Talk:List of jazz tunes

Criteria for List

Interesting with a list of jazz pieces, but what should be the criteria for being on the list? It would, of course, be meaningless to have a list of all jazz pieces ever made. Should it be groundbreaking pieces? The best pieces?

Pharaohmø 14:04, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

May I suggest fifty citations that document separate revival performances as a filter for 'widely played'? Tradimus (talk) 10:45, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Linking

It would, of course, be meaningless to have a list of all jazz pieces ever made. Should it be groundbreaking pieces? The best pieces?

I agree, only the peices that were important to the history of jazz or popular jazz songs should be added. There is alsoanother problem: The links in this article tend to lead to different articles with the same name or disambugations. The links should always end at the exact article.

Baltimore Oriole is a good example of this bad linking. It goes to an album by George Harrison. His cover is significant, but not necessarily the most important. If it has to go to a generic page, it should go to something about Hoagy Carmichael...JECompton (talk) 16:22, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Items Removed

I deleted "Epitaph" from the Mingus sections. It's a 90 minute suite, and certainly not a jazz standard. I also deleted the Bob Graettinger section. Did anyone really perform his songs besides Stan Kenton? Apple Christmas 16:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Gershwin, Kern, Rodgers & Hart, etc.?

I think the idea behind this page is fundamentally flawed. Listing standards by "jazz" composers would leave out all the Tin Pan Alley guys who composed many of (most of?) the real jazz standards. I also think that without linking each song to a page about that song, this whole list will be meaningless. It would just be a list of song titles, and what good would that do anyone? Perhaps the article should be deleted? Apple Christmas 16:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem about Tin Pan Alley standards was fixed when List of mainstream jazz standards was merged here. Jafeluv (talk) 12:51, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The Purpose

A list of jazz titles is not meaningless, especially if it is categorized correctly. The list is also useful to people like me who research meaningless bits of data in order to write stories, or two people wishing to look at a reference list of musicians alongside the songs they wrote. The way I see it, however, is that the list should be organized by way of person or person(s) most responsible for the creation of the song. In this case, the Tin Pan Alley boys would have their own section IF it wasn't just one of them for creating the song.DaedalusMachina 17:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I like this list

I found it very useful as I'm not really sure where to find various Jazz artists anyplace else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.38.7.106 (talk) 00:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Related list that could be created for Wikipedia: Jazz tunes of disputed authorship and/or known under multiple titles

Whether through sloppiness on the part of album annotators, bad communication from the artist, or outright deception, there is a substantial list of tunes where a writer is either omitted from the publishing credits or substituted altogether. For example:

Rue Chaptal/Royal Roost/Tenor Madness (as by Fats Navarro, Charlie Parker, Sonny Rollins, and many others), Steeplechase/Easy Swing (as by Charlie Parker, Wardell Gray), Eronel (a tune by Idrees Sulieman and Argonne Thornton a.k.a. Sadik Hakim with a small contribution from Thelonious Monk that is usually attributed soley to Monk), Tuxedo Junction/Artillerie Lourde (Erskine Hawkins tune "borrowed" by Django Reinhardt during a period when Nazi occupiers suppressed American swing tunes), St. Thomas (a traditional melody usually attributed to Sonny Rollins), Milestones, Donna Lee, Rifftide, Crazeology, Bouncing with Bud/Bebop in Pastel, Fool's Fancy/Wail, Four and Tune Up.

I guess the page could include sections on 1.) traditional tunes attributed to Jazz musicians (i.e. "St. Thomas") 2.) Jazz tunes of undisputed authorship known under multiple titles (i.e. "Sid's Delight/Tadd's Delight") 3.) Jazz Tunes known under two different titles, each attributed to different writers (i.e. "Steeplechase / Easy Swing" or "Royal Roost / Tenor Madness") 4.) Jazz tunes where all writers are not commonly acknowledged (i.e. "Eronel", or half the famous pieces by Duke Ellington) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.136.166.246 (talk) 20:10, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

References

A list of references to cite and expand the list:

• Jazz Standards (February 1, 1998). Hal Leonard Corporation. ISBN 0793588723
• The Real Book (September 1, 2004). Hal Leonard Corporation. ISBN 0634060384 (Vols. 1-3)
• Aebersold, Jamey. Jamey Aebersold Play-A-Along Series. Vols. 1-120
• The New Real Book. Vols. 1-3. Sher Music Company.
• The Standards Real Book. Sher Music Company. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dissolve (talk • contribs) 18:30, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merger (2009)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was merge. -- Jafeluv (talk) 12:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

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The different lists of jazz standards (List of jazz standards and lists of Dixieland, bebop, bossa nova, Latin and funk, mainstream, modal and post-bop and swing standards) should be merged into one. The division is totally arbitrary. Who decides what's "mainstream"? Why are Latin and funk tunes in the same list? Besides, there are duplicate entries in the lists. Obviously there's also the problem about the lists being completely unreferenced.

