Talk:List of oldest universities in continuous operation/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions about List of oldest universities in continuous operation. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Universidad de Valladolid

So... where is here the University of Valladolid (Spain). It is one of the oldest in the world, founded somewhen in the first half of the 13th century.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.222.232.108 (talk) 20:17, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Its on the Map at the top of the article so I'd be bold and add it. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:12, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

University of Montpellier

wasn't the university of Montpellier founded way back by a Papal bull? I've heard of 1289, but I don't know for sure... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.214.237.13 (talk) 02:50, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Latest changes

I propose putting the stuff about older centres for higher learning in their own section below the Medieval one, if the lead isn't appropriate. The madrasah's link should still stay at the top to avoid confusion, unless Madrasah's continue to get added to the list over a reasonable time period. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:00, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

The other good option is to move the whole medieval content into the lead to make up two paragraphs there and have the sentence on other Universities after that. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:23, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Rather, a top link to madrasahs would create confusion. You haven't still given one good reason why we should single out madrasas so prominently. The top link is reserved for disambiguation, but there is nothing to disambiguate between universities and Islamic mosque schools. We don't put links to mosque in church just because both share being places of worship, do we? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 21:39, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

The reason I want to single out Madrasah's is that people have kept getting confused and added Madrasah's in particular to this article. If there are other things which people have added to this article or asked about here which don't meet the criteria then by all means create a disambiguation page for this article, on which the Madrasah's link would be but one.

Nobody gets confused about the difference between mosques and churches - so that's why there are no links there, whereas people do get confused between Ironclads and Song dynasty iron ships, so that's why there is a link there. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:44, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I am completely opposed to a top link to Madrasah. That just doesn't make any sense. There is nothing to dismabiguate here, these are two very very different words and concepts, and I don't see people continuously getting confused between the two. Athenean (talk) 00:18, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I myself put the link on top of the ironclad article several years ago, because there was a faction which was as stiff-necked as you about some Far Eastern ships allegedly anticipating the ironclads. Since then, this faction has completely evaporated, but if you continue to insist on any superficial analogy between these cases, I'll be glad to remove this link so that you can see for yourself that the ironclad article will do without it just as well. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 00:54, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

@Athenean, except that lot of people get confused about it, including UNESCO and the Oxford Dictionary of Islam. To try and claim there is no confusion and that they are completely different when UNESCO, not an organisation full of knowledge-less morons have clearly got confused.

@GPM, most people drop points they've won, that's why they've "evaporated", its a good compromise to have the link at the top, why would you honestly care this much about it. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:20, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Adding a dablink to Madrasah in this article is like adding a dablink to Apple in the article on the Orange. Athenean (talk) 07:28, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Except that it isn't because no-one gets confused between Apples and Oranges. And of course both articles do have disambiguation links, the first has a disambiguation link at the top, the second is a disambiguation page entirely. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:34, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

A top link to madrasa would only create additional confusion because people would then naturally expect some kind of historical relationship between the two institutions which, however, does not exist. If you are so intent on placing links on top to signal some kind of relationship, then the first choice would be studium generale, cathedral school and monastic school all of which are institutions closely related to the university. Arguing that madrasa should be put on top instead, shows a considerable amount of WP:SYN and WP:OR.

And one more thing: Just because you are programmer who uses plenty of his work time online to edit WP instead does not give you the right to repeat your point here ad nauseam in the hope that the others finally give up (what you might style then as "consensus"). I think there is even a WP policy on this kind of repetitive behaviour, if you like I'll look it up for you. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 09:34, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Gun Powder Ma, I think your not really being reasonable here. I've compromised a lot on my position - I'd much rather include institutions based on the common mans University definition, which clearly includes the Madrasah's (some food for thought on the matter is the University of Bologna's own website only claims they are the oldest University in the western world) and I have been happy to compromise on that and you haven't given any ground at all.

I also don't think that adding a link at the top will confuse readers further, no-one thinks that Apple the fruit and Apple the computer company are related because there is a disambiguation link. As I have pointed out many times when people get confused about these other things like cathedral schools you are more than welcome to create a disambiguation page to link them.

Finally if you are unhappy that I keep arguing the point, you are more than welcome to request dispute resolution. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:10, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I take silence to mean that on this minor point I can do as I wish within the parameters I've set out above. What I plan to do is to slim down the content on the medieval University into a couple of paragraphs, move that to the lead and then follow that by a paragraph on other centres of higher learning - remember that this lead would be considered perfectly reasonable in length for a featured list, so should be fine in this case. That means the other centres statement isn't buried in the medieval section which is otherwise totally unrelated. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:25, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

As you say, if you misinterpret silence as tacit approval and you are unhappy with the current article take it to dispute solution. I have basically left your last edit intact, merely rearranged it, so it is not true that I haven't been willing to compromise. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 01:01, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

If be "intact" you mean you hid the content at the bottom of the Medieval section and removed the Madrasah's link, then sure. I accept that its a compromise, but its a pretty small one. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:02, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

University of Paris

Is there any particular reason I'm missing that the University of Paris has been removed from this list, when formerly it was second? It's absence seems notable and I cannot find any discussion of it. I hesitate to add it, as presumably such an obvious exclusion has some reason behind it. 199.89.180.254 (talk) 02:15, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

The reason seems to be that the university of Paris is strictly speaking discontinuous, since the French Revolutionaries suppressed all French universities in the 1790s and replaced them with their grand écoles and specialized academies until the end of the 19th century. You have touched here on a central issue, the problematic qualification of "continuous operation", which has not been addressed sufficiently yet, mainly because the article is constantly harrassed by anonymous and other POV editors who want to insinuate, if not establish an Islamic priority based on a superficial reading of the term "university" and no small willingness to execute a historical revisionism on the origin of the university. That's why the editors who actually develop the article haven't found time yet to address the question how useful a list can aspire to be when its definition actually excludes the most important university of the Middle Ages! Gun Powder Ma (talk) 09:19, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

These 'explanations' for Paris are factually (historically) incorrect. The French Revolution did not merely 'suppress' the universities in France, it abolished them entirely as part of the ancien regime. There were no 'ecoles' until Bonaparte founded an Academy in Paris in 1808, and even with the restoration of the monarchy there was no revival of the ancient schools either. It is a simple fact that for almost twenty years there was no university of Paris at all, that Bonaparte pointedly did not revive it, that even Napolean's foundation was finally closed in 1882, and the modern paris institution is not a continuous operation or otherwise revival of the ancient schools: Paris is simply the founding of a new institution in an old city, just as London University is modern and not a euphemistic refounding of any of the ancient schools which operated on-and-off for centuries. So the listing of Paris on this page as a continuously operating university is therefore factually incorrect. Listing it this way is as misleading to the reader as claiming that any of the purported modern re-foundings of the Knights of the Temple of Solomon, even if it were done by a Pope, would in some way be 'continuous' from the suppression by Pope Clement V.

If you don't wish to focus on Madrasah's then the best route to that is to be prepared to compromise a little on the matter. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:23, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

How coincidental? I was just thinking the same thing on perusing this article...where is Paris? As one of the most influential and largest medieval universities in Europe, it seems laughable that it's not even mentioned in passing. It is on a technicality that it is not classed as the second oldest (so what that it was suppressed as an institution of the Ancien Régime before being reestablished?) It just seems rather pathetic and especially as its omission makes the article's intent somewhat dubious and agenda driven. Having an exact criteria sic List of oldest universities in continuous operation, makes it all the more limited in scope. In that respect an article becomes a piece of WP:OR. Who decides what is frivolous or not? For example:

List of universities with the tallest buildings
List of universities that first admitted women
List of universities that make the most money

This article's examination, however well meaning, is based on such a limited criteria it renders it conclusions meaningless because there are always going to be exceptions, hence the glaringly obvious reluctance to include Paris. An article about the foundation of the world's oldest universities would be much more broader and far reaching.109.155.75.190 (talk) 16:13, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I am working on it. A revised list will definitely include Paris and the accompanying text will stress its pivotal role in developing the institution of the university. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:44, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Madrasahs and Universities

I noticed some bias in the article and that led to the exclusion of The Al Karaouine University which is considered by the Guinness book to be the oldest continuously operating academic degree-granting university in the world. The word Madrasah literally means "School," so I do not understand why the big fuss. Al Karaouine University did grant degrees, and that is essentially what universities all about. Regarding religious aspects of the schools, it was normal at that time, and that should not disqualify a university to be included in the list. After all, Oxford University did teach its students in a Chapel, and it did have strong ties with the Church but that did not disqualify it or other similar universities from being in the list.

