Talk:List of massacres during the Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922)

Number of deaths before and during the Liberation of İzmir

I could not find a reliable figure for the number of deaths as a result of the massacres before and during the Liberation of İzmir, although Norman clearly speaks of them. Anybody who has a figure is welcome edit the current quote.--Cfsenel (talk) 06:05, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua's reverts

User:Alexikoua, you are abusing the revert function. Please use discretion while reverting, you cannot revert all the changes just because you did not like one of them, especially when I made it easier by making different changes at different times. Could you tell me why you reverted İzmit back to Izmit, when İzmit is the title used in Wikipedia? Or why you changed "Salihli massacre" to Salihli, when Salihli obviously obviously is not the name of a massacre, but a place?--Cfsenel (talk) 06:50, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

When it comes to Great Fire of Smyrna, the source used states that the perpetrators are unknown, it does not say "Turkish army and paramilitaries", nor does the article in Wikipedia. So I corrected it accordingly. Then it creates an unreasonable situation. Calling such a fire massacre is problematic enough, but when the perpetrators are unknown it is even peculiar. I was going to remove it, but the given source mentions actual massacres, although does not give a number, so I added that. Which part of that do you object to?--Cfsenel (talk) 06:55, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

The use of modern Turkish place names for early 20th period isn't appropriate, since correspondent historical bibliography prefers the historical names (Smyrna instead of Izmir etc.). Moreover, what's the meaning with adding the word "massacre" in every event? This is a list of massacres as the title claims, thus there is no need to mention it in every single line.

Another disruptive edit occurred in the Smyrna massacre of 1922 (not the fire, as wrongly stated, but the massacre itself): here the massacre became a "liberation", while the Turkish army appears not to have participated in the atrocities. Not to mention that the victims are not Greeks any more.Alexikoua (talk) 07:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Smyrna and İzmir are different different spellings of the same word, it is not like Constantinople and İstanbul, where the name was actually officially changed. On Wikipedia Smyrna refers to the ancient city, and İzmir refers to the modern city (1920s İzmir is the modern İzmir). In any case, it is not an important issue, but regardless of how the name appears here, it should direct users to İzmir, Smyrna is the wrong article, it talks about the ancient city.

"what's the meaning with adding the word "massacre" in every event?" I really don't see your point. For example, should Menemen massacre be listed as just Menemen, and the word massacre is redundant? Menemen is the name of the town, Menemen massacre is the name of the massacre. Salihli is the name of a town, there is no massacre known as "Salihli". Why are you assuming this change has some other meaning?

"not the fire, as wrongly stated, but the massacre itself" that is exactly my point. We shouldn't list the fire here (as it currently does), but actual killing of Armenians (and Greeks, given a source). Have you looked at the source? I didn't arbitrarily changed the line. The source states that it is unclear who started the fire. The source states that Armenian civilians were massacred, without giving numbers. I would imagine Greeks are massacred, I would be glad if you could find a source which also gives the numbers of Armenians and Greeks massacred, so we can add the numbers as well.

And I didn't change massacre into liberation, I changed fire to "massacres before and during the liberation of İzmir". Liberation of İzmir is the name of the event on Wikipedia. I can see how it can be offensive in this context. The name can appear differently here, perhaps "Turkish recapture" or something, while still linking to Liberation of İzmir.--Cfsenel (talk) 07:21, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I have reinstated the edits considering your concerns. Please don't revert to the previous form, it was wrong. If you care to look at the given source, you will see that it doesn't support the claim that Turks started the fire to massacre Armenians and Greeks, as it was stated. It mentions massacres of Armenians by Turkish gangs, but makes no mention of massacred Greeks. As I said, I would be very glad if a source mentioning massacred Greeks, and perhaps also including numbers, is added.--Cfsenel (talk) 07:39, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I have just found the sentence "Every morning scores of newly dead bodies appeared on the streets and in the doorways of the Armenian and Greek quarters of the city" in Norman. So we have a source for the massacre of Greeks. Still, we need figures more precise than "scores of" so we can add it to the numbers.--Cfsenel (talk) 07:43, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Although there appears some incosistency with the use of modern Turkish names, such as the Izmir case, I believe it's not big deal. Perhaps in the Izmir massacre case some additional reference and minor corrections will be necessary.Alexikoua (talk) 21:05, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua, I don't object to Great Fire of Smyrna being mentioned in the notes column, since they are concurrent and victims are the same; but it cannot be listed as a massacre when we do not have sufficient evidence it was a deliberate massacre. True, it looks suspicious to me that mostly Armenians and Greeks suffered, but then again, it also looks suspicious that mostly Jews and Turks suffered in the Great Thessaloniki Fire of 1917, but it is not enough to include it in List of massacres in Greece. One can find dozens of sources that claim Turks started the fire, which seems plausible to me; but dozens of other accounts, equally respectable, claim that Armenians or Greeks started the fire.

