Talk:List of heads of state of Libya

Inaccuracy?

This list seems to contradict the list at http://gpco.gov.ly/online/history_gpc.php (translation via google). I can't read Arabic, so maybe I'm mistaken. I tried to verify Mifta al-Usta Umar by googling in Arabic and English, but couldn't come up with anything authoritative. Calliopejen1 (talk) 21:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Khadaffi hasn't been head of state since 1 March 1979 [1] Gerard von Hebel (talk) 00:07, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

These people were Head of State during the Gadaffi period:

Chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council
8 Sep 1969 - 1 Mar 1979 Muammar al-Qaddafi (s.a.)
Secretaries of the General People's Congress (nominal chiefs of state)
2 Mar 1977 - 1 Mar 1979 Muammar al-Qaddafi (s.a.)
1 Mar 1979 - 7 Jan 1981 Abdul Ati al-Obeidi (b. 1939)
7 Jan 1981 - 15 Feb 1984 Muhammad az-Zaruq Rajab (b. 1940)
15 Feb 1984 - 7 Oct 1990 Mifta al-Usta Umar (b. 1935)
7 Oct 1990 - 18 Nov 1992 Abdul Razzaq as-Sawsa
18 Nov 1992 - 3 Mar 2008 Zentani Muhammad az-Zentani
3 Mar 2008 - 5 Mar 2009 Muftah Muhammad Kaiba
5 Mar 2009 - 26 Jan 2010 Mubarak Abdallah al-Shamikh (b. 1950)
26 Jan 2010 - 23 Aug 2011 Muhammad Abul-Qasim al-Zwai

Taken from the before mentioned source. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 15:48, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't seem to be able to remove the boxes in my above message. Sorry about that. I copy / pasted from this [2] site, which I have always found very reliable, accurate and painstakingly up to date. These people know what they're talking about i.m.o. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 16:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Hebel, I completely agree with the source which you presented here. IMO, there's no doubt that those people mentioned above were heads of state of Libya during the Gaddafi era. By the way, I eliminated the boxes from your above message. And, there's one more source, beside the one which you mentioned, which put forth the same info as your source. This is it - [3], and I copy / pasted data from it here:

Chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council
1 Sep 1969 - 2 Mar 1979 Muammar al-Qaddafi (s.a.) Mil/Non-party
General Secretaries of the General People's Congress (nominal chiefs of state)
2 Mar 1977 - 2 Mar 1979 Muammar al-Qaddafi (s.a.) Non-party
2 Mar 1979 - 7 Jan 1981 