Talk:List of massacres of Azerbaijanis

List criteria

1) Sources should refer to the incident as a "massacre" 2) I'd like to know how two deaths qualifies as a massacre. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:47, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Mursel doesn't seem to understand the concept of a "massacre". Shootdown of aircraft is not in any country under any circumstances considered a massacre. Neither is a bombing. Also, the user fails to add reliable sources that explicitly support the content of this article. --Երևանցի ^talk 22:12, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

The definition of massacre is not established. Heck, the page massacre even confirms this by stating that "a tight definition has never emerged". For example major media enterprises frequently refer to the Malaysia Airlines shootdown as a massacre [1], [2], etc. So there is a genuine link with the Azeri helicopter shootdowns and the bomb attacks. Massacre doesnt just mean butchering people with hatchets and guns. The fact is that aircraft shootdowns and terrorist actions are also considered massacres.

Also I would appreciate it if you conducted youself according to the WP regulations. Before you can enforce edits or changes, you must have discussion in the talkpage. We have not yet reached a conclusion and yet your pushing your POV. As an experienced user you should know that discussion comes before changes, especially in sensitive subjects. Mursel (talk) 22:47, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

The fact that there is no definition of the term "massacre" doesn't mean you can include incidents, such as downing of two military helicopters in 1991 & 1992, in it. One thing almost all sources seem to agree is that a massacre is the deliberate and intentional killing of a large number of people (especially civilians). Askeran clash does not equate to a massacre. It was exactly what the title calls it: a clash between Armenians and Azeris. Also, only two people were killed. That is not a massacre. Regarding the Guba mass graves. You really need to find reliable (non-Azerbaijani, preferably Western academic sources) to support it. Same goes for the 1994 bombings in Baku Metro. --Երևանցի ^talk 23:46, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I've added a POV tag since no source presents these events as massacre. The language in this article is a lot stronger than any reliable sourse I've come across (i.e. "ultranationalist Armenians"). Also, I have yet to have encountered a source that considers the Deportation from Soviet Azerbaijan, for example, a massacre. Étienne Dolet (talk) 02:30, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

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POV and Undue Weight tags

I have added these for a number of reasons. Three of the "massacres" have no associated articles, or even sources. False piping abounds: for example "Stepanakert pogrom" actually links to 1988 violence in Shusha and Stepanakert (with content that states the only death was that of an Armenian) and "Malibeyli and Gushchular Massacre" actually links to Capture of Gushchular and Malibeyli - an earlier version that used the word "massacre" was changed as being pov and source unsupported. The majority of sources used here are Azerbaijani, a great many of them are obvious non-RS propaganda. Other sources are bizarre: a 1920 provincial English newspaper cited as a source for 15,00 killed in the 1920 Ganja Revolt while the actual article mentions no such figures and uses no such source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.77.10 (talk) 21:25, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Ganja Missiles

I have a problem with including the Ganja attacks as "massacres of Azerbaijanis." If we were to include that, then we have to include the cluster bombs on Armenians in Stepanakert as "massacres of Azerbaijanis." There's no evidence that this was intended as a massacre of Azerbaijani civilians. Responses would be appreciated. Gregathon (talk) 21:11, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

List of massacres of Armenians already includes the whole war as a massacre. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 21:56, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Incorrect. The list contains pogroms and riots in azerbaijani controlled areas. Addictedtohistory (talk) 20:30, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Capture of Shusha (1992)

The question is whether this should be included in a list of massacres.

There is an Azerbaijani source claiming significant Azerbaijani civilian deaths (A. Hasanov) which is not a reliable source in this context.

There is the Helsinki Watch source that notes according to the former residents there was indiscriminate shelling that damaged building, which is not a massacre. Additionally Helsinki Watch is not itself claiming that indiscriminate shelling has certainly occurred, but is rather reporting and quoting former resident accounts of it; Which would make this an appropriate source for an article where we can preface statements with "according to" but not for justifying inclusion in a list where there are no other third-party reliable sources. Maidyouneed (talk) 19:21, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

If you are shooting at civilian areas, indiscriminately, and 100+ civilians die as a result, it is a massacre. You don't shoot at civilian buildings because you dislike the buildings, you do it to hit the people inside.

Of course, it was reported by Azerbaijani civilians, NKR forces would not be the ones reporting it. I doubt Helsinki Watch would include information that does not hold any value to it.

The International Scienfitic Journal publishes peer-reviewed information, so Hasanov's allegation was almost certainly reviewed, hence is reliable.

I suggest we get a 3rd party opinion. Creffel (talk) 20:22, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Recent POV additions without consensus, reverted

See WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE and WP:ONUS. Also see my explanation here, don't wish to repeat myself in talk. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 01:50, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.. Also, the comment was intended for the other user who added Capture of Gushchular and Malibeyli as a "massacre", and a subsection of an article as a massacre with "unclear" figures and high (only) estimate by Az source. Additionally, it's not as clear-cut as you think it is, even Turkish-German historian Taner Akcam writes about those massacres were exaggerated or even outright fabrications. Please discuss before restoring it again, this is a recent controversial addition, and per WP:ONUS (again) it's on you to reach consensus. Btw you reverted me without even replying on talk.

