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Problems with this article

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  1. The 1929 Hebron massacre was committed when this area wasn't called Palestinian territories.
  2. Do we need an article with such a list? And if we do, perhaps it would be better to have them in a template?

Debresser (talk) 08:29, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have been gradually creating lists of massacres in every country. Since countries have changed over time, I have been included those that have taken place in that country's current land on that list, even when it was a different country back then. On most of these lists, I have indicated that it includes the predecessors. Many of these lists have only 1-2 now, but there have been so many massacres in history (I mean tens of thousands) that all these lists will eventually grow to be a reasonable size for lists. Shaliya waya (talk) 02:27, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Thank you for your reply. Debresser (talk) 05:39, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How many is called a massacre

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Is five dead (Itamar attack) enough to qualify as a "massacre"? What is the minimum? Debresser (talk) 01:29, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What matters is not the actual number dead, but what the event was called. In this case, the article refers to this event as a "massacre" and even many of the references do. On the other hand, the September 11 attacks, in which 3000 people were killed, were never referred to as a "massacre." It has more commonly been called a "tragedy." Shaliya waya (talk) 16:11, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Is this view of yours a consensus view? I find the criteria "what sources have called it" unclear. Perhaps there should be clear-cut criteria what constitutes a massacre, and what not? Debresser (talk) 17:37, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In English usually 3. MWQs (talk) 05:11, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know it's a little late, but to answer your question, the dictionary definition of "massacre" is "the indiscriminate and brutal slaughter of people". In the case of the Itamar attack, five civilians, including three young children, were stabbed to death in their beds. I think the nature of the attack typically determines when something is called a "massacre" and not so much the number of casualties. Which would also be why most suicide bombings in Israel, even ones that kill over twenty people, are usually just called "bombings", while the killings in Itamar, the 2002 attack in Hadera, in which a Palestinian gunned down six people at a Bat Mitzvah celebration, and when a Palestinian gunman attacked a yeshiva and killed eight people, are called massacres. --96.60.170.188 (talk) 20:43, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why are no massacres of Palestinians mentioned in this article?

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Why are the numerous massacres of Palestinians that have occurred in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, for instance during the 1948 war, during the 1956, war during the 1967 war etc. not mentioned in this article? Dlv999 (talk) 22:46, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Because nobody has taken the time to add them. Why don't you? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:28, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like they've been added and removed a few times. MWQs (talk) 05:13, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Persistent removal of text from the 2011 Itamar massacre

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Text that states that the massacre was praised by relatives of the perpetrators, Palestinian terrorist groups, and about one-third of Palestinians has been removed multiple times, despite having several sources. The family did praise the attack, calling it "heroic". To me, it seems quite a stretch to say that isn't praise, but if you want, you can change "praised" to "called it heroic". The statement about one-third of Palestinians supporting the attack is stated in one of the sources. It was praised by militant groups, specifically the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. This is stated in the sources and in the article about the attack.

Please stop removing text.--75.108.95.17 (talk) 16:03, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You have restored two dead links that do not relate to the section. These are http://truman.huji.ac.il/ And

http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article315189.ece Please stop doing this.

You have not provided any RS for the claim that the attack was praised by relatives of the perpetrators. If you are referring to this source http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=255695 then you are mis representing the source. It says that relatives referred to the perpetrators as heroes. They made no reference to the attack. Please remove the incorrect claim.

You have provided new sources. If you are using this one http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/5110.htm as a source for the claim that the attack was praised by Palestinian militant groups, then you are misrepresenting the source. It states that Sawsan Al-Barghouti, a columnist for a website affiliated with Hamas, called the Itamar murders a "heroic act": Please remove the incorrect claim.

I do not see any source for this claim. and about one-third of Palestinians. Please tell me which is the source for this claim. You may be referring to an opinion poll that stated that some Arabs approved of the attack. This is not praise, and that word should not be used. Please correct the errors, and answer my question.Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 17:44, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this in the Talk.

