Talk:List of oldest buildings in Scotland

Sites not included

For the record - various structures that are not included, usually because they don't meet the height requirement and/or because there is no reliable date. Ben MacDui 12:52, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

• sundry ruined brochs
• Castle Varrich - possibly Viking age but more likely 16th century Canmore.
• Ness of Brodgar 3500 BC but excavated structures are (at present) up to about 1m high.
• Cladh Hallan mummies date from c. 1600 BCE, but buildings from only 1200 BC and are too low.
• Port Charlotte chambered cairn photo. Not clearly of adequate height.
• Bookan cairn ditto
• Knowe of Rowiegar, an Orkney-Cromarty type stalled cairn dated to 3250 BCE but very delapidated. See Canmore and Fraser, David (1980) "Investigations in Neolithic Orkney".
• Rousay, Bigland Long - dates to 3700 (Fraser) but not clear if the structure qualifies Canmore.
• Rinyo and Links of Noltland. Neolithic Orcadian village ruins. No sign of qualifying structures (yet- the latter is undergoing extensive excavations).
• Duffus Castle original timber is 12th C, but keep and bailey built c.1350 - Canmore.
• Buittle Castle - built mid 12th, destroyed 14th C. Canmore
• Blair Castle - the tower was begun in 1269 and is "perhaps partly of that date probably mainly 15th cent." Historic Scotland.
• Muchalls Castle - date of extant structure?
• Duntrune Castle only wall is 13th century
• Dunnyvaig Castle - largely in ruins
• Numerous buildings in Category:Listed monasteries in Scotland e.g Dunfermline Abbey. According to Canmore "The remains of a 13th century chapel, dedicated to St Margaret, which was attached to the E end of the Abbey Church, still survive at the E end of the modern church." but all else is later. . Many others not included have a claim, but no firm evidence that I could see. Ben MacDui 09:00, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
• Blackhammer Chambered Cairn - probably does not meet the minimum height.
• Kilmartin Glen
  • Nether Largie North Cairn - would qualify but completely rebuilt during 1930s excavation.
  • Nether Largie South Cairn - much disturbed and may not meet min. height
  • Nether Largie Mid Cairn - once 10' high but now only 1-3'.

Iona

Perhaps surprisingly Iona Abbey is not yet on the list. Canmore says "The church shows evidence of alterations and additions but since all are made with the same type of red granite they are difficult to date. A suggested building history could be a Romanesque church built about 1190, an eastern building or addition in the 13th century, a rebuilding or enlarging about 1420 and a final refurbishing about 1500." Haswell-Smith comments that the bulk of the existing restoration is based on the 16th century building constructed on the "foundations" of the 1203 Benedictine Abbey. Materials, Technologies and Practice in Historic Heritage Structures by Maria Bostenaru-Dan, Richard Pøikryl, Akos Török pp 119 et seq (available on Google eBooks), states that the cloister was "constructed in the 13th century" but then goes on to grumble that the restoration work was "misguided". It is not clear what remains of the original. Ben MacDui 19:15, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

These sources have bits about St Oran's Chapel and Iona Abbey.

• The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (1997; p843): "St Oran's chapel appears to be mostly 12th cent., but parts may be earlier ... [goes on about crosses] ... Of the 13th-cent. abbey church (later used as a cathedral) only the N. transept and N. side of the choir remain; the greater part of the old building dates from the 15th cent. ... [goes on about 20th century restoration/rebuilding] ... The ruins of the nunnery are also preserved".

• Ideally there would be a bit more detail about what "mostly" means, but as it doens't contradict Canmore I think we can leave it as a qualifying structure for an earlier date.

• McDonald's Kingdom of the Isles (1997; p245): "Although there are few written records, architectural details suggest that the initial construction took place between about 1200 and 1220, with further work commencing in about 1220 and again in 1270, while the fifteenth century saw a final burst of rebuilding before the Reformation. The first church consisted of a short choir without aisles, transepts with small chapels, and a nave with aisles at the east side only. The north transept is the only part of this early church to survive reasonably intact, and it reveals much of what Ranald's church must have looked like with its late Romanesque windows and arches. There is also late twelfth- or thirteenth-century work in the north and west walls, but these were remodelled in the fifteenth century, and most of the choir and the crossing also date from this period". On p246: "St. Oran's is the oldest surviving building on the island, probably dating from the mid- to late 12th century, and may have been erected by the pre-Benedictine ecclesiastical community of Iona. [goes on about dimensions] ... It has been suggested that St Oran's chapel was erected to serve as a family mortuary chapel by either Somerled or his son Ranald..." On p62, McDonald notes the Somerled/Ranald suggestion and cited for it: Dunbar; Fisher Iona (RCAHMS, 1983; p12).

• Given that Canmore doesn't exclude this, that's fine with me. I'll add it.

• Power's Meeting in Norway ... (2005;p28): "... Guðrøðr or his father Óláfr may have built the mortuary chapel on the island, just outside the innermost circle of the monastic enclosure. This building, the oldest to survive on the island, shows evidence of Irish architectural influence and appears to date from the middle of the twelfth century. Its building at this time, and the occasional references to royal visitors in the annals, indicate that the monastery had recovered, if Ordericus' comment on its ruinous state in Margaret's time is to be taken as factual. Though the mortuary chapel was used by the Somerled family, Guðrøðr was buried on the island in 1188".
• This webpage is hosted by the Department of History of Art, at the University of Glasgow, so it should be an okay source: [1]. It says that: "St. Oran's Chapel was probably built by Somerled +1164, or by his son Reginald, and used as burial chapel by his family". For the abbey itself, the page says that the present building is basically 15th century.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 05:00, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

• The University of Glasgow site is interesting and refers to a few more possible candidates. I'll add a note about Somerled to St Oran. Ben MacDui 09:49, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Possible inclusion

Sites for further investigation - possibly for non-qualifying Bronze age. Ben MacDui 15:00, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

• Ardnave Canmore.
• Lairg - Barclay p. 161

No sign of an RS for a date

• Vementry chambered cairn

List of oldest structures in Scotland?

Should tombs/chambered cairns be included in a "list of oldest buildings in Scotland" or should they have their own article? The definition of a building in the current lede:"defined as any human-made structure used or intended for supporting or sheltering any use or continuous occupancy". I see tombs as having a different function and think they need their own list. Another idea: the List could be re-named "List of Oldest Structures in Scotland" and include tombs. Is the list getting too long? Would it be better to break the list up into the different regions or counties of Scotland? I would love to see a discussion on improving this article. MauraWen (talk) 14:34, 17 February 2022 (UTC)