If you insist on excluding Al Karaouine University from the list, then maybe this page should be restricted to European universities and another page for Oldest World Universities should be created. In short, any school/educational institution that was established before 1500 and used to grant degrees and still in continuous operation should be in the list regardless of being culturally different to European Universities. Otherwise, we are just being biased since we are not abiding by our own definition of the word university. Thank you. - Hatesediting 02:41, 24 June 2011 (BST)

This was discussed here ad nauseam, see archives of this talk page. --Yopie (talk) 07:53, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
- Gotta agree there. The current position with some explanation is as good as we can reasonably get. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:16, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
  - The Guinness Book is a fine source for quantitative records such as who annihilated the most beer or hot dogs, but it cannot replace scholarship on qualitative questions such as the difference between universities and madrasahs—not even remotely. If you want to stop being biased, edit List of oldest madrasahs in continuous operation instead, where Al Karaouine exclusively belonged to until 1947. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 09:45, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
    - Agreed, scholarly sources should take priority. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:57, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
      - Thank you all. I agree that we need better references. I have access to a wide range of scholarly sources, and I will do some research and will get enough scholarly references to include the Al Karaouine University on top of that list. @Yopie: yes I had a look at the history, and I noticed that discussions were fruitless, and that the main issue is with the references; a matter that I intend to solve once and for all. Once enough scholarly references are found, the only remaining reason for not including the university in the list would be based on prejudices against the Islamic culture. I will update the article once I lay my hands on the scholarly references. --Hatesediting (talk) 09:32, 24 June 2011 (BST)
        And please don't forget to make yourself acquainted with What is a university? which may still know from the days when you tried to include the madrasa of Al Karaouine in the list as an anonymous IP. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 09:39, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
        I do not appreciate your tone and I do not think it is inline with Wikipedia's policy. Let us keep things on a professional footing, and let me assure you that when I do things, I do them in broad daylight. Thank you. Hatesediting (talk) 11:01, 27 July 2011 (BST)
        Gun Powder Ma, please realize that this is not about winning or losing a debate, nor is it about asserting personal beliefs. If enough scholarly references explicitly state that Al Karaouine is the oldest university in continuous operation, then Al Karaouine has to go in the list even if you and I are not convinced. And if you have something to say about this, you can create a section in the article stating and referencing why you think there is a difference. But again, that does not mean that you can remove the university from the list just because you disagree. I am sure that we will make this a better article. Thank you. --Hatesediting (talk) 11:19, 27 July 2011 (BST)
        To be fair to Gun Powder Ma this has been discussed extensively and not always well, so I think tempers are unfortunately frayed around this. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
        For any scholarly references explicitly stating that Al Karaouine is the oldest university in continuous operation, I'll give you five sources explicitly stating the university of Al Karaouine was founded in 1947. Why don't you cut your query short and contact the university for a photocopy of its charter including the founding date? We could use it well for the Africa section. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 08:29, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
        @Eraserhead1: No worries, thanks for the explanation though. @Gun Powder Ma: I do not see the problem here. Conflicting views are not news to anyone in the academic world. So I will use my scholarly references to include the university of Al Karaouine in the list, and you can use your references along with the university charter to create a new section and explain the controversy of the first place. Problem solved. Hatesediting (talk) 06:30, 28 July 2011 (BST)

I have added the dispute sign that was removed by Yopie. Please do not remove the dispute banner until the issue of university of Al Karaouine is fully resolved. There has been numerous discussions about this, and no agreement has been reached yet. I did propose a reasonable solution in my last post, but I have got no response so far. --Hatesediting (talk) 11:59, 02 August 2011 (BST)

Been answered for over a month. Cf. 15:46, 30 May 2011 & 23:41, 1 June 2011 at Talk:List of oldest universities in continuous operation/Archive 1. This whole discussion whether Al Karaouine was an university or not has no place here, but should be moved to the respective article. What you are doing is holding an entire article hostage because you disagree with a single entry. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 11:09, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Gun Powder Ma, with all due respect, this is the place for the discussion since this is the list of oldest universities in continuous operation. And if this wasn't the place, why did not you point this out in previous discussions? Please respond to my last post and do not deflect because I did bring something new to the table. In previous discussions (the one you had with Eraserhead1), you asked for scholarly references, and I told you that I am going to get that. Furthermore, by reading your previous discussions, I realize that you are confusing the word Madrasa (the ones associated with mosques and did not grant degrees - those existed over 1400 years ago and many of them are still in continuos operation but those are not relevant to the university discussion), and the concept that started with Al Karaouine University. Even though the university was not literally called a "university" at that time, it did meet the concept and definition of the word university. It did grant degrees; it did introduce higher education in a variety of subjects; and it was a "community of teachers and scholars." So previous discussions were groundless. I am bringing something new to the table here, and for the sake of objectivity please stop throwing random accusations at people just because you want to keep things the way you want them to be. Thank you. --Hatesediting (talk) 03:24, 03 August 2011 (BST)

In short, I will include the university of Al Karaouine in the list once I have the references, and I will remove the dispute banner. If you disagree, you cannot remove it because it well be well-refernced. So kindly create a new section and explain the "controversy" and support your argument, and let the readers judge on their own! Are we happy by this solution? Thank you all. Hatesediting (talk) 03:24, 03 August 2011 (BST)

Your concept that there were actually two kinds of Madrasas, some associated with mosques and others true universities, is entirely new to me. Not a word of it I can find in the Encyclopedia of Islam or elsewhere. You have been for over a week announcing evidence in support of your position but which hasn't yet arrived. Why don't you bring it to the table now? Otherwise you, and especially your action of tagging the article, cannot but be considered WP:Disruptive per "Cannot satisfy Wikipedia:Verifiability; fails to cite sources, cites unencyclopedic sources, misrepresents reliable sources, or manufactures original research." Gun Powder Ma (talk) 15:03, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Gun Power please can you try and be civil about this. Hatesediting isn't being disruptive if he brings scholarly sources to the table. Tagging articles is generally considered reasonable if you are discussing the matter and Hatesediting is discussing it. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:26, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Gun Powder Ma, you misunderstood my statement. Let me rephrase: both types were associated with mosques. The only difference is that Al Karaouine was an institute of higher education that granted degrees. But I stressed the word mosque for the first category since almost every mosque was a Madrasa too. The point here is that Al Karaouine took that existing concept to a whole new level, thus became an institute of higher education and not just a regular school in a mosque. But for the time being, I will just focus on the issue at hand, that is, finding proper references that state that Al Karaouine university is the oldest university in the world. And once you create the controversy section, I will try to contribute and elaborate on what I just said about Madrasas. I will be working on the references during this weekend, and will update the discussion and the article. Thank you. Hatesediting (talk) 08:41, 04 August 2011 (BST)

PS @Gun Powder Ma, as to why I have been discussing this for over a week, it is because you have been very evasive, and never agreed that scholarly references are enough to include the university in the list. So I was trying to understand your argument and all the dimensions of the issue. But it is clear to me now that we will not come to an agreement, and that is why references must have the final word in the matter. Thank you. Hatesediting (talk) 08:53, 04 August 2011 (BST)

Fine. Bring the evidence forth until Saturday. We can only discuss scholarly references when they are on the table. Please let me stress again that we are gracious in allowing you to tag the article even though you have failed to produce evidence so far. I hope you are aware that your tag misguides many readers day after day into believing something is wrong with the article for which, however, you have not given any evidence yet. That is why I am saying you are holding the article hostage. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 08:33, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Gun Powder Ma, it is not about being gracious, Wikipedia is giving me the right to tag, and I am utilising that right. The tag is only a couple of days old, and the issue is being discussed and resolved, so readers are not misguided and no one is holding this article a hostage. If you are unhappy with Wikipedia's policy, then please suggest some amendments but then this is neither the time nor place for it. When I said the weekend, I meant Sunday too. Talk to you soon. Hatesediting (talk) 012:15, 04 August 2011 (BST)
- Thank you all for the time to discuss this. We have reached a dead end and did not come to an agreement, so it is clear that we need external help in order to resolve the matter as Eraserhead1 has suggested. I am very busy this summer, and cannot give any follow up discussions the time they deserve. So I will remove the dispute tag since I was the one who placed it, and in due time, I will come again and start Wikipedia’s process of solving disputes. Until then, thank you and good bye. –Hatesediting 01:58 06 August 2011 (UTC)

Adding University of Al Karaouine and removing the dispute tag

I found some time to do a quick research today, and here are the more reliable references (below). These references meet the Wikipedia:Verifiability requirement, and they provide enough reasons to include University of Al Karaouine in the list. If you disagree, please do not remove the university from the list, but add a new section explaining why the university should not be in the list and support your argument. If I have time soon, I will format these refernces properly and include them along with the university in the article.