I don't see how calling something "heroic" or its perpetrators "heroes" isn't praise, but to more accurately correspond with the sources, how about change it to "the perpetrators were praised by relatives" or "called heroes by relatives"? "Praised by Palestinian militant groups" can be altered to "Palestinian militant groups called the attack heroic". According to Xinhua, the attack was praised by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades was quoted describing it as heroic.

As for the one-third of Palestinians, I will change "praised" to "supported". The source is the Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace. --75.108.95.17 (talk) 18:53, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The truman institute link does not lead to a page that supports your claimDalai lama ding dong (talk)

Gaza War

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Please discuss the addition of the Gaza War to the list here before restoring it. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 23:46, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

~you have removed this on the grounds that the wikipedia title does not include the word massacre, though it is described as such by RS given in that article. Yet you have restored numerous incidents in list of massacres in israel where the word massacre is not used in the wikipedia title. You can not use two different rules.86.171.209.221 (talk) 04:35, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for replying. Actually, I removed this incident because many believe that it was not a massacre. Worldwide, it is called the "Gaza War." In Israel, it is called "Operation Cast Lead." It is known as the "Gaza massacre" in the Gaza Strip and by Hamas. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 22:34, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You may find it helpful to merge this discussion with the one at Talk:List of massacres in Israel#When is a massacre not a massacre?. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:15, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When are the Palestinian territories?

