ "Skullcap" or "Scullcap"
• Sida acuta & Sida rhombifolia ~ "Wireweed"
• Silene capensis (syn. undulata) ~ "Ubulawu" or “???”
• Tagetes lucida ~ "Mexican Tarragon"
• Theobroma cacao ~ "Cacao" or “Chocolate”
• Valeriana officinalis ~ "Valerian Root"
• Verbena officinalis ~ "Vervain"
• Withania somnifera ~ "Ashwagandha"
• Zornia latifolia ~ "Maconha Brava"

Medicinals and Other Ethnobotanicals (Botanicals which do not have inebriating/intoxicating effects, but have other intriguing uses. This may include medicinals, some mild psychoactives or other interesting and/or useful botanicals)

• Achillea millefolium ~ "Yarrow"
• Acmella (syn. Spilanthes) oleracea ~ "Toothache Plant" or “Paracress”
• Actaea (syn. Cimicifuga) racemosa ~ "Black Cohosh"
• Albizia julibrissin ~ "Happiness Tree" or "Silk Tree"
• Aloe vera ~ “Aloe”
• Althaea officinalis ~ "Marshmallow"
• Angelica archangelica ~ "Angelica"
• Arctostaphylos uva-ursi ~ "Bearberry" or “Kinnikinnick”

anecdotal experience - uva-ursi produces a stimulating intoxication possibly due to MAOI content D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 04:39, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

• Aspalathus linearis ~ "Rooibos"
• Azadirachta indica ~ "Neem"
• Borage species ~ "Starflower"
• Capsicum species ~ "Chilli Peppers"
• Cyclopia species ~ "Honeybush"
• Eleutherococcus senticosus ~ "Eleuthero Root"
• Eriodictyon californicum ~ "Yerba Santa"
• Eschscholzia californica ~ “California Poppy”
• Foeniculum vulgare ~ "Fennel"
• Ganoderma lucidum ~ "Reishi Mushroom"
• Gaultheria procumbens ~ "Wintergreen"
• Gingko biloba ~ "Gingko"
• Glaucium flavum ~ "Yellow Horned Poppy"
• Glycyrrhiza glabra ~ "Liquorice"
• Heliopsis longipes ~ "Gold Root"
• Humulus lupulus & Humulus japonicus ~ "Common Hop" & “Japanese Hop”
• Hypericum perforatum ~ “St. John’s Wort”
• Hyssopus officinalis ~ "Hyssop"
• Justicia pectoralis {var. stenophylla} ~ “Mashi-Hiri”
• Lepidium meyenii ~ "Maca"
• Ligusticum porteri ~ "Osha"
• Magnolia officinalis ~ "Houpu Magnolia"
• Manilkara chicle ~ “Chicle” or “Tziktli"
• Marrubium vulgare ~ "Horehound"
• Melissa officinalis ~ "Lemon Balm"
• Mentha species ~ "Mint"
• Nepeta cataria ~ "Catnip"
• Nigella sativa ~ "Black-Seed"
• Panax ginseng ~ "Ginseng"
• Polygala sibirica & Polygala tenuifolia ~ “Milkwort”, “Taoist Snakeroot” or "Yuan Zhi"
• Polygonum multiform ~ “Fo-Ti”
• Rauwolfia serpentina ~ "Snake-Root"
• Rhodiola rosea ~ "Rose-Root"
• Salix alba ~ "White Willow"
• Salvia miltiorrhiza and other Salvia species ~ "Dan Shen" & "Sage"
• Sassafras albidum ~ "Sassafras"
• Silybum marianum ~ "Milk Thistle"
• Synsepalum dulcificum ~ "Miracle Fruit"
• Turnera diffusa ~ "Damiana"
• Uncaria tomentosa ~ "Uña de Gato" or "Cat's Claw"
• Verbascum species ~ "Mullein"
• Ziziphus zizyphus ~ "Jujube" or "Chinese Red Date" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.170.17.64 (talk) 21:29, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

If this is true, then link them to their wikipedia articles where the criteria to include them as entheogens exists. If there are no references in the articles, find your own references to prove it. --Notmyhandle (talk) 22:49, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal

There is a suggested merger proposal (as can be seen on the article), moving List of psychoactive plants to this article. Input any comments, suggestions, etc. ChaseAm (talk) 22:13, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Please merge entheogenic species to List of entheogenic/hallucinogenic species under a new section By chemical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.245.53.33 (talk) 05:08, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

History

This list was originally listed in the entheogen article. --Bawanio (talk) 11:39, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Should the "Non-psychedelic substances used in rituals" (hard drugs, and substances that are non-addictive and non-psychedelic) be merged to the "Entheogen" section?

• List of substances used in rituals#Entheogens lists soft drugs and the cites include the term "entheogen".
• List of substances used in rituals#Non-psychedelic substances used in rituals
  • Lists
    • Hard drugs: Alcohol (corn beer, wine), morphine (opium), nicotine (Aztec tobacco, pituri), and caffeine (tea), and kava/khat/kratom.
    • Substances used in rituals that are non-addictive, and non-psychedelic: Blue water lily, cocoa, and chilli.
  • The cites don't include the term "entheogen", but it really doesn't matter because the current revision of Entheogen reads: "An entheogen is a psychoactive substance that induces alterations in perception, mood, consciousness, cognition, or behavior [1] for the purposes of engendering spiritual development in sacred contexts.[2] The religious, shamanic, or spiritual significance of entheogens is well established in anthropological and modern contexts; entheogens have traditionally been used to supplement many diverse practices geared towards achieving transcendence, including divination, meditation, yoga, sensory deprivation, asceticism, prayer, trance, rituals, chanting, hymns like peyote songs, drumming, and ecstatic dance."

Should List of substances used in rituals#Non-psychedelic substances used in rituals be merged to List of substances used in rituals#Entheogens or not? --Bawanio (talk) 06:35, 23 February 2020 (UTC)