Also, the reason why I wrote "massacres before and during" is that Norman states that gangs started roaming Armenian quarters immediately after Greek troops left the city, 3 September, before Turkish troops entered the city on 9 September. (Norman also states that Turkish troops didn't do much to prevent it after they entered the city, but they showed "greater restraint than expected" and didn't join for the most part, although other sources may dispute this.) That is why I changed the start date to 3 September and think the word "before" is necessary.--Cfsenel (talk) 03:55, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

In general I'm not claiming that the fire was started by a specific party, there is a debate on this, but the side that committed the massacres before and during this event is clear from the references. I agree with you that the word "before" should be added, since the massacres started before the fire (for example Metropolitan Chrysostomos was lynched before the fire). About the exact date that this started, I'm afraid I need to check additional bibliography. Alexikoua (talk) 13:26, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I am glad you agree. There are accounts which claims the fire was started deliberately by Turks, so as I said, we should not remove it completely, it should be mentioned in the notes column. I am revising it accordingly. As to the date, Norman does say that massacres started on 3 September; if you have a source which states they started earlier, please do change the date (but that would be before the Greek troops left the city, so I guess it would be unlikely, at least not by Turks against Greeks).--Cfsenel (talk) 23:31, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Also, the reason why I wrote 'massacres' is, it is not a singular massacre, say, like "Turgutlu massacre", but appears to consists of different massacres by seemingly independent groups spread over time, more like "Massacres in İznik–İzmit region". I am readding the 's'. Would you have any objections to that wording?--Cfsenel (talk) 23:37, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I fail to see what you claim about Norman, in fact he states that "Once the Greek authorities left with the army, the town became open territory for robbers, bandits, and brigands of all kinds. Turkish gangs roamed the Armenian quarter, breaking into homes, robbing and killing seemingly at will". The Greek administration left the city on Sept. 8 10:00am [On september 8th, at ten o' clock in the morning, the Greek administration cease to exist in Smyrna. Thus everything started from Sep. 8 morning.Alexikoua (talk) 09:10, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

There is also an issue with the minimum number of the victims, Norman claims that 2,000-5,000 died as a direct result of the fire, this excludes the ones died as part of the massacre(s) but unrelated to the fire (for example the lynching of Chrysostomos).Alexikoua (talk) 09:15, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua, on page 47-48, it states "Between the time last units of the Greek army departed Smyrna on September 3, 1922, and the first Turkish cavalry forces arrived on September 9, the city was in a state of panic. Tens of thousands of refugees crowded into public buildings, schools, churches, granaries, and warehouses. Foreign missions overflowed with their own nationals and naturalized citizens. Rumors that the Greek army would burn the city before leaving, as they had burned so much else in western Anatolia, caused throngs of refugees to crowd onto the long quay of the port, hiring boats to leave if they were able but mostly camping out at a safe distance from the buildings along the shore. Once the Greek authorities left with the army, the town became open territory for robbers, bandits and brigands of all kinds. Turkish gangs roamed the Armenian quarter, breaking into homes, robbing and killing seemingly at will." So he says Greek army completely left Smyrna on September 3, and that "the Greek authorities left with the army", which seems to imply that they also left on September 3. And he says that gangs began to roam immediately after they left, hence the date Sep 3 as the start of massacres. Are you saying he made a factual mistake about the dates? Or do I misunderstand what he is saying? And yes, we need a source mentioning the number of people massacred excluding the fire, unfortunately Norman doesn't give any information about that. Sources about the fire are abundant, but I have not came across a source documenting the number of people directly massacred. The closest thing we have is "Every morning scores of newly dead bodies appeared on the streets" as a result of massacres, but this extremely ambiguous. Hopefully someone will find a better source about this.--Cfsenel (talk) 19:09, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Apart from the above reference [[1]], which clearly points that the Greek authorities left the city at Sep. 8 morning, it appears that this is confirmed by the majority of the bibliography, "On 8 September 1922,the Greek army withdrew from Izmir,leaving an eerie silence the next morning as the city's... Terror spread ...., and " On 8 September, all archives were cleared away and the higher officials and civil servants of the High Commissioner's Office departed as well", also In the morning of 8 September, the Greek High Civil 1922 Administrator, Stergiadis, made an official announcement that Greek jurisdiction over the area would cease to exist from ten (10) o'clock in the eveningOn 8 September 1922 the evacuation of Smyrna began; the following evening the Turks entered the city. I believe this leaves no doubt about the precise time the Greek administration left the city.