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Certainly not 1834. Nor 1929. Nor May 13, 1948. This article is not called List of massacres in Palestine. Can somebody explain to me why things that took place when the Palestinian territories did not exist are included in a list of things that occurred in the Palestinian territories? nableezy - 21:23, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There being no response I am removing everything prior to the Israeli declaration of independence. nableezy - 17:14, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Where did it go? MWQs (talk) 05:14, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. But then of course, things that took place on the West Bank in the 50s or 60s when it was part of Jordan don't belong here, either, nor do event in the Gaza Strip in 1956. Hayes Dolce (talk) 20:21, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Im not sure about that. Only one state recognized the West Bank as Jordanian territory between 48 and 67, and Egypt did not even claim Gaza as its territory after 48. nableezy - 20:24, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Can you document any source that refers to the area as "Palestinian territories" in that time frame? Hayes Dolce (talk) 20:48, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Specifically,with regards to Qibya, the official UN report on the incident (http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/017EEFB458011C9D05256722005E5499) repeatedly refers to it as "Jordanian territory". Hayes Dolce (talk) 20:51, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It actually says Jordan territory. And here you go. nableezy - 21:41, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It may also be worth thinking about an alternative list or lists to contain massacres that occurred before the advent of the Palestinian Territories/Israel. Dlv999 (talk) 20:35, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is true that the West Bank and Gaza were not called "the Palestinian territories" in the 1950s and 60s, but I don't think a separate article should be created "to contain massacres that occurred before the advent of the Palestinian Territories/Israel" but that the article should just contain incidents that occurred within the borders of modern Israel and in the West Bank/Gaza. Many Wikipedia articles on lists of massacres in different countries include incidents that took place before that country was established. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 22:27, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Until a decision is reached - to remove all incidents prior to when the West Bank and Gaza were first called the Palestinian territories, which would mean deleting Qibya, Rafah, and Khan Yunis as well, or to keep them - I am going to restore the incidents that were removed from the list. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 23:08, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Im sorry, but I just gave a source, as requested, that referred to the West Bank as Palestinian territories in that time frame. This information already exists in the relevant articles, those being List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine and Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine War. That covers up until mid-May 1948. For events prior to that I suggest making a list List of massacres in Palestine and explain what Palestine means. It is however anachronistic to use Palestinian territories for events that took place centuries before such an idea existed. nableezy - 01:13, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That book was written in 2002. Do you have any sources that referred to the West Bank and Gaza as "the Palestinian territories" before 1967? Many of these articles include incidents that took place in locations before they were called what they are today, so I don't think this article should exclude the massacres in Hebron and Kfar Etzion. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 02:45, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I realize it was written in 2002, however it refers to the territory of that time as Palestinian territories. It is using the term applied to that period of time. Your request for a source from the time period baffles me, I dont have microfilm stores of the worlds newspapers on hand unfortunately. My concern isnt the many articles that litter Wikipedia, my concern is this one. Saying that a poor article is a precedent for this one is not a winning argument. nableezy - 03:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that it is difficult to hunt down a source from before 1967, but other people have already supplied one that describes the West Bank as "Jordan territory" at the time. I believe the purpose of these articles is to give the geographic location of these massacres, within the borders of what is now Israel, Jordan, Syria, France, China, etc. There are other articles for the period in history in which they took place. I think creating an article called "List of massacres in Palestine" would overlap with several others. The "List of massacres in Israel" has the description of "The following are a list of massacres that have occurred in Israel and its predecessors," that makes clear that it includes incidents that took place before the establishment of modern Israel. Perhaps a similar statement should be added for the Palestinian territories. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 21:00, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Would a source describing a pre-1948 massacre as having occurred in Israel be sufficient to allow said massacre to List of massacres in Israel? Surely we don't double standards depending on our POV, right? --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 14:18, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Where exactly would massacres in the West Bank and Gaza Strip between May 48 and June 67 fit? Or would you just like remove such events from Wikipedia? nableezy - 14:40, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think that they, along with the earlier incidents in Hebron and Kfar Etzion, should be allowed to remain in the article, but have the article make clear that this is "a list of massacres that have occurred in the Palestinian territories and their predecessors". That would specify that these are incidents that took place in what is now called the Palestinian territories, but that they also include massacres that occurred prior in the same area. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 19:21, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to restore the massacres in Hebron and Kfar Etzion to the list with the statement that the article includes incidents prior to the West Bank and Gaza being called the Palestinian territories to avoid confusion. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 22:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And I am removing them again. These events did not take place in the Palestinian territories. If you want to make an article List of massacres in Palestine go right ahead. nableezy - 16:38, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Then, in that case, the incidents in Rafah, Qibya, and Khan Yunis should be removed as well, as they also took place before the West Bank and Gaza were known as the Palestinian territories. Either keep everything or remove every incident except the 2011 Itamar massacre and the 1994 Hebron massacre. I still believe that this should include every incident that took place in what is now known as the Palestinian territories, as these articles are about location, not time period. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 05:36, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ive already provided a source referring to the Palestinian territories in that time-frame. nableezy - 15:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You have not given a source from before 1967 that describes the West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian territories at the time. You have named a book written in 2002, decades after Israel took control of the area. Why not change the title of the article to "List of massacres in the West Bank and Gaza"? Would that solve the problem? --68.6.227.26 (talk) 19:26, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As you are removing all incidents named in the Israel article that took place before the establishment of modern Israel and have moved them to "List of massacres in Palestine", I removed all massacres in this article prior to the West Bank and Gaza becoming the Palestinian territories. I am moving the Khan Yunis and Rafah incidents to "List of massacres in Egypt". --68.6.227.26 (talk) 22:41, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Uhh no, Khan Yunis and Rafah were never in Egypt. Egypt never even claimed Gaza as Egyptian territory. That was Palestinian territory, and it remains here. I have already provided a source referring to the West Bank during the period it was under Jordanian occupation as "Palestinian territory". It is not an anachronistic use of the title. If you continue edit warring I will report you and you may be blocked from editing. nableezy - 04:23, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I am being naive here, but it seems to me that dividing time up into relatively short and artificial post-facto chunks is a way of keeping someone from seeing the threads of history. I think that all the various articles should be merged into one "List of massacres in Palestine", which includes Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. Do the work of dividing time in the one article. Separating sections into discreet articles could be used to compartmentalize history. -- Guðsþegn (talk) 00:24, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this. I was in favor of just keeping the "List of massacres in Israel" and "List of massacres in the Palestinian territories" and having them simply both include every incident that has taken place within the modern borders. The articles had opened saying that they included events in "their predecessors" to avoid confusion. However, nableezy has removed everything up to 1948 on the basis that the West Bank and Gaza were not called the "Palestinian territories" at the time and has been arguing to keep those from the fifties even though Egypt controlled Gaza and the West Bank was Jordan territory from 1948 to 1967. I had been arguing to keep all of the incidents from the list, as I believe the point of these articles is to give the geographic location of massacres throughout history. There are numerous other articles for time period.
I deleted the three incidents from the fifties today, though, because they also took place before the West Bank and Gaza were called the Palestinian territories and keeping them while refusing to allow the others to stay is a double standard.
I don't believe the articles should be merged into one "List of massacres in Palestine" because doing so could be seen as undermining Israel's legitimacy. All of the articles in this category are for countries that currently exist, and at this point there is no country called Palestine. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 00:47, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I had suggested renaming this article "List of massacres in the West Bank and Gaza" to solve the dispute over whether or not to include those which occurred prior to 1967, but no one responded. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 00:50, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are now articles for each specific period, pre-Mandate, Mandate, Palestine War, post Israeli independence. Israel's legitimacy is not at stake by calling things that happened in Palestine as having happened in Palestine, and it really is outside of Wikipedia's considerable power to legitimize or delegitimize a state. nableezy - 04:16, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I was referring to the other editor's suggestion that all of the articles be merged into one article called "List of massacres in Palestine". A "List of massacres in Palestine" should not include incidents that took place after Israel declared independence. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 05:40, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It doesnt, right now things are split as I said. And nobody has a given a real reason why they shouldnt be. Each article explains where to find the related lists. Whats not to like about that solution? nableezy - 06:12, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Split