Here are the references:

1) Engineering Education in the Arab World by M. Ali Kettani. Publisher: Middle East Journal Vol. 28, No. 4 (Autumn, 1974), pp. 441

2) ‪Encountering the World of Islam‬ edited by Keith E. Swartley Publisher: Authentic Page: 74 Year: 2005

“The oldest university in the world, still functioning after eleven hundred years, is the Islamic university of Fez, Morocco, known as the Qarawiyyin. Islamic learning influenced the West greatly through Spain.”

3) ‪The Marketisation of Higher Education and The Student As Consumer‬ By Mike Molesworth, Richard Scullion, Lizzie Nixon

Publisher: Taylor & Francis, Inc. Page: 26 Year: 2010

4) ‪Developing Cultural Capability in International Higher Education By Sheila Trahar Year: 2011 Page 12 Publisher: Routledge

5) Historical Facts: Middle Ages Author: Amanda Oneil Year: 1992 Publisher: Crescent Books Page: 14

“The world's oldest surviving university was founded in Fez (in modern Morocco) in 859”

6) Encyclopedia of Women & Islamic Cultures: Economics, education, mobility, and space Author: Suad Joseph, Afsaneh Najmabadi Page: 314 Publisher: Brill Year: 2003

I will update the article once I have some time to do so. Thank you all. Hatesediting (talk) 02:19, 04 August 2011 (BST)

University and references added to the list. Dispute tag removed. The rest of the article remains untouched and needs to be updated. Hatesediting (talk) 06:46, 05 August 2011 (BST)
- @ Yopie, you removed my entry and sources that meet Wikipedia's References policy. The issue has been discussed for over 10 days, but you have not been an active participant in the discussion, yet you reverted my edits in less than an hour. Furthermore, you violated Wikipedia's policy of Good Faith. My references do not need your approval, as Wikipedia requires you to assume good faith in edits. If you find something suspicious or not up to standard then please point this out in the discussion before your remove it from the article. Please be more considerate to others' contributions --Hatesediting (talk) 07:38, 05 August 2011 (BST)

It's not so much a question of good faith, as that exceptional claims require exceptional sources, and this requirement isn't met here. "Historical Facts: Middle Ages" isn't the kind of scholarly in-depth source that discusses the history of the university to the level of depth required to support your claim. It is an extremely shallow, generalist source that does not go into any depth about the history of the university. You cannot use such sources to make such claims. No way. Athenean (talk) 07:07, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

He added five sources, you need to explain how all five aren't appropriate. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:15, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

First can we agree that the Historical Facts source is inadequate? Second, he only added four sources, as two sources was added twice (Swartley and "Historical Facts"). But the same criticism is true for those four as well. None are in-depth sources about the history of the university. "Engineering education in the Arab world", an article in Middle East journal from the 70's? "Encountering the world of Islam"? That again sounds like an extremely shallow generalist source. Come on now, let's be serious here. Athenean (talk) 07:21, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Yopie did violate the Good Faith policy because he cannot just revert edits that has been published 9 minutes ago without anything seriously wrong with them. Let us do this the simple "yes" and "no" style: Are references considered reliable and acceptable according to Wikipedia's policy? The answer is "Yes." Shallow or not, discusses the matter in depth or not, as long as the references are reliable and prove the point, then the entry cannot be removed. It is widely accepted that Al Karaouine university is the oldest in the world. Many researchers, scholars, and organisations (including UNESCO) believe that the university is the oldest in the world, so you cannot just say that all those do not know what they are talking about and that we should remove the entry. Opposing views are, of course, welcome, so please create a section and provide in-depth analysis, as to why you do not think the university is the oldest in the world. In a nutshell, if two conflicting views are present then neither of them should be removed, instead, both should remain in the article and both should be referenced and explained. This way, readers will be able to make their own in-depth anaylsis. Thank you. Hatesediting (talk) 08:35, 05 August 2011 (BST)

PS Historical facts are adequate, Wikipedia does not say they are not. Please explain your argument in another section as I pointed out above. Thank you. Hatesediting (talk) 08:38, 05 August 2011 (BST)

By the way, the basis of your argument is invalid: you said "that exceptional claims require exceptional sources, and this requirement isn't met here," and the claim of Al Karaouine University as the oldest university in the world is by no means "exceptional." Simple proof is that UNESCO and Guinness Book of Records already acknowledged it as the oldest university. So there is no need for "exceptional" references since this is not an "exceptional claim". Thank you. Hatesediting (talk) 07:49, 05 August 2011 (UTC)

Regarding shallowness of sources, you call a source "shallow" because it "sounds" shallow? So you did not bother looking, yet you also reverted my edits? Kindly take this matter seriously and have some respect to others' contributions. The reference you said that it sounded shallow (Encountering the World of Islam) is actually an "in-depth" analysis of the history of Islam in various aspects including education. Needless to mention that we do not need "exceptional" references in the first place. Thank you. Hatesediting (talk) 08:10, 05 August 2011 (UTC)

Just wanted to add these two to the table:

Malik, A. B. The Champions of Change. Publisher: Maqbool Academy. 2004. Page: 29 (the author of this book got the UNESCO Confucius Prize for Literacy)

Title: Eleven centuries in the University of al-Qarawiyyin [245 - 1380/ 859-- 1960], Author: ʻAbd al-Hādī Tāzī, Publisher: The Ministry of Education, Year: 1960, Language: English

Thanks. Hatesediting (talk) 09:42, 05 August 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can see none of these references talks us through why K. has to be considered a university, none give us a discussion. They all use "university" purely as a generic term, but this does not count as this is a retrospective and anachronistic use. We have reached this point of discussion many weeks ago and I am a bit surprised that you want to start us arguing over this point all over again. So where are the scholarly sources which discuss why K. has to be considered not a mosque school but a university? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:46, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

That's where you come in. Please bring your controversy to the table, create a new section, and I will gladly elaborate. Meanwhile, you have no right to delete an entry and its references. References did call it a "university;" references are reliable, so why did you remove them? I told you before that the argument of Madrasa and University needs a section on its own where we can discuss this issue. If the reliable references 'A', 'B', and 'C' say that 'X' is a "black cat," then you have no right at all to remove the entry because the references are reliable and published. If you disagree, all what you can do is bring what you have to the table and build an argument in the article, so that readers can judge on their own.

The dispute is not resolved. The tag should remain until the Mediation Cabal look into our dispute. I will also undo your revert because you have no right to remove a well-referenced entry. The argument of Madrasa vs. University is a whole new philosophical discussion that should be discussed separately (e.g. Oxford is already in the list yet it had strong association with the Church and did not start as a fully-fledged university at the time of founding, so if that is your argument, why is Oxford and similar universities are still in the list?). Meanwhile, my references, and many others, state the Al Karaouine is 1) A university, 2) Founded in 859. And finally, the university did meet the definition of the word university at its early days. These reasons alone entitle the university to be in the list. Thank you. Hatesediting (talk) 14:10, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you all for the time to discuss this. We have reached a dead end and did not come to an agreement, so it is clear that we need external help in order to resolve the matter as Eraserhead1 has suggested. I am very busy this summer, and cannot give any follow up discussions the time they deserve. So I will remove the dispute tag since I was the one who placed it, and in due time, I will come again and start Wikipedia’s process of solving disputes. Until then, thank you and good bye. –Hatesediting 01:58 06 August 2011 (UTC)

Al Karaouine: Pro, contra and undue weight

Let us get briefly the bigger picture. There are six types of evidence which need to be considered to classify Al Karaouine as an university or not:

PRO

Scholarly sources which generally support the notion that Islamic mosque schools were universities
Scholarly sources which specifically support the notion that the mosque school of Al Karaouine was a university.

For both types it is crucial to disregard references which use the term "university" in a retrospective and anachronistic manner but fail to provide a rationale why they do. These are useless as there is no way to disprove that the authors are simply careless about their language and unaware of the deeper, true meaning of university and its historical singularity. What we rather need are scholarly sources which make an explicit case for Islamic madrasahs to be considered universities in the narrow and historically correct meaning of the term. Only such discussions are valid from an encyclopedic point of view.