I have one proposal of the merged list in my sandbox - I've taken the songs from each list and tried to find sources for the ones I could. Also, I added the top 100 from jazzstandards.com and all the songs from Category:Jazz standards that I could find sources for. Comments are welcome on the structure of the list, as well as on the sourcing, ordering etc.

I'm not sure what the criteria for inclusion should be, however. One way would be to include only songs that have been performed (recorded?) by more than, say, 50 different jazz artists. There's, however, a problem with making the list of performers verifiable, especially if a song has no article of its own. Another way would be to require a certain number of major fake/real books that include the song.

Anyway, any comments are welcome on the merger and on the proposed list! Jafeluv (talk) 06:36, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Briefly: I agree with the merger suggestion, and your sandboxed version is a very solid proposal. I have no advice for inclusion criteria.

My only related suggestion, would be to try to retain some of the information in the sub-list-articles, by copying into their associated genre articles. E.g. could part or all of the List of swing jazz standards be moved to the Swing music article? That would obviously need its own sourcing, and the "mainstream" list doesn't belong anywhere, but it would be nice to keep some of the "by-genre" info available. (Just thinking outloud...) -- Quiddity (talk) 20:09, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Support merge per WP:MERGE. I thought that the articles would benefit from merging as well the last time I looked at the page. As far as what to include, Wiki is not paper, as long as entries are verifiable in a reliable secondary source, in my opinion there really is no limit to how many can be included. The repertoire of Jazz standards change over time: the list from a 1950s fake book is very different from a list a 2000s Real Book. I don't see any reason why the article couldn't include them all and possibly trace the historic changes over time.

How to organize is tricky. Most collections of standards are organized by composition title, sometimes with additional indexes by author. The New Real Book series has an index for genre. I think the most useful list would be sortable by either/or title, author, genre and year, and not necessarily just by year. The broader question is probably which method of organization is most encyclopaedic? dissolve^talk 21:14, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Support the merge per nom. Organization might be good to do by era, and a table format would be a lot more useful than the current treed-bullet format. Shadowjams (talk) 09:38, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've left a note at each of the genre talkpages (Talk:Bebop, Talk:Bossa nova, Talk:Modal jazz, Talk:Jazz-funk, Talk:Latin Jazz, Talk:Swing music, Talk:Dixieland) to let them know. (Feel free to tweak my notes, if I missed any important details.)

Thanks again for the great improvement here Jafeluv :) -- Quiddity (talk) 19:06, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I Remember Clifford 1937??? More like 1957, right?

I'm pretty sure Clifford Brown was still alive in 1937 and that this song was written and published much later than the date listed (1937). Can someone please help me fix this? I believe "I Remember Clifford" should be moved to the 1950's section with 1957 as the correct year that Benny Golson composed the song. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gadjoproject (talk • contribs) 17:21, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Good catch. The tune is copyright 1957 (renewed in 1985). I moved it to reflect this. dissolve^talk 18:55, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

criteria?

This article is a list without criteria or citations? What makes something a JAZZ standard? I'd imagine one useful form of criteria would be if the song appeared in more than one of the commonly used Fake Books. At least that way, there is some way to support a claim. Kingturtle = (talk) 16:59, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Issues about titles

Songs with multiple titles

An example, these titles are all the same song:

• Aunt Hagar's Blues
• Aunt Hagar's Children
• Aunt Hagar's Children's Blues

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Songs with unusual spellings

• Ev'ry Time We Say Goodbye

---

Songs with "gender issues" - by that I mean he/she and man/woman/girl.

I couldn't find a good he/she example.