About the number of the victims, I agree that the present form is the best we can have.Alexikoua (talk) 21:17, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

OK, Norman Naimark got it wrong then. (I also remembered that Greek evacuation was very soon before Turkish arrival, I was surprised to see the date September 3 in the source, but assumed it was correct.) September 8 it is. Thank you.--Cfsenel (talk) 22:29, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Salihli

[[2]] The specific part relies exclusively on suppposed primary reports, however even those lack full citation. Unless there is no wp:SECONDARY RS to support the correspodent claim this needs to go. Primary reports fall unto wp:PRIMARY. Alexikoua (talk) 06:58, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Maybe we can keep Salihli with death section being "unknown". Justin McCarty's claims in his book "Death and Exile_ The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821–1922" (1995, The Darwin Press, Inc.) are as follows => p.275: "Turkish civilians, especially "notables" are being collected in various towns and villages, throughout the occupied country behind Smyrna, and marched off as "prisoners of war. / Bands of these prisoners pass through Smyrna almost daily, and disappear.They are supposed to be deported to Greece, but nobody hears from them, and the corpses of some of them have been found. / These deportations have taken place at: Kasaba, Manissa, Nif, Alashehir,Salihli, Ushag, Kula, Mamara [sic], Akhissar, Tira, Odermish [sic], Barindir [sic], Turbali, Aidin." p.285 (referencing to Consul Park's report): "1. The destruction of the interior cities visited by our party was carried out by Greeks. 2. The percentages of buildings destroyed in each of the last four cities referred to were Magnesia 90 percent Cassaba 90 percent Alashehr 70 percent Salihli 65 percent" And in page 296, he states that of 2,200 buildings in Salihli, 2000 were destroyed. It is extremely unlikely that no one died during the deportation of Turkish "notables" and/or destruction of Salihli by the Greek army. I hope this is enough evidence to keep Salihli in the list. Megalomanda138 (talk) 14:43, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Finally found a full online version of the referenced Atlantic Monthly, Vol.132 (1923): https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015030109634&view=1up&seq=841Megalomanda138 (talk) 10:56, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Still fails to meet SECONDARY, comtemporary newspapers should be used with high precausion per wp:PRIMARY Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so.. The events occured nearly a century and it's very weird that this is non-existent in shcolarship.Alexikoua (talk) 11:24, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

I believe Justin McCarty's book serves as a good enough secondary source. Destruction of the city, PoW marches etc. It is highly unlikely that no one died in such an event. As to the primary source, there are no interpretations. It clearly states "76 people were known to have burned to death", which means the number might be higher, justifying the addition of "at least". The statement is not an interpretation. Furthermore, there is ample evidence that Salihli is burned down by the Greek Army (at least two reports from the time and recent scholarly work). We have a source claiming that 76 people were known to be burned to death. If it pleases you, we can revise the death toll section as "unknown or at least 76".Megalomanda138 (talk) 12:46, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Turgutlu Massacre

James Loder Park, US Vice-Consul stated the following on the massacre: "The reliability of these statistics cannot be proven or disproven, and must be taken for what they are worth, but my own observation would indicate that they are approximately correct. We were told that Cassaba was a city of 40,000 souls, 3,000 of whom were non-Moslems. Of these 37,000 Turks only 6,000 could be accounted for among the living, while 1,000 Turks were known to have been shot or burned to death. Of the 2,000 buildings that constituted the city, only 200 remained standing. . . . Ample testimony was available to the effect that the city was systematically destroyed by Greek soldiers, assisted by a number of Greek and Armenian civilians. Kerosene and gasoline were freely used to make the destruction more certain, rapid, and complete."
Since according to statement only 6000 people could be accounted for for the living, this means that 31000 people were not accounted for in the living. From this 31000 people, 1000 were known to be killed. This means that the death toll is somewhere between 1000 and 31000. I think, to better reflect the report, the death section of the list for this massacre should be changed either to "at least 1000" or "1000 to 31000".
Secondly, since according to Park's report, ample evidence suggests that the city was destroyed by "the Greek army assisted by Greek and Armenian civilians", I think "responsible party" section may also be edited as such. But I am not quite sure for this last one.Megalomanda138 (talk) 11:58, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Ataturk and kemalist ataturkist nationalists who killed greeks in Smyrna and other cities

Ataturk and his kemalist nationalists made most of the massacres during 1919-1935 years. Even Cherchill says that Ataturk nazi dictator killed many greek people of Smyrna Анененерки (talk) 01:14, 28 January 2023 (UTC)