Contra

Scholarly sources which generally support the notion that the university was peculiar to medieval Europe and an European creation
Scholarly sources which name individual European universities like Bologna, Paris etc. as the oldest universities
Scholarly sources which specifically support the notion that the medieval mosque school of Al Karaouine was just that, a mosque school or madrasa
Scholarly sources which support the notion that the mosque school of Al Karaouine became a university as late as 1947

It is evident that WP:Undue weight dictates us that as long as the contra sources are overwhelmingly in number and sound scholarship, an inclusion based alone on a few pro sources would be undue. As of today, Hatesediting has not provided a single reference which complies with the PRO criteria as laid out above, not one. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:33, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Contra (examples)

1. Rüegg, Walter: "Foreword. The University as a European Institution", in: A History of the University in Europe. Vol. 1: Universities in the Middle Ages, Cambridge University Press, 1992, ISBN 0-521-36105-2, pp. XIX–XX,

1. George Makdisi: "Madrasa and University in the Middle Ages", Studia Islamica, No. 32 (1970), pp. 255-264 (264):

Thus the university, as a form of social organization, was peculiar to medieval Europe. Later, it was exported to all parts of the world, including the Muslim East; and it has remained with us down to the present day. But back in the middle ages, outside of Europe, there was nothing anything quite like it anywhere.

1. Negative support: Encyclopedia of Islam has an entry on "madrasa" but notably lacks one for a Muslim "university" (Pedersen, J.; Rahman, Munibur; Hillenbrand, R. "Madrasa." Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition. Edited by: P. Bearman , Th. Bianquis , C.E. Bosworth , E. van Donzel and W.P. Heinrichs. Brill, 2010, retrieved 21/03/2010)

2. Verger, Jacques: "Patterns", in: Ridder-Symoens, Hilde de (ed.): A History of the University in Europe. Vol. I: Universities in the Middle Ages, Cambridge University Press, 1992, ISBN 0-521-36105-2, pp. 35–76 (62–65): Verger lists as the five oldest universities Salerno, Bologna, Vicenza, Palencia, Paris.

3. Andrew Petersen: "Dictionary of Islamic architecture, Routledge", 1996, ISBN 9780415060844, p. 87: Al Karaouine founded in 859 AD as a mosque:

The Qarawiyyin Mosque, founded in 859, is the most famous mosque of Morocco and attracted continuous investment by Muslim rulers.

3. James Fergusson: "Taliban: The Unknown Enemy", Da Capo Press, 2011, ISBN 9780306820335, p. 69: Al Karaouine founded in 859 AD as a madrasah:

The oldest madrasah in the world, the Jami'at al-Qarawiyyin in Fez, Morocco, has been operating benignly – and continuously – since it was established in 859.

3. Y. G.-M. Lulat: "A history of African higher education from antiquity to the present: a critical synthesis", Studies in higher education, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2005, ISBN 9780313320613: Designation as madrasah:

As for the nature of its curriculum, it was typical of other major madrasahs such as al-Azhar and al-Qarawiyyin, though many of the texts used at the institution came from Muslim Spain.

4. Kevin Shillington: "Encyclopedia of African history", Vol. 1, New York: Taylor & Francis Group, 2005, ISBN 1579582451, p. 1025 Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:53, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

- Why were not the following included in the pro since they are the basic conditions of our list? Include these in the pro, and the university is easily included:

1) A foundation date before 1500

2) To have been in continuous operation

3) To meet the definition of the word university

4) To be referred to as a "university"

Thanks. Hatesediting (talk 15:13, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

- - By the way, you have been speaking of scholarly references, but have you paid attention to the references you just cited? Your references are no more scholarly than my references. Thus, my references should be acceptable since they are of a similar quality (if not better) to what you just cited. And are you really citing "Taliban: The Unknown Enemy" in a scholarly discussion about universities? Thanks. Hatesediting (talk 15:26, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

- - Thank you all for the time to discuss this. We have reached a dead end and did not come to an agreement, so it is clear that we need external help in order to resolve the matter as Eraserhead1 has suggested. I am very busy this summer, and cannot give any follow up discussions the time they deserve. So I will remove the dispute tag since I was the one who placed it, and in due time, I will come again and start Wikipedia’s process of solving disputes. Until then, thank you and good bye. –Hatesediting 01:58 06 August 2011 (UTC)

Overcomplicating a Simple Issue

Gun Podwer Ma, your pro/contra is uncalled for at this stage. The conditions for ANY university to be included in the list are:

1) A foundation date before 1500

2) To have been in continuous operation

3) To meet the definition of the word university

4) To be referred to as a "university"

Al Karaouine meets all those (and so does Al Azhar), and I mentioned the reliable references for Al Karaouine. If any university meets those simple conditions it should be in the list. After that, we can discuss your argument, pro/contra in a new section. As I told you, there will always be conflict and disagreement, but that does not give anyone the right to exclude any university that meets those straightforward conditions. Please remember, a university does not have to personally convince you to be in the list, it just needs to meet the criteria and that is all. Hatesediting (talk 15:09, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Guys if you can't agree I suggest you escalate this to at least the Mediation Cabal. Of note I have no interest in participating further. I personally am fully satisfied by the current compromise. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:05, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you all for the time to discuss this. We have reached a dead end and did not come to an agreement, so it is clear that we need external help in order to resolve the matter as Eraserhead1 has suggested. I am very busy this summer, and cannot give any follow up discussions the time they deserve. So I will remove the dispute tag since I was the one who placed it, and in due time, I will come again and start Wikipedia’s process of solving disputes. Until then, thank you and good bye. –Hatesediting 01:58 06 August 2011 (UTC)

Unjustified comments removal

Here are a comment that was removed before but that should be shown:

Having read through the archived discussion, I agree with the above poster that this article privileges an overly narrow, European concept of "university." The article should frankly admit that the topic is controversial, and that depending on the definition, various institutions might qualify as the "first" university. (Along the way, I think we should eliminate the "continuous" as well, for reasons given above.) May I say that both quality and collegiality would be considerably improved if Mr. Ma could be somehow blocked from participating.--Dawud
— 111.240.168.238, 15:11, 26 October 2011

--Omar-Toons (talk) 00:44, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Oxford

The list currently gives the year of Oxford's foundation as 1096 and includes the quote "Claimed to be the oldest university in the world, there is no clear date of foundation of Oxford University, but teaching existed at Oxford in some form in 1096 and developed rapidly from 1167, when Henry II banned English students from attending the University of Paris." The quoted text is straight from the Oxford website, but "teaching ... in some form" does not necessarily mean there was a university. Page 110 of Sanz, Nuria; Bergan, Sjur (eds) (2002), The Heritage of European Universities, Council of Europe Publishing, ISBN 92-871-4960-7 {{citation}}: |first2= has generic name (help) includes a table with foundation dates of the earliest European universities (and gives the foundation date of Oxford as 1167). I wonder if that might provide a useful example to follow. Nev1 (talk) 12:34, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Any opinions on the foundation date for Oxford? Nev1 (talk) 01:30, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

If the source is as you quoted, I would be inclined to have 1167 as its foundation date. But I would mention in the notes that teaching had started by 1096. Given the disagreements on Oxford (and others are bound to arise too) the best way to go is to include all major POVs in the notes section.VR _talk 02:47, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

How come Oxford is second oldest in the world ? Please be kind rewind. And stop erasing my comments and contributions. May I suggest you these links : http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-oldest-universities-in-the-world.htm The list of the oldest universities in the world varies, depending on how one defines a university. If a university is considered to be a degree granting institution, all of the world's oldest universities are located in Europe, where the practice of granting certification was widespread by the 1100s. However, many institutions of advanced learning in Asia and Africa are far older than European universities, and rightly belong on a list of the world's oldest universities when one thinks of them as institutions of learning. Alas, many ancient centers of learning no longer exist. The University of Nalanda, for example, a seat of Buddhist learning in India, was founded in the fifth century BCE, but closed in the 1100s. For the purpose of this list, we are only counting continuously operating institutions of learning, some of which offered degrees later than others. In all instances, the exact date of foundation is sometimes difficult to establish, since many universities organized themselves slowly. By continent, the oldest universities are headed up by the University of Nanjing, in China, founded around 258 BCE. It was only formally termed a “university” in 1888, but it has offered education to Chinese without the issuance of formal degrees for centuries. Next, representing Africa, is the University of Al Karaouine in Fez, Morocco, founded in 859, followed by the University of Bologna in Bologna, Italy, founded in 1088 by students who recruited instructors. In South America, the Universidad Autonoma de Santo Domingo, in the Dominican Republic, was founded in 1536, and Harvard University, in North America, was founded in 1636. Australia followed in 1850 with the University Sydney, and Antarctica does not host a university. Some universities vie for spaces on the list of the oldest universities in the world. Due to changes in university names and charters, some schools have undergone a number of different incarnations which make them difficult to track. Harvard, for example, competes with several other universities and colleges in the United States for the honor of being called the “first” university. If one looks for the oldest universities in the world with the criterion that they also granted degrees throughout their history, the oldest universities in the world are all European, starting with the University of Bologna. The next four oldest universities are: University of Paris (1150), University of Oxford (c. 1167), University of Modena (1175), and the University of Cambridge (1209). The practice of offering degrees in recognition for advanced study spread from Europe to other nations, and also cemented the connection between universities and degrees which persists to this day.

http://collegestats.org/articles/2009/12/top-10-oldest-universities-in-the-world-ancient-colleges/

Unfortunately, the U.S. will never boast a medieval university, as this country’s origins, established in 1776 with the Declaration of Independence, were formed when the oldest university in the world already was about nine centuries old. If you’re interested, we do have a list of the oldest universities in the U.S., by accreditation year. The following list of ten oldest universities in the world shows, through their brief histories, a trend: The university as an autonomous self-governing institution first was developed as religious institutions (madrasahs) that originated in the medieval Islamic world. But, Europe did not fall far behind these Islamic developments, as Italy founded its first university approximately two centuries after the first university developed in Morocco. The last university on this list, the University of Padua in Italy, was founded in 1222 — 270 years before Columbus sailed the Ocean Blue in 1492.