• The Man I Love

If it's sung by a man it's "The Girl I Love"

---

Note: people often search lists with ctrl-f so if it were up to me I'd make the list like this:

"The common title" ["Changed gender (etc?) title"]

Example

• The Man I Love [The Girl I Love]

"The common title" ["Common (modern) spelling"]

• Ev'ry Time We Say Goodbye [Every Time We Say Goodbye]

How do other Wikipedia list pages deal with these problems? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AllThatJazz2012 (talk • contribs) 16:25, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Two and one-half years later, my ad hoc solution is to italicize alternative titles (i.e. ones that are significantly different from the title of the Wikipedia article). Ardric47 (talk) 16:40, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I italicized all of the duplicate songs that I noticed, and clicked through all of the titles to at least make sure that they had reasonable targets. Some of the links are to albums when they should be to songs, and some could still point to other songs (or albums) that aren't "jazz standards," but have coincidental titles. Ardric47 (talk) 20:19, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Good job. Links to albums are OK, but ideally they should be red linked as they're standards in their own right and should have articles. Yes, a system like The Man I Love [The Girl I Love] would be good with alternative names. I was actually considered turning the list into a table with a year/composer/original key and summary type of thing but haven't the energy at the moment.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:33, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

How about a table? Or is the list far, far too big? I've never seen such a gigantic table. Are there any? It's a huge change to the page. If I (or whoever) wanted to add a table - what's the procedure? Do I start a new section on the talk page or...? How can I learn how to make tables? Googling wikipedia and table is going to be no fun at all.♦ AllThatJazz2012 (talk) 11:07, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Alright, Okay, You Win is also listed as Alright, OK, You Win. 76.71.7.136 (talk) 15:11, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

References / External link idea

I think secondhandsongs.com should be added to "References" or "External links".

Why?

It's a site for covers - example: Easy Living. The list can be sorted by "performer" or "release date".

I didn't make the change since I think some people might consider secondhandsongs.com to be "controversial" because the site isn't dedicated to jazz.

Also, I don't know which place is best for the link: "References" or "External links".

If you like the idea - you can add it yourself. If I don't get a response in the next couple weeks - I'm going to go ahead and add it myself.

AllThatJazz2012 (talk) 14:45, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Agreed it would be useful, just entered in A Night in Tunisia at random and it came up with a big comprehensive list of covers. You would need to add an explanation in brackets though explaining "Enter in a jazz standard at secondhandsongs.com) for it to be relevant and not seem like a spam link though. I've added it now, most useful, thanks for that.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:59, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

List dispute. Tab removed

@User:Dr Blofeld. The list dispute tab was added for genuine reasons as there doesn't appear to be one. As this is your article could you kindly explain the list criteria (as per previous requests in the talk section). There is a high number of red-links. Ajf773 (talk) 17:39, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

There is a high number of red links because we don't yet have a comprehensive coverage of standards. They will be started in due course. The list has been compiled from a combination of jazz standard books and seeing multiple covers of the song in the jazz repertoire. There are many "minor standards" listed, but it's approaching very comprehensive and it's very useful to jazz musicians! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:07, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

About "Template talk:Jazz-composition-stub"

It's entirely empty: Template talk:Jazz-composition-stub. Wouldn't it be good to have the song stubs listed there?

I know basically nothing about stubs so if this is a stupid suggestion - please ignore it!

AllThatJazz2012 (talk) 21:31, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

non-standards in 'D' section

I'm not finding Do'in the Pig (or other variations on the name like Doing the Pig) on Spotify, or even searching around the web. I found some backing track, but nothing to suggest this is a widely known or performed jazz standard by any set of criteria. Would some jazz aficionado confirm this and remove it from the 'D' section if so? JECompton (talk) 15:45, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm mostly seeing Dolores coming up as many jazz covers or a popular jazz cover by eminent performers.

I'm not seeing anything at all for The Dolphin. Almost seems like a randomly inserted title or a mistake for Dolphin Dance. JECompton (talk) 14:23, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Let It Be

Let It Be by The Beatles is certainly a standard. But a Jazz Standard? Okay that I remove it? KuifjeNL (talk) 21:26, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree. Canons of any sort are going to be controversial, but if 90% of people who listen to a range of jazz would call something a jazz standard without a moment's hesitation, it belongs. If not, probably not. I vote that you just remove it. JECompton (talk) 14:20, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Radically removed red links

Hi there. I removed all red links (with some exceptions) because the actual standards are getting swamped in it and no one gets anything out of it. What good does a title without any reference, it is just a name. At first there has to be an article on the composition, then, with background and a history, the song should be listed as a (proven) standard. Ted Gioia's "The Jazz Standards" comprises between 250 to 300 songs. The article on the "Real Book" doesn't tell a number, but how much will there be? Anyway, reading the story to it reveals a somewhat arbitrary selection. It hurts me too removing all the wonderful compositions by Wayne Shorter. They are admired, but how many of them are really often played and recorded by other musicians. This list should not be a list of individual beloved songs. There is more to it. MenkinAlRire 22:31, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Any info on E.S.P.?