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There doesn't seem to be any conciseness to remove the 1948–1967 info, and it should not have been removed without an appropriate place for that info to go. List of massacres in Palestine points readers here for "massacres that have occurred in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip since 1948" and there is no other article for this info to go yet. It probably can't be List of massacres in Egypt and List of massacres in Jordan because those those were occupations, and the Egyptian occupation only began after the All-Palestine Government rule of Gaza. listing that info there would be like merging this (in it's present post-1967 form) list into List of massacres in Israel I'm reverting it's remodel. As established at Talk:Palestinian_territories#When_were_the_Palestinian_territories_established_1949_or_1967.3F the modern "Occupied Palestinian territories" concept didn't develop until 1967, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we should remove the info, this article is about history. Also the titles of Years in the Palestinian territories articles from 1948–present is "[year] in the Palestinian territories" so removing that info would go against that precedent.

Here's a place for the 1948–1967 info to go if it can't be here: List of massacres in the Gaza Strip (1948–1967) and List of massacres in the Jordanian occupied West Bank. Should this article be split? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:55, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Withdrawn My mistake, it appears that the 1948–1967 info wasn't removed after all, or at least it's in the current version. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 01:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Nableezy removed it at some point, but doesn't seem to have moved it TO anywhere? MWQs (talk) 05:16, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Greyshark09 removed them here, I have no problem restoring them though. nableezy - 15:21, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Itamar and Gaza