This list is compiled of extant universities, although a few of them closed for brief periods from the effects of war or local disputes. On the whole, the European universities on this list have expanded their campuses and enjoy high rankings in the world today. The list below is compiled in order of the university’s founding.

1 University of Al-Karaouine: Located in Fes, Morocco, this university originally was a mosque founded in 859 by Fatima al-Fihri, a woman. It developed into one of the leading universities for natural sciences. It wasn’t until 1957 that the university added mathematics, physics, chemistry and foreign languages. This university is considered the oldest continuously-operating degree-granting university in the world by the Guiness Book of World Records.

2 Al-Azhar University: This university, located in Egypt, is the world’s second oldest surviving degree-granting institute. Founded in 970-972, this university serves as a center for Arabic literature and Sunni Islamic learning. Al-Azhar university concentrates upon a religious syllabus, which pays special attention to the Quranic sciences and traditions of the Prophet Muhammad on the one hand, while also teaching all modern fields of science.

3 Nizamiyya: This series of universities was established by Khwaja Nizam al-Mulk in the eleventh century in what is now present-day Iran. The most celebrated of all the Nizamiyya schools is Al-Nizamiyya of Baghdad, established in 1065 in Dhu’l Qa’da and that remains operational in Isfahan. But, this was just one of many Nizamiyyah schools — others were located in Nishapur, Amul, Mosul, Herat, Damascus, and Basra. The Nizamiyya schools served as a model for future universities in the region, and al-Mulk often is seen as responsible for a new era of brilliance which caused his schools to eclipse all other contemporary learning institutions.

4 University of Bologna: This university was the first higher-learning institute established in the Western world in 1088. The term, “university,” was coined at its creation. Located in Bologna, Italy, this university led the Western world in educational innovations until the period between the two World Wars. At that time, leaders called upon the university to forge relationships with institutions in more advanced countries to modernize and re-invigorate its educational philosophies. This university met the call and, today, is considered a leader in the European university system.

5 University of Paris: This university’s exact founding is unclear; however, teaching from this university existed since 1096. The university was reorganized as 13 autonomous universities in 1970. Often referred to as the Sorbonne after the College de Sorbonne (founded about 1257), this institute grew up in the latter part of the twelfth century around Notre Dame Cathedral as a corporation centered on the fields of arts, medicine, law and theology. In 1968 the cultural revolution commonly known as “the French May” resulted in the closing of the university for only the third time in history. The first occasion was in 1229, and the second was due to the invasion by the German army of 1940.

6 University of Oxford: Like the University of Paris, the exact date of this university’s founding is unclear. The formal founding date, however, is 1096 — although teaching from the Oxford location is considerably older than this date. This institute developed rapidly from 1167, when Henry II banned English students from attending the University of Paris. The school has temporarily closed twice, once in 1209 for the town execution of two scholars and in 1355 for the St. Scholastica riot. Currently, this oldest English-speaking university contains 38 colleges, each with its own internal structure and activities.

7 University of Montpelier: Located in Montpelier, France, this university also is considerably older than its founding date of 1150. A papal bull issued by Pope Nicholas IV in 1289 combined all long-existing schools into one main university. This university was suppressed during the 1793 French Revolution, but the faculties of science and letters were re-established in 1810, law in 1880. This university, in the spirit of modernism, was “re-founded” in 1969. The modern focus is on science and technology.

8 University of Cambridge: Known as the second-oldest university in the English-speaking world, this university was formed by scholars who left the University of Oxford over a dispute in 1209. The two schools have, therefore, a long history of rivalry between them. Currently, Cambridge is ranked as one of the world’s top five universities and is a premier leading university in Europe. As of 2009, the alumni from this university account for eighty-five Nobel Laureates. Cambridge now consists of 31 colleges comprised of over 150 departments, faculties, schools and other institutions.

9 University of Salamanca: Located in Salamanca, Spain, this school was established in 1218 and obtained the title of “university” by Alexander IV’s papal bull in 1225. The school originally was established by Leonese King Alfonso IX to allow the Leonese people to study at home rather than leave to study in Castile. Its historical high note was when Columbus consulted this institute’s scholars in seeking a western route to the Indies. Today, Salamanca remains the university of choice for Spanish students who want to focus on humanities and language studies.

10 University of Padua: This is the second oldest university in Italy, falling behind the University of Bologna. This university was founded in 1222 when a group of students and professors left the University of Bologna in search for more academic freedom. Its primary claim to fame is its anatomical theater, established in 1595, which drew artists and scientists studying the human body during public dissections. The gardens and museums were begun in 1545, and remain as a testament to the focuses on botany and history. As of 2003, this university had approximately 65,000 students. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.204.185.226 (talk) 16:26, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Could you not provide some quality sources? Neither of the websites you linked to look particularly reliable. That said, I have tentatively suggested that the foudnation date for Oxford needs reconsidering. Nev1 (talk) 16:29, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I can see your point, but with the exception of Bologna the foundation dates of all the early medieval universities are unclear. If you start unpicking Oxford you would have to do the same thing to Salamanca and Paris. Regards, Jonathan A Jones (talk) 19:38, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I think it would be useful to scrutinise the entries further, and The Heritage of European Universities does have a table with the dates of universities of places other than Oxford. Nev1 (talk) 19:43, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Always good to do more research, but you won't find definitive answers because there are no definitive answers to questions of this kind. Anyway, will be interesting to see what you turn up. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 21:35, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I would say based on Nev1's first comment in this thread that 1167 should be the foundation date for Oxford. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 04:06, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I can see that point of view. Fundamentally Oxford has no date of foundation because Oxford was never actually founded, but 1167 is a plausible candidate for the year in which it went from being a handful of isolated scholars to an organised community, following the departures from Paris. The date of foundation of Paris is almost as unclear, but by this line of argument must be before Oxford (just as Oxford must be before Cambridge), so the current text seems reasonable. However if we move Oxford then we should also move Salamanca to 1218, as its 1134 date is of comparable quality to Oxford's 1096. (I have seen books that claim Oxford goes back to 3500BC, but I think those can be safely ignored.) Given the current arguments above I would suggest gaining some reasonably clear consensus on this before boldly implementing it. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 08:07, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, I have been checking in Volume 1 of the History of the University of Oxford, which covers the period up to 1349. The early teaching from 1096 clearly refers to Theobald of Etampes. There is some debate as to exactly what level he taught at (he is sometimes described as a school master, but the meaning of that word has changed), though it is clear that at least some of teaching was at a high level. However it is clear that he was a single master with pupils, and not part of a larger community. Thus we can effectively rule out 1096. Theobald was followed by Robert Pullen, who taught in Oxford between 1133 and 1139, when he left for Paris. There is no clear date of foundation that can be ascribed, but the university seems to have come into being between 1135 and 1190. The traditional date of 1167 seems as good as any other. I have also been doing a little browsing around the issue of Salamanca, and once again the date of 1218 seems to be better justified than 1134. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 15:31, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposed new table

Per discussions above, my propsed revision would look something like the table below

