Talk:List of oldest universities in continuous operation/Archive 7

Archive 1

←

Archive 5

Archive 6

Archive 7

Sorbonne

The wikipedia article about the University of Paris/Sorbonne indicates it was founded around 1050 and received official patents around 1200. How come it isn't in the list? 37.165.227.233 (talk) 23:29, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Read the lead paragraph. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 07:55, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Modernist POV and bias

The oldest universities in the world are in Islamic countries. The madrasa was the university of old times. No use beating around the bush. However, it appears that some editors here have a modernist and biased POV. Shame on them. Future generations will not speak well of them.

I am quoting the following notes from Seyyed Hossein Nasr for the record:

In the early Middle Ages Islamic educational institutions themselves began to have an influence, especially in the domain of higher learning, upon their Western counterparts through Spain, Sicily and France as well as Italy. In fact, the whole college system which gave rise to the modern Western universities had a close relationship to the Islamic madrasah system which survives to this day in the Islamic world. Such terms as the “chair” used in Western universities is, of course, the direct translation of the Arabic word kursi and there are many educational practices which have survived to this day in the older institutions of higher learning of medieval origin in the West such as Salamanca, Paris, Bologna, Oxford and Cambridge which bear deep resemblance to practices in the classical educational system. It is also important to remember that the Western educational institutions, especially the university, are not part and parcel of the modern world and that in their origin they, like the Church, belong to the pre-modern history of the West.

— Seyyed Hossein Nasr, A Young Muslim’s Guide to the Modern World, Chapter 12: Modern Education, p. 210

176.55.164.164 (talk) 16:39, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

This page followers academic consensus on university histories. A university is a distinct form of higher education institution that has a corporate character (universitas means corporation in Latin). That the first institutions of higher education to have a corporate character were in Europe does not appear to have been seriously disputed, but this in no way denies the earlier existence of higher education institutions such as madrasahs that did not have a corporate character, nor that these institutions may have influenced the development of universities (although the extent of this influence appears to be debated in the literature).

Following the consensus of the academic literature on a subject is not bias; it is at the heart of WP:NPOV. See the Wikipedia:Academic bias essay for a fuller explanation of this. Robminchin (talk) 02:47, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

What consensus? There are no consensus at best, and if we take only the last 20+ years into account, then the consensus starts to leans towards connecting the European medieval university with institutions of higher education in the Islamic world, India and China! Taking both earlier 20th century European scholarship (1960 to 1990) on the subject, and more recent one (2000's onward) that is various in regional origin, we can only conclude that have an open debate on university Eurocentric uniqueness vs. common aspect connecting phenomenon, but with a small thing called WP:AGEMATTERS that should be respected - meaning, we need to be more flexible, otherwise we have a list that enters realm of disputed content, which is always bad for the project.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 20:36, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Actually, the idea that there are connections between medieval European universities and institutions of higher education in the Islamic world guess back at least as far as Makdisi 1970. But that there were links between medieval madrasahs and universities doesn't make them universities, any more than the cathedral schools in Europe were universities. Simply being connected doed not make the earlier institutions universities. If there is new scholarship that says that madrasahs actually had the corporate form of universities, then this should certainly be acknowledged here with due weight, but I haven't seen any despite having looked repeatedly during earlier debates on here. If you have, then please post links. Robminchin (talk) 22:27, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Spain

The oldest university in Spain is that of Salamanca, which was founded in the 12th century or so. The date shown for the oldest university in Portugal is also wrong. This list is garbage. Banderswipe (talk) 08:51, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Salamanca is listed as the oldest university in Spain, dated from the foundation of the studium generale in 1218, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 16:14, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Why do all of the Australian states get their own list item?

In no other country do individual states/territories get their own list items. And why does the US have three, when they were all after 1500? In general I agree that this list is a bit of a mess, and the selection criteria needs to be clarified, although I know this is not something historians agree on. Gold Broth (talk) 06:20, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

The US has three because sources disagree on which of the three was the first university in the United States. That historians can't agree on the answer makes it impossible for us to give a single institution without abandoning NPOV or engaging in OR. Robminchin (talk) 14:50, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

The title of this page should not be the oldest universities but oldest christianity based universities

The title of this page is misleading.

The oldest university in the world predates the oldest university on this list by 500 years. https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20230222-nalanda-the-university-that-changed-the-world Shalandal (talk) 23:14, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

There are older institutions of higher learning, and there is a hatnote and links in the text pointing to the article on Ancient higher-learning institutions. These did not have the corporate form of universities, from which the name 'university' is derived, and so are not considered universities by academic historians, even if they are sometimes referred to as universities in popular articles. However, as this is a list of the oldest universities in continuous operation it would not include Nalanda whatever definition of a university was used. Robminchin (talk) 23:33, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

University of Leuven

hi guys, the university of Leuven was founded in 1425. It deserves a spot on the list as the oldest university from Belgium and the Netherlands. 83.128.127.39 (talk) 15:29, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

This is discussed on the page: there's not the required continuous operation. See especially Note 4. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 16:36, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Al Qarawiyyin, Al Azhar, Sankore

Why doesn't this article mention Al-Qarawiyyin (founded in the 9th century) and Al Azhar (founded in the 10th century) and Sankore University (founded in the 10th century) which are all older than any other European university? Mrjazz123 (talk) 19:22, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Because Europeans dont like it. nableezy - 19:31, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Because this is a list of oldest universities rather than a list of the oldest higher learning institutions, thus it does not include either madrasas or cathedral schools and it dates institutions from when they took on corporate forms as universities not from when the first schools were established (thus the dates for Bologna and Oxford, in particular, are substantially later than the "earliest teaching" dates given elsewhere). Robminchin (talk) 20:04, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

UNESCO and the Guinness World Records recognize al-Qarawiyyin as the oldest university in the world, (The Universities We Need

Theological Perspectives, pp 169, ed. Stephen Heap). Also, Al Azhar is older than any European university according to the Encyclopedia of Global Religion, pp. 26. These universities aren't any different to later European universities. It is unnecessary to differentiate Muslim universities with European universities and to neglect their importance. If historians and scholars recognize Al Azhar and Al Qarawiyyin as the oldest universities in the world, then they should be included in this list. Maybe it's hard for Europeans to accept the fact that Muslims were more advanced in science and technology during the Middle Ages, while the Europeans were living in the "Dark Ages" and regressed in every aspect of life for centuries. Mrjazz123 (talk) 18:09, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

The Guinness World Records category is "Oldest Higher Learning Institution". That al-Qarawiyyin is the oldest higher learning institution is not disputed. The UNESCO claim is from the entry in the Medina of Fez entry in the register of World Heritage Sites. The opening sentence of this used to read "Founded in the 9th century and home to the oldest university in the world, Fez reached its height in the 13th–14th centuries...".[1] However, it has been updated and now reads "Founded in the 9th century, Fez reached its height in the 13th–14th centuries...".[2] There is no mention of 'university' anywhere in the entry. Robminchin (talk) 21:10, 29 August 2023 (UTC)