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If just being known as a massacre is sufficient for inclusion, then Gaza War also belongs on this page. If the article title needs to include massacre then Itamar attack should be removed. One of the following will be true, both will be included or neither will be. Which of those happens I dont really care, but there will be a consistent rule applied. nableezy - 16:41, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Many people dispute the labeling of the Gaza War as a massacre. It is known as the "Gaza massacre" in the Gaza Strip and by Hamas. It is called Operation Cast Lead in Israel, and it is called the Gaza War worldwide. On the other hand, no one is disputing that the Itamar attack was a massacre. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 05:40, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That does not in any way address the issue. If what is required is that the event is known as a massacre then Gaza War goes in. If what is required is that the article be titled massacre then Itamar goes out. Which is it? nableezy - 15:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is that the vast majority of sources do not call the Gaza War a massacre. The Itamar attack main article opens with a sentence that clearly states that it is also widely called the "Itamar massacre". There are, in fact, more sources describing it as the "Itamar massacre" than the "Itamar attack". The murder of the Fogel family is considered a massacre, and no reliable sources dispute the fact.
Simply providing a source is not enough to include the Gaza War. I can name news reports that describe the 2002 Hebron ambush as the "Sabbath massacre", but the incident still does not belong in this list because the majority of people no longer consider it as such. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 19:43, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And the first sentence of Gaza War clearly states that it is also known as the Gaza Massacre. Which is it, that the article be titled massacre or that it be known as a massacre? You cant say one criteria for this side another for the other. nableezy - 19:02, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It says that it is known in the Gaza Strip and by Hamas as the Gaza massacre. However, that claim is widely disputed. I have never argued against its inclusion on the basis of the article's title, but on the fact that the majority of sources do not consider it a massacre and argue against that label. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 22:12, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What "claim" is widely disputed? What sources "argue against that label"? There are sources saying it is known in the Arab world as the Gaza Massacre. Do Arabs not count now? Answer the question please, it is a straightforward one. What is the requirement for something to be listed here, that something is known as a massacre or that it be called such in the article's title? nableezy - 04:20, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Most Arab sources simply call it the "War on Gaza". The Gaza War is a very controversial issue, and sources disagree on everything from the nature of the conflict to the death toll to the cause to who is to blame. The entry on the Gaza War that was in this article named the IDF as the sole responsible party, though most governments condemned both Israel and Hamas attacks during the war. Many Arab countries condemned only IDF attacks, while many European countries condemned only Hamas attacks. Throughout the war, there were mass civilian demonstrations for and against both sides. There is a consensus among sources that the Itamar attack was a massacre, but there is none on the Gaza War. A number of countries defined it as self-defense on Israel's part, while others called it human rights violations. However, the view of it as "the Gaza massacre" is not the majority opinion. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 05:35, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I havent said a word about most Arab sources. And no, there isnt such a consensus among sources. See for example this or this and tell me where they call that a massacre. I really dont want to get into a discussion on whether it was or was not, thats a bit too macabre for my tastes. I just want to know what the criteria for inclusion is. nableezy - 06:11, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that there should be an accepted view of what took place. Sources do not dispute that there was a massacre at Qibya or Kfar Etzion. No one considers the Itamar massacre to be an act of self-defense. I think that controversial incidents in which sources vary on the nature of what happened, whether it was self-defense or a battle or a massacre, should not be included. Including the Gaza War in a list of massacres when many disagree, as well as naming the IDF as the only responsible party and giving only Hamas statistics on the casualties, is taking sides, which is against Wikipedia's policy. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 22:37, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Who said anything about giving only Hamas statistics on the casualties or otherwise taking sides? nableezy - 22:40, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Again, the entry that was made for the Gaza War in this article named the IDF as the only responsible party, even though sources vary on who is responsible. Some say the IDF, some say Hamas, and some say both. Adding it to a list of massacres, and therefore dubbing it a massacre, is taking sides with those who hold this view and disregarding the opposing position. As for what I said about Hamas statistics, I remembered the entry as giving the death toll as 1,417, which is the number Hamas gave, but I looked through the article's history and found one of the edits also gave the 1,166 figure. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 23:12, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Im sorry, Im not talking about any past entry. I am talking about a new one. But first I want to determine what exactly is required for something to be listed here as a "massacre". What is the criteria being used to determine this? nableezy - 23:36, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That the majority of sources agree that it was a massacre. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 23:48, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Which sources? nableezy - 03:43, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
News reports, governments around the world, nonprofit organizations, to name a few. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 04:30, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To be more specific, I do not mean every article or report that was ever released by the sources. I mean the sources which have called what happened a massacre on at least one occasion. For example, you pointed out an article in the Guardian that did not use the word "massacre" to describe the Itamar attack, but the Guardian has released other reports that do use that term. See Sherwood, Harriet (14 March 2011). "Israelis and Palestinians in shock after Fogel family massacre". The Guardian. London. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 04:58, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Topic?