Lastly, you keep restoring the astronomical "10,000-30,000" WP:UNDUE figure by Azeri source, which is 10x higher than the most commonly given one. That is the definition of UNDUE and shouldn't belong in the article. And please, don't trade with guidelines without understanding them fully. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 02:30, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I did not see anything to reply to after your initial revert because you decided to list your explanation in the ES.

• Also, the comment was intended for the other user who added Capture of Gushchular and Malibeyli as a "massacre"

In any case, I shouldn't have to remind you that your conduct should be consistent with all users, even if it wasn't intended to me specifically, it can be widely interpreted as being snide and generally uncalled for due to its offensive connotation.

• and a subsection of an article as a massacre with "unclear" figures and high (only) estimate by Az source. Additionally, it's not as clear-cut as you think it is, even Turkish-German historian Taner Akcam writes about those massacres were exaggerated or even outright fabrications.

Just because the figures were unclear doesn't mean that they did not occur as a massacre, this period of time was very tumultuous, however, even Hovannisian himself on page 520 of The Republic of Armenia Volumes II: From Versailles to London, 1919-1920 (ISBN: 0520041860) makes mention of local Armenians in Zangezur laying waste to "twenty-four Muslim settlements". Even with the assumption (based on Russian Caucasus Viceroy's taxation records of settlements) that each village was composed of some ~150, some ~3,600 "Muslim" inhabitants would have fallen victim to the razing of their villages, therefore, the figure cited in the Azerbaijani source doesn't appear entirely outlandish, especially, to reiterate, that multiple credible sources have attested to the "Armenianization" of Zangezur (modern-day Syunik) through destruction of Azerbaijani settlements. On the topic of Taner Akçam, though his contributions to academic studies of the Armenian Genocide have been significant, there is little doubt of his partiality or bias towards the sufferings of Armenians through the downplaying of the retaliatory measures Armenians have taken against Turks. These measures Thomas de Waal acknowledges in page 75 of his book "Great Genocide" (ISBN: 0199350698), in the fact that Azerbaijanis in Armenia became the collateral victims of the genocide (essentially a fifth column due to their collaboration with the Ottomans):

“Rouben [Ter Minasian, the defence minister of Armenia,] used, in turn, both intimidation and negotiations, but, above all, by his own admission, he used ‘fire and steel,’ ” writes Anahide Ter-Minassian. “Utilizing all available methods, including the most violent ones, fedayee detachments ‘encouraged’ the Muslims of Armenia ‘to leave.’ In their place, Armenian refugees and peasants were immediately settled in the abandoned houses and land.” In this way, Azerbaijanis became the collateral victims of the Young Turks’ genocidal policies of 1915.

On the topic of the 30,000 figure for the March Days massacre published by the aforementioned Azerbaijani source, it was included for the sake of consistency with other entries in the table, as the style is to include the maximalist figure, which if you read carefully, indicated that the estimated figure the small-scale massacres and killings of Tatar peasants throughout the Baku Governorate by Baku Commune forces, not just in the city of Baku itself, therefore, I think WP:BALANCE warrants including this figure in addition to the more conservative ones. 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 07:49, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

WP:WALLOFTEXT just to defend a point, sorry. Please be more concise in your explanation as to: 1) Why do you want to keep the debated Deportations issue in a massacres list, 2) What rationale justifies WP:UNDUE (If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia) astronomical figures 10x higher than common given ones to be included in the article? ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:29, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't see how me directly answering your two points is a WP:WALLOFTEXT, nor do I see it as a valid excuse to ignore an argument, I concisely answered your points, but to reiterate per your request:

1. Why do you want to keep the debated Deportations issue in a massacres list?

Because numerous WP:RS as expanded upon in my above reply indicate that it was a massacre (mass, brutal killing of many people), concurrently with being a forced deportation, not unlike many massacres and genocides in history...

2. What rationale justifies WP:UNDUE astronomical figures 10x higher than common given ones to be included in the article?

The rationale that firstly, it is not WP:UNDUE on the basis that it is academically substantiated—you should understand, the the source does not dispute that 12,000 Tatars were killed in Baku, the difference comes from the inclusion of Tatars who were also massacred across the countryside of Baku. I also haven't seen any evidence provided by you to suggest that the 30,000 figure is "astronomical" or "10x higher than common given ones", I see these as complete exaggerations used to embellish your point, especially given that the figure is only 2.5x higher than the common amount, not 10x as you claim.

- 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 11:35, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

It's inappropriate to link a Deportation article for massacres, not even an article a subsection,. That's just reaching at straws.

"20,000-30,000" isn't the same as "3,000-12,000", it's multiple times higher. And most importantly, it's an WP:UNDUE claim, read the guideline. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 18:15, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

References