Year	Contemporaneous location	Current location	Name	Notes
1088	Papal States	Bologna, Italy	University of Bologna	The first university in the sense of a higher-learning, degree-awarding institute, the word university having been coined at its foundation.^[1]
1150	Kingdom of France	Paris, France	University of Paris	It was founded in the mid-12th century, and officially recognized as a university probably between 1160 and 1170 (or, possibly, as early as 1150). After many changes, including a century of suspension (1793–1896), it ceased to exist as such in 1970 and 13 autonomous universities (University of Paris I–XIII) were created from it. The university is often referred to as the Sorbonne or La Sorbonne after the collegiate institution (Collège de Sorbonne) founded about 1257 by Robert de Sorbon. In fact, the university as such was older and was never completely centered on the Sorbonne. Of the 13 current successor universities, the first 4 have a presence in the historical Sorbonne building, and three include "Sorbonne" in their names.
1167 (probably older)	Kingdom of England	Oxford, England	University of Oxford	"Claimed to be the oldest university in the world, there is no clear date of foundation of Oxford University, but teaching existed at Oxford in some form in 1096 and developed rapidly from 1167, when Henry II banned English students from attending the University of Paris."^[2] Teaching suspended in 1209 (due to town execution of two scholars) and 1355 (due to the St. Scholastica riot), but was continuous during the English Civil War (1642–1651) - the University was Royalist. All Souls College and University College have repeatedly claimed that they own documents proving that teaching in Oxford started in the year 825, but these documents have never seen the public light (allegedly, John Speed dated his famous 1605 Oxford maps based on these documents). However, it was not until 1254 that Pope Innocent IV granted to Oxford the University charter by papal bull ("Querentes in agro").
1218 (probably older)	Kingdom of León	Salamanca, Spain	University of Salamanca	It is the oldest university in operation in Spain. Although there are records of the University granting degrees many years before (James Trager's People's Chronology sets its foundation date in 1134), it only received the Royal chart of foundation as "Estudio General" in 1218, making it possibly the fourth or even the third oldest European university in continuous operations. However, it was the first European university to receive the title of "University" as such, granted by king of Castile and León Alfonso X and the Pope in 1254. Having been excluded from the University in 1852 by the Spanish government, the Faculties of Theology and Canon Law became the Pontifical University of Salamanca in 1940.

References

^ Nuria Sanz, Sjur Bergan: "The heritage of European universities", 2nd edition, Higher Education Series No. 7, Council of Europe, 2006, ISBN, p.136
^ A brief history of the University of Oxford, Oxford University

with Salamanca slotted in at the appropraite place for 1218, between Arezzo and Padua. Comments welcome! Jonathan A Jones (talk) 18:26, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

That looks good to me. Nev1 (talk) 23:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I only enter the fringes of this talk page, but I agree with Nev's assessment. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 23:25, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Al Karaouine: Pro, contra and undue weight

Let us get briefly the bigger picture. There are six types of evidence which need to be considered to classify Al Karaouine as an university or not:

PRO

Scholarly sources which generally support the notion that Islamic mosque schools were universities
Scholarly sources which specifically support the notion that the mosque school of Al Karaouine was a university.

For both types it is crucial to disregard references which use the term "university" in a retrospective and anachronistic manner but fail to provide a rationale why they do. These are useless as there is no way to disprove that the authors are simply careless about their language and unaware of the deeper, true meaning of university and its historical singularity. What we rather need are scholarly sources which make an explicit case for Islamic madrasahs to be considered universities in the narrow and historically correct meaning of the term. Only such discussions are valid from an encyclopedic point of view.

Contra

Scholarly sources which generally support the notion that the university was peculiar to medieval Europe and an European creation
Scholarly sources which name individual European universities like Bologna, Paris etc. as the oldest universities
Scholarly sources which specifically support the notion that the medieval mosque school of Al Karaouine was just that, a mosque school or madrasa
Scholarly sources which support the notion that the mosque school of Al Karaouine became a university as late as 1947

It is evident that WP:Undue weight dictates us that as long as the contra sources are overwhelmingly in number and sound scholarship, an inclusion based alone on a few pro sources would be undue. As of today, I ave not seen a single reference which complies with the PRO criteria as laid out above. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:16, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Contra (examples)

1. Rüegg, Walter: "Foreword. The University as a European Institution", in: A History of the University in Europe. Vol. 1: Universities in the Middle Ages, Cambridge University Press, 1992, ISBN 0-521-36105-2, pp. XIX–XX,

1. George Makdisi: "Madrasa and University in the Middle Ages", Studia Islamica, No. 32 (1970), pp. 255-264 (264):

Thus the university, as a form of social organization, was peculiar to medieval Europe. Later, it was exported to all parts of the world, including the Muslim East; and it has remained with us down to the present day. But back in the middle ages, outside of Europe, there was nothing anything quite like it anywhere.

1. Negative support: Encyclopedia of Islam has an entry on "madrasa" but notably lacks one for a Muslim "university" (Pedersen, J.; Rahman, Munibur; Hillenbrand, R. "Madrasa." Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition. Edited by: P. Bearman , Th. Bianquis , C.E. Bosworth , E. van Donzel and W.P. Heinrichs. Brill, 2010, retrieved 21/03/2010)

2. Verger, Jacques: "Patterns", in: Ridder-Symoens, Hilde de (ed.): A History of the University in Europe. Vol. I: Universities in the Middle Ages, Cambridge University Press, 1992, ISBN 0-521-36105-2, pp. 35–76 (62–65): Verger lists as the five oldest universities Salerno, Bologna, Vicenza, Palencia, Paris.

3. Andrew Petersen: "Dictionary of Islamic architecture, Routledge", 1996, ISBN 9780415060844, p. 87: Al Karaouine founded in 859 AD as a mosque:

The Qarawiyyin Mosque, founded in 859, is the most famous mosque of Morocco and attracted continuous investment by Muslim rulers.

3. James Fergusson: "Taliban: The Unknown Enemy", Da Capo Press, 2011, ISBN 9780306820335, p. 69: Al Karaouine founded in 859 AD as a madrasah:

The oldest madrasah in the world, the Jami'at al-Qarawiyyin in Fez, Morocco, has been operating benignly – and continuously – since it was established in 859.

3. Y. G.-M. Lulat: "A history of African higher education from antiquity to the present: a critical synthesis", Studies in higher education, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2005, ISBN 9780313320613: Designation as madrasah:

As for the nature of its curriculum, it was typical of other major madrasahs such as al-Azhar and al-Qarawiyyin, though many of the texts used at the institution came from Muslim Spain.

4. Kevin Shillington: "Encyclopedia of African history", Vol. 1, New York: Taylor & Francis Group, 2005, ISBN 1579582451, p. 1025 Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:16, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Added the above, on page 119 of Sanz, Nuria; Bergan, Sjur (eds) (2002), The Heritage of European Universities, Council of Europe Publishing, ISBN 92-871-4960-7 {{citation}}: |first2= has generic name (help)

In many respects, if there is any institution that Europe can justifiably claim as one of its own inventions, it is the university. As proof thereof and without wishing here to recount the whole history of the birth of universities, it will suffice to describe briefly how the invention of universities took the form of a polycentric process of specifically European origin.

Further Alain Renaut who wrote the relevant chapter cites Verger Les Universités au Moyen Áge; Chartier & Revel (eds.) Les Universités européennes du XVIe au XVIIe siécle; de Ridder-Symoens (ed.) Universities in the Middle Ages; and Brizzi & Verger (eds.) Le universita dell'Europa. These are works specifically on universities rather than more general works such Encyclopedia of Women & Islamic Cultures or Encountering the World of Islam. The consensus of the specialist literature would seem quite clear. Nev1 (talk) 16:17, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I find your position contrary to wiki policies. WP:NPOV requires presenting "all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." There is no mention of "specialist sources". Because "Encyclopedia of Women & Islamic Cultures", and the Oxford Dictionary of Islam are reliable, we must include their views in the article. Doing otherwise is a violation of WP:NPOV.VR _talk 21:44, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Not all sources are equal. When there are specialists they should be heeded over generalists. Nev1 (talk) 21:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Which wikipedia policy says that scholarly and academic generalists must be 100% ignored, erased and wiped out from the article, if they contradict something said by a few specialists?VR _talk 22:09, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

NPOV: Sources that define Al-Karaouine as a university exist and they are reliable. Not mentioning them is contrary to the policy. END.
We can talk about how to explain that on a (foot/)note, but this fact has to be shown
--Omar-Toons (talk) 22:18, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

And you have been repeatedly told that those sources are either low quality (such as children's books), or non-scholarly (UNESCO, Guiness Books). So stop repeating the same thing over and over. Athenean (talk) 22:22, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I think this issue needs mediation, we can't go on like this forever with people continually bringing it up. That said GunPowderMa has bought some good sources to the table here - you need to do the same with sources at a similar level. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:27, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Athenean: you are honestly telling me that the Oxford Dictionary of Islam, published by the Oxford University Press, is either "children's books" or "non-scholarly"?VR _talk 22:35, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Eraserhead1: does the Oxford Dictionary of Islam, published by the Oxford University Press, constitute a "good source" in your eyes?VR _talk 22:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

There are two non-European authors, as proof, that this discussion is not "Eurocentric"
- Higher Education and International Student Mobility in the Global Knowledge by Kemal Gürüz:"Bologna, the site of oldest university in the world".
- The economies of the Arab world: development since 1945 by Yusif Sayigh, Yūsuf ʻAbd Allāh Ṣāʼigh "American University in Beirut is oldest in Arab world"

BTW "Encyklopedia of Woman" does not sound like scholarly work about universities.--Yopie (talk) 22:44, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm disappointed that Yopie didn't quote the source entirely. The 2nd source says "with the exception of Al-Azhar of Cairo (which is essentially an institution for religious studies and Islamic jurisprudence, and which is over 1,000 years old), this [American University of Beirut] is the oldest university in the whole Arab world."