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This article seems like a truncated version of List of massacres in Israel. --Mor2 (talk) 07:32, 23 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

French Hill

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The 2002 French Hill suicide bombing article does not mention anywhere that it is called a massacre. If this can't be sourced, we should remove this entry from the list, imho. Debresser (talk) 09:50, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion party

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Some content has been deleted. Here is my respond to this deletion.

First point:

  • (not sourced and not true ; eg the Kfar Qassem massacre of civilians by the Israeli army is commemorated each year by officials)

Where do you see Kfar Qassem massacre in the text

  • (sources are good enough ; the number of victims is not always known with precision)

The reason was = on the [UN] report: undetermined

McDowall, David (1992). Palestine and Israel: The Uprising and Beyond. University of California Press. p. 204. ISBN 0520076532.</ref>[better source needed]<

The reason was = Undetermined number

--... Point by point ... (talk) 21:34, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean "undetermined"? That there is no number at all, or that there is only a range (like 50-60, etc.)? Debresser (talk) 21:39, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a range?

--... Point by point ... (talk) 21:43, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am asking you... Debresser (talk) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

By "undetermined" I mean "undetermined".

Quotation of the UN report "The exact number of dead and wounded is not known, but the Director has received from sources he considers trustworthy lists of names of persons allegedly killed on 3 November, numbering 275 individuals, of whom 140 were refugees and 135 local residents of Khan Yunis." --... Point by point ... (talk) 22:24, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If that is what the source says, then why would you oppose saying "~275"? I would think that is reasonable.

Debresser (talk) 07:19, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You did not read it properly.

(1 the declaration)The exact number of dead and wounded is not known( end of the first part of the sentance) (2)then the politcal agenda of the UN report follows with a but, the Director has received from a mysterious source something really bad. --... Point by point ... (talk) 08:02, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If those sources are enough for the UN, then they should be good enough for Wikipedia. Perhaps we could add "reportedly ~275"? Debresser (talk) 12:23, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The conclusion of the UN report is: The exact number of dead and wounded is not known.

What is the death toll then? The exact number of dead and wounded is not known.

Conclusion: the Morris estimate is 200~ . Morris has distorted the UN report. --... Point by point ... (talk) 14:54, 27 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Debresser. We could write "~275" or "275 (estimation at the time)". Pluto2012 (talk) 05:58, 28 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Massacres prior to 1994

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In 2018, Greyshark09 changed the scope of this list to only include massacres committed since 1994. There was no discussion about that and it seems intuitively wrong to me. This list is clearly meant to be a "mirror" article to List of massacres in Israel which lists massacres in Israel from the end of the 1948 war and on-wards. I will therefore restore the content that was removed. Possibly, the article should be renamed if there is a consensus against referring to the West Bank and Gaza as "the Palestinian territories" before 1994.ImTheIP (talk) 12:54, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article is named "List of massacres in the Palestinian territories", with Palestinian territories officially utilized in geopolitical context generally between 1998 to 2013 to refer to areas A,B,C of the West Bank and Gaza Strip with partial or full Palestinian Authority control. This is understood to be extended backwards to 1994 - the establishment date of the Palestinian Authority, but is very much problematic to be extended back prior to that date due to both limited use of the term and lack of any Palestinian self-control in territorial sense with the limited exception of All-Palestine (which is not generally referred as Palestinian territory).GreyShark (dibra) 16:13, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Then the name of the article should be changed to "List of massacres in the West Bank and Gaza Strip." The article was meant for massacres following the cessation of the 1948 war in the region bounded by Mandatory Palestine and outside the Green Line. ImTheIP (talk) 16:43, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is circular reasoning, you shouldn't fit the article name to content, especially when you want to change the content. If you consider rename, you are welcome to propose, but note the possible ambiguity of West Bank and Gaza Strip - this is not a generally accepted name for articles.GreyShark (dibra) 17:04, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, it isn't circular reasoning. The article included massacres for the years 1948 to 1967 at least since 2012 to 2018. So I conclude that the intention is that the article should be a "mirror" to the article List of massacres in Israel. In 2018, you changed the scope of the article (without discussing it first I might add) to only include massacres from 1994 and onwards, making the article quite brief since only two massacres have taken place in the OPTs since. I have no objection to renaming the article but I strongly object to deleting most of the content from the article. ImTheIP (talk) 17:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Title