When I clicked on E.S.P., it took me to the page about the Miles Davis Album, but there isn't any info there specific to the song, or for the various covers of it. I'd like to know more about it since it seems like an important standard, so someone please write up more on that page or on a new song page. Thanks if you can! JECompton (talk) 14:53, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Eternal Triangle link incorrect

The Eternal Triangle link goes to some band, not a page about the song. I don't know if the song page exists, but I wouldn't know enough to be able to add it. --JECompton (talk) 20:44, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Evergreen really a jazz standard?

The link to Evergreen is to the song composed by Barbara Streisand, but that song doesn't sound like jazz to me. I'm having trouble finding jazz covers of the song, either. It sounds more like easy listening, but not the kind I'd expect to hear on a jazz easy-listening station, even. Please, someone w/ more jazz knowledge remove this if you agree. --JECompton (talk) 17:50, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Redirect to Jazz standard?

This article currently tries (and poorly at that) to cover the work of five lists (List of 1930s jazz standards and etc.). Should this not be redirected to the parent page which even states in the lede "there is no definitive list of jazz standards"? That page suitably navigates the lists by decade. Why? I Ask (talk) 19:02, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Comment if there are concerns that there will no longer be an A–Z list, why not simply add standards to both Category:Jazz standards and Category:1910s jazz standards (or whatever the year)? Why? I Ask (talk) 19:06, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

No it doesn't try to cover what is in five lists. It is intended to be a comprehensive A-Z of jazz standards for convenience in its own right, the problem is that some editors are afraid of red links and removed them. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:06, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, the fact that list entries don't have to be in themselves notable is not obvious, unlike the fact that the definition of "jazz standard" appears completely ambiguous. The only criterion for entry on this list is that some or another editor has decided on their own that a song belongs on it. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 21:39, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Ideally entries on the list should have a reliable source describing it as a standard. There are a lot of minor standards though, which might not have sources that modern professional jazz musicians sometimes play (like some of Monk's, Coltrane's and Mingus's less well known tunes, or once had numerous jazz musicians playing the tune but it went out of style. You're more likely going to see Trane's Grand Central in a jazz club today than something like Fidgety Feet for instance.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:45, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

@Dr. Blofeld: I mean, won't every jazz standard also be assigned to a decade leading to unnecessary duplication? If something is on one list then not the other, then there's an issue. Why? I Ask (talk) 04:59, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

The problem is that "jazz standard" is poorly defined. I listen to a very broad range of covers and a lot on this list aren't even covered by the top jazz artists. "Standard" for me should mean tunes that most famous jazz musicians play regularly. No famous jazz musicians really play "Golden Lady", "Hong Kong Blues", "Kogun" or "Nostalgia in Times Square" etc regularly. They are more tunes that a known jazz artist may occasionally record or do live but not many do it. Perhaps we should move this to simply a "List of jazz tunes", ones which just have multiple covers or may be in the Real Books, many minor standards or tunes included too so we don't have to worry about it being defined as a "standard" and then leave it to the decade lists for the main jazz "standards".♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:54, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Making this list more comprehensive

Now we have removed "standard" from the title, this should resolve the valid disputes over inclusion criteria we had in the past... This could now become a much more comprehensive list of songs and compositions without worrying if it's really a jazz "standard".

German Wiki has quite a good list and mentions the original composer/writer and year. I think we could do that too. All I would say is avoid red linking entries which you don't think could ever have its own article... Before adding an entry, I suggest checking the secondhandsongs.com site and seeing how many covers are listed for it. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:26, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria. I think a minimum of five different covers featured on Secondhandsongs.com or/and album recordings or live jazz performances on YouTube for evidence that the tunes were or are still played, or/and being featured in any of the six volumes of the Real Books. Check on that site before adding a tune. Obviously we don't want a list of every original composition by every jazz artist, but this can certainly develop into a very comprehensive list of tunes now without worrying about if it's a standard. Most of the tunes I'm adding could have an article, but I'll avoid red linking until the article is blue linked.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:11, 2 March 2024 (UTC)