The source appears to suggest that Al-Azhar is a university (and the oldest university in the Arab world) and would thus directly contradict Gun Powder Ma's assertion that there existed no universities outside of Europe in the medieval times.VR _talk 23:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for correct citation, mainly for "Al-Azhar of Cairo -which is essentially an institution for religious studies and Islamic jurisprudence", and this suggest, that this is madrasah. At second, author omits Fez.--Yopie (talk) 23:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Yup, but a university nonetheless. Yes, the author omits Fez. Many sources refer to Al-Azhar, not Fez, as the oldest university in the entire world. For example, this book, published by the Oxford University Press, calls Al-Azhar the oldest in the world. All of this goes to suggest that there is a great diversity of opinion amongst the scholars over this issue. Contrary to what Gun Powder Ma asserts, no consensus exists amongst the scholarly community over this matter.VR _talk 23:44, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

@VR, I would say that it probably is a reasonable source - though I'd need to look more carefully at it and the sources that GunPowderMa has presented to make a better point.

If you want to challenge GunPowderMa here you'll need to bring another half dozen sources at a minimum to the talk of an equivalent standing to the Oxford dictionary of Islam or better. He has already bought forward 8 such sources and Yopie has bought forward two more.

If you can assemble such a number of high quality sources and GunPowderMa isn't prepared to compromise over it (although I should point out that he has been prepared to compromise with me in the summer over this issue) - I suggest taking the case to mediation - unfortunately this seems to get bought up over and over again, and that seems like a good way forward at this point. If that fails try a larger RFC where you invite lots of people to take part by posting it at the village pump etc. - but for that to have a chance you'll need a good amount of evidence - if that fails then the arbitration committee is possibly a reasonable further step to see if there are an behavioural issues here, but we aren't at that point yet by any means.

All in all I personally disagree with GunPowderMa - however he (and others) have bought good sources to the table to backup their claims, and I have already spent far longer on this dispute than I care to, so I'm not going to be putting forward a case here.

The only other comment I have is that - for now - the neutrality tag seems reasonable enough - but you should bring the evidence to the table within a reasonable timespan. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:55, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

"If you want to challenge GunPowderMa here you'll need to bring another half dozen sources at a minimum." I don't think so. If there are 8 reliable sources saying one thing, and 2 reliable sources saying another, the 2 reliable sources still deserve a mention, per WP:NPOV.

But speaking of a specialized source on higher education, here's one: The marketisation of higher education and the student as consumer (p.26).VR _talk 23:03, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

That is not a scholarly source that specializes on the history and origins of the university. Athenean (talk) 23:24, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

It is a source that specializes in higher education. Will you agree that it is a reliable source that meets the criteria of WP:RS?

The source titled "The Oldest University in the World" published in the British Medical Journal (vol. 1, no.1745, p.1269) agrees that the oldest university is that of Fez.

And I haven't started digging into the many non-specialist (but very scholarly) sources that refer to the university as the oldest in the world.VR _talk 23:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Interesting, but is a medical journal really the best source for this subject? Nev1 (talk) 23:39, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

That is just one of the source quoted. I have already quoted one source specializing in higher education. Here is another source that lists the university in Fez as the oldest in the world: Developing cultural capability in international higher education. Don't you think that the subject of "higher education" is relevant to the matter at hand?VR _talk 23:49, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

It's not a source on the history of the university. It only mentions Fez casually and in passing, without delving into the issue of the origins of the university. A source on "marketization" is not what we should be relying on here. Athenean (talk) 01:13, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

What we should be relying on, by definition, are reliable sources. Do you disagree that the above provided sources are reliable? Could you please answer that question? VR _talk 02:18, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

As has been stated already, not all sources are equal. I'd take advice on cooking from a Michelin starred chef, but not on how to drive. The specialist academic sources are more important here. When a source treats a subject tangentially, there are often better sources available. Nev1 (talk) 02:20, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Except I've presented sources on "higher education". I've presented sources on history. I've quoted historians!

You know what I find ridiculous? That you hold such high standards for sources when much of the article is unsourced.VR _talk 02:28, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

And yet you still feel the need to push the British Medical Journal as relevant. Utterly wrong headed. As it happens there's a section below about adding sources to other entries in the table so not so ridiculous. It's a shame you have fixated on this issue alone and aren't interested in any other part of the article. Nev1 (talk) 02:32, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Let me ask you something: if I want to source the claim that the University of Zimbabwe is the oldest in Zimbabwe, do I need to find a source on the "history of education"? Or can I find a generic book on the country of Zimbabwe and use that as a source?VR _talk 02:38, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Neither. You find a source on the history of education in Zimbabwe because that is the subject. It really is very simple. Nev1 (talk) 02:41, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

So would not a source on the history of education in the Arab/Muslim world, or history of education in Africa or "history of education in Morocco, suffice to source the claim that Fez was founded as a university in the 9th century?VR _talk 02:49, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

See logical fallacy. That is a completely different issue. Athenean (talk) 02:43, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

So, Omar, you still have not cited a single source which

calls madrasahs as "universities" and
is scholarly, preferably specialist scholarship on the university and its history and
makes a comprehensive, argumentative case that (Muslim) madrasahs were actually (Christian) universities.

All you have done so far is repeating point 1 time and again, thereby constantly ignoring that the term "university" has become today – exactly because the Western model has been so globally successful that all other centres of higher education were superseded – a generic term, which, however, cannot be applied retrospectively. You still choose to ignore that in fact not only Muslim mosque schools, but also Ancient Greek, Buddhist Indian, Confucian Chinese etc. centres of higher education are all today also sometimes loosely called "universities" — but not because they were such the longest time of their existence, but because "university" is today the only term people are used to use when they refer to centres of higher education. Btw your repeated attempts at declaring madrasahs as 'medieval Muslim universities', even though both have separate articles, and are thus regarded by the community as separate institutions, are not helpful. Calling madrasahs "universities" or vice versa is every bit as plainly wrong as calling mosques churches... Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:40, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

This very reliable source describes how some madrassahs became universities, including the one at Fez.VR _talk 04:01, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

NPOV issue

The discussion is ongoing here.
--Omar-Toons (talk) 23:51, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

The place to discuss this issue is here, not there. Athenean (talk) 01:10, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The NPOV policy is a non-negotiable core content policy of WP. The discussion on the NPOVN takes precedence over any discussion on a talk page or whatever else.
--Omar-Toons (talk) 02:33, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Sheer nonsense. Content disputes are resolved on article talkpages, not by forum-shopping. Athenean (talk) 02:34, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

It was appropriate to take a perceived violation of NPOV since the concern wasn't addressed here.VR _talk 02:35, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

This is a content dispute. That you see both see it is as a violation of NPOV speaks volumes about what your motivations are. Athenean (talk) 02:40, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

On the previous NPOVN discussion, there was a consensus that it is a NPOV issue. END. --Omar-Toons (talk) 09:16, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Consensus by whom? You? Rule is, that parties of dispute are notified in their talk page, if dispute was moved from article to other forum in WP, and you failed with this notification.--Yopie (talk) 14:19, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Consensus by uninvolved users who participated to the first discussion on the NPOVN. [1]

No rule exists about the fact that I must notify anyone about that, however I notified it on this Talk Page on dec. 6th. [2]

Omar-Toons (talk) 04:06, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Falsely claiming consensus and edit-warring is a classic sign of tendentious editing. Please stop it. Athenean (talk) 05:00, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

This is a contents-dispute, not a NPOV dispute, thus it belongs here where users contribute who have shown a long-term interest in the subject and some understanding of it. The only POV I can see is when a Muslim mosque school is declared a Christian university, but again, we are dealing here essentially with what is a historical and semantic thing, not one of preconceptions. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:40, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