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Shouldn't the title be "occupied Palestinian territories"? The list appears to only include events from after the occupation of the territories my Israel. LK (talk) 07:58, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge of List of massacres in Palestine into List of massacres in the Palestinian territories

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
To switch List of massacres in Palestine to a list of lists, rather than to merge. Klbrain (talk) 12:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge List of massacres in Palestine into List of massacres in the Palestinian territories. A list without anything inside it is not a list. There is also a problem with the scope. Is this referring to massacres in the State of Palestine that would make it a synonymous to List of massacres in the West Bank (a highly unnecessary article as it would really just be List of massacres in the Palestinian territories minus Gaza)? If the scope is meant to refer to the whole historic Region of Palestine then that would prove an issue with the multiple articles s such as List of massacres in Israel, List of massacres in Roman Judea, List of massacres in Ottoman Syria, Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine war, List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine, et cetera. (The number of these articles is also concerning, but another matter altogether.) This list may once have served a purpose in 2012 when it was created, but at this point a list without anything in it should simply be merged into another article that already holds an easier scope. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 19:16, 10 April 2022 (UTC) Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 19:16, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not too familiar with the topic (summoned by article alerts), but would it be reasonable to either make this into a proper DAB, or into a list of lists? Ljleppan (talk) 07:36, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The list of lists idea is a good one. Perhaps the scope could be defined in the lede with something like "in Palestine, broadly defined, including but not limited to the State of Palestine". Klbrain (talk) 11:30, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Removed Number of Massacres

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I had previously edited the page to create a more symmetrical information availability of extreme violence committed in Palestinian territories. The content on the Palestinian side of the wikipedia page however keeps being removed, even though it makes no mention of the 2023 violence (which does not yet have any official reports from United Nations, Amnesty International, and Academics). The additions to the list that I have previously added were in fact named as "massacres" against the civilian population by different organizations and by academic scholars (some sources below).

According to the user who deleted the information, the massacres (term used in various sources) were not massacres. According to various sources, massacre is an indiscriminate, violent -or, in large numbers- killing of people. It is also defined in CollinsDictionary as "the unnecessary, indiscriminate killing of a large number of human beings or animals, as in barbarous warfare or persecution or for revenge or plunder" and in Cambridge dictionary as "the killing of a large number of people, esp. people who are not involved in any fighting or have no way of defending themselves".

I thus re-propose the addition of information that was removed:


|Qibya Massacre


|October, 1953


|Qibya, West Bank


|Israeli soldiers


|69


|In October 1953, Israeli army commandos massacred more than sixty Palestinian villagers at Qibya, a West Bank village.[1]


|Operation 'Cast Lead'


|27 December 2008 - 18 January 2009


|Gaza


|Israeli Forces


|1404


|Estimated 1391 Palestinians killed, 759 to be civillians, 344 children, 110 women. 13 Israelis killed, out of which 10 are soldiers.[2] Israel also admits using 'White Phosphorus' during their military offensive.[3]


|Operation 'Protective Edge'


|July 8, 2014 - August 27, 2014


|Gaza


|Israeli Forces


|2274[4]