The discussion is ongoing here. Uninvolved users clearly found that it is a NPOV case, and since the NPOV is a non-negotiable core content policy of WP, what is decided on the NPOVN prevails on any other discussion. --Omar-Toons (talk) 12:58, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Your attempts at patronizing the other users at where to have a discussion, how this should be led and how it should be interpreted are a bit immature but the real problem is that neither here nor there you have provided evidence of the kind you have been asked for. Can we finally expect you to do this here? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:36, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to request mediation for this later unless someone beats me to it. I'd much rather not get involved but this needs sorting out. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 11:50, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Done -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:25, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Universities

This is an obscene rewrite of the facts. There are many several older universities in Africa that have been in continuous operation in Fez, in Cairo and probably elsewhere as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andak01 (talk • contribs) 14:47, 20 October 2011 (UTC) Let me lay out a more cohesive set of arguments. The article acts as if the only Universities worthy of the name ever were European or American, because they are the basis of modern universities. But the same criteria for discrediting medieval Arabic or Indian or Chinese places of higher learning, that they are too connected to religious teaching is valid for discrediting all of the European medieval universities. Therefore, either start the history of universities sometime in the 18th century with secular learning, or include non-Christian places of higher learning wherever they are. Or just admit to being racist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.248.188.131 (talk) 15:29, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

See archive of this talkpage, this was discussed before.--Yopie (talk) 19:02, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- And in a lot of detail. If you care you'll need to bring lots of academic sources to the table. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:08, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

It was discussed, but no consensus was found.
The UNESCO and the Guiness Book cite Al Karaouine as the oldest university in the world. There are also 4 academical sources stating the same fact.
The NPOV policy is about representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources, then, you can insert a citation of Shillington, who contests that, but you can not remove the whole paragraph, since most scholars and historians consider Al Karaouine as a university, not a "religious medersa" (btw, a religious islamic medersa with jewish students is simply an aberration).
Omar-Toons (talk) 22:59, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Btw, in on side, the UNESCO, the Guinness Book and 4 academics are stating that the University of Al-Karaouine is the oldest one in the world ; in the opposite side, Kevin Shillington, a freelance historian, in stating that it is a university since 1947.

--Omar-Toons (talk) 23:26, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

The issue is discussed Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_29#The_University_of_Al-Karaouine_and_the_List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation here --Omar-Toons (talk) 21:44, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Dear Omar, some notes:
- Article is discussed here, not in some boards.
- Assume good faithReporting someone without discussion to ANI is not in good faith.
- If you "must" report someone to ANI, you must notify him.
- Guinness book and juvenile literature are not reliable scholar sources.
- We use consensus - read this, why your edits cannot be in article until consensus will be reached.--Yopie (talk) 11:33, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

The sections about Al-Karaouine and the fact that Bologna is the oldest university are hidden by  tags ;
The NPOV issue is discussed on the NPOVN board, as usual with NPOV issues ;
The NPOV can not be bypassed by a discussion, it is a fundamental principle of WP.
Omar-Toons (talk) 12:26, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Note: User:Omar-Toons has also been active rewriting the article in the French WP to serve his viewpoint. Without even taking notice of the lengthy arguments and sources presented in teh arhcive here. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:01, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually there is a consensus on FR.WP that non-European universities can be considered as such, and, for information, many users reverted your edits.

The current NPOV case is only discussed on the EN.WP, only for the use on EN.WP.

Omar-Toons (talk) 22:41, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

What goes on in the fr.wp is completely irrelevant to what goes on here. Looking at this talkpage and the discussion at the NPOV noticeboard, I don't see any consensus for adding the madrasahs to the table. You just waited till you thought no one was watching and added them anyway. Well, it's not going to work. Athenean (talk) 02:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Me neither I don't care about what is going on Fr.WP, all that I know is that the NPOVN statued that Middle-Eastern Jami'at (not Medersas) like Al-Karaouine (where Science and Philosophy courses where dispensed and where many Jews studied) (and by extrapolation, Al-Azhar) can be considered as universities and that a notice should be added about the fact that their status is disputed. That was done.

Omar-Toons (talk) 05:49, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

But here you just added them to the table without any qualifying. Just like that. Without any explanation in the article that this is disputed. Without any consensus. No consensus was reached at the NPOVN. And, you removed a whole bunched of relevant sourced info. Completely unacceptable. By the way, are you the same account as Aaljuma (talk · contribs)? Don't lie. Athenean (talk) 07:04, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive_29#The University of Al-Karaouine and the List of oldest universities in continuous operation : There is a consensus on the fact that excluding non-European universities from this list is a POV

Otherwise, feel free to ask for a RCU if you think that I can't assume a consensual position, I have no time to waste to prove I-dunno-what-to-you. --Omar-Toons (talk) 09:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

The French Wikipedia should be treated as irrelevant... -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:34, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree --Omar-Toons (talk) 10:18, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Note, that on NPOV board was not reached consensus! BTW Guiness book is not scholar book.--Yopie (talk) 11:51, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. There is no consensus. This topic has been discussed for much over last year and the community, dear Omar-Toons, would appreciate if you could first address the arguments which have been in the course of this discussion. For a start, could you be so kind and quote from the Guinness book? It just seems to be posted and reposted by people who have not even read it.

The NPOV board discussion suffers from the same logical and historical flaw as earlier ones: The fact that the Christian university and Muslim madrasah were both centres of higher education does not mean that the madrasah was a university, just as the fact that both blacks and whites are men does not mean that black are white people. Equating madrasahs with universities is a classic category mistake: both belong to the same category 'centres of higher education' but they are different members of this category just as blacks and whites are different members of the category 'men'. Those authors who term madrasah in retrospective "university" do so only because, due to its extraordinary historical success in modern times, the university has become today almost synonymous with a centres of higher education. But usage of the term in 2012 does not determine its usage for 1400, 1600 or 1800. This would be a classic anachronism as has been pointed out so often now. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:33, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I think it violates WP:NPOV to give credence only to those views that regard universities to be 'peculiar' to Europe and disregarding other ones. We should present both views fairly.VR _talk 21:34, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Except one view is scholarly, the other is not. Obviously more weight should be given to the scholarly view, to the extent that any weight should be given to the non-scholarly view. Athenean (talk) 03:55, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The "other" view is held by professors of history and education. It is found in books published by university presses.VR _talk 04:06, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Nope, not really. None of the sources provided for your POV are in-depth scholarly analyses of the history and origins of the university. Athenean (talk) 04:47, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

But I never made that claim. I only claimed my sources are reliable and scholarly (see my list of sources). Do you dispute that claim?VR _talk 05:15, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I certainly dispute that claim for the journal article from 1894, and for the Engineering Education in Arab World article. Now, you may have made no claim that your sources are specialized in the origins of the university (and I never claimed you did), but the trouble for you is that the other side has made that claim, and even worse, it stands up to scrutiny. As such, those sources should be given preponderance over your generalist sources (repeating myself yet again). Athenean (talk) 07:39, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

So you agree that the rest of the sources (besides the two that you mention) are WP:RS? Please say "yes" if you do. Otherwise provide reasons why books published in university presses and authored by professors do not constitute reliable in your opinion.

"Engineering Education in Arab World" was published in Middle East Journal, which is a peer-reviewed journal. Now if you will continue to insist that a peer-reviewed journal is not reliable, without providing good reason, then I'll take this to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard to get broad community opinion.

Similarly, what is your reason for denying the reliability of an 1894 publication in the British Medical Journal? I'm not sure if age is a factor in WP:RS.

"those sources should be given preponderance over your generalist sources" Says which wikipedia policy?? (also repeating myself) Which wikipedia policy says that something claimed by a dozen reliable generalist sources, but contradicted by a dozen (I have actually yet to see more 5 that claim Bologna) reliable specialist sources must be removed from the article and can appear, at most, in the footnotes section?VR _talk 12:16, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to take any sources you want to WP:RSN. The fact that you insist that a publication from 1894 should be used speaks volumes about your idea of sourcing, so there is no point in repeating myself yet again regarding the specialist/generalist distinction. You either can't or don't want to get it. Athenean (talk) 05:02, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

The fact that the first paragraph of this article is without references, and that it contains qualifying sentences such as "(invariably in Europe)" and "universities were first founded in Europe" makes it eurocentric, biased and a POV. User:lamochila —Preceding undated comment added 01:08, 13 February 2012 (UTC).

[1] Nuria Sanz, Sjur Bergan: "The heritage of European universities", 2nd edition, Higher Education Series No. 7, Council of Europe, 2006, ISBN, p.136

[2] A brief history of the University of Oxford, Oxford University

[1]

[2]