|Operation Protective Edge saw more than 1600 civilian Palestinian deaths (including more than 500 children) and more than 10,000 people injured.[5] On the Israeli side, 6 civilian deaths (including 1 child). Operation Protective Edge started under the belief that Hamas kidnapped and killed 3 Israeli teens, but it was never confirmed and Israeli officials speculated that it could have been done by a third party.[6]


|-


|Duma Arson Attack


|July 2015


|Duma


|Israeli Settlers


|3


|The aggressors entered the family home and burnt to death an 18-month-old toddler. His parents died from burn wounds within weeks.[7]


|}


More references and sources:

https://www.mofa.gov.qa/en/all-mofa-news/details/2018/05/17/qatar-massacres-committed-against-palestinians-disgrace-to-humanity; Legitimation of massacres in Israeli school history books Nurit Peled-Elhanan, Discourse & Society, Vol. 21, No. 4 (July 2010), pp. 377-404 (28 pages; Voices against Erasure, Loss, and Dehumanization: The Year in Palestine Adam Yaghi, Biography, Vol. 42, No. 1 (2019), pp. 103-110; How to Read a Massacre in Palestine - كيف نقرأ المجزرة في فلسطين؟: Indigenous History as a Methodology of Liberation, Rana Barakat, AlMuntaqa, Vol. 5, No. 2 (September/October 2022), pp. 26-44; https://www.palquest.org/en/highlight/14334/kafr-qasim-1956; Politicide in Gaza: How Israel's Far Right Won the War Max Blumenthal, Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 44, No. 1, SPECIAL ISSUE: OPERATION PROTECTIVE EDGE (Autumn 2014), pp. 14-28; https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/MDE15/015/2009/en/; https://www.france24.com/en/20090802-israel-acknowledges-use-white-phosphorus-shells-gaza-civilians; https://www.haaretz.com/1.5129727; https://i.redd.it/4uer2l1nwbb61.jpg; https://www.amnesty.org.uk/gaza-operation-protective-edge; https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/31/death-18-month-old-in-arson-attack-heightens-tensions-west-bank-israel; https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-10-13/ty-article-magazine/.premium/generals-confession-links-massacre-to-israels-secret-plan-to-expel-arabs/0000017f-e653-d97e-a37f-f777910f0000; ReliquiesW (talk) 14:39, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ReliquiesW (talk) 15:13, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Rossinow, Doug (March 2018). ""The Edge of the Abyss": The Origins of the Israel Lobby, 1949–1954". Modern American History. 1 (1): 23–43. doi:10.1017/mah.2017.17. ISSN 2515-0456.
  2. ^ "Israel/Gaza: Operation "Cast Lead": 22 days of death and destruction". Amnesty International. Retrieved 2023-10-13.
  3. ^ "Forensic Architecture". forensic-architecture.org. Retrieved 2023-10-13.
  4. ^ "Gaza crisis: Toll of operations in Gaza". BBC News. 2014-07-25. Retrieved 2023-10-13.
  5. ^ "Gaza: Operation Protective Edge". www.amnesty.org.uk. Retrieved 2023-10-13.
  6. ^ Zavadski, Katie (2014-07-25). "It Turns Out Hamas May Not Have Kidnapped and Killed the 3 Israeli Teens After All [Updated]". Intelligencer. Retrieved 2023-10-13.
  7. ^ Shuttleworth, Kate (2015-07-31). "Death of 18-month-old in arson attack heightens tensions in West Bank". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2023-10-13.
 Not done: Desired edits which are actively contested are ineligible for the edit request process. You'll need to converse with the relevant editor on this talk page and come to a resolution. Seek dispute resolution if necessary (ensure to read the procedures on how to use them). —Sirdog (talk) 07:39, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Addition of 29th of February 2024 Massacre

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I am requesting addition by an extended confirmed or admin user of the 29th of February 2024 Massacre, also called the Flour Massacre, that occurred southwest of Gaza City against over 100 Palestinians seeking food aid.

[1][2][3] Aenet (talk) 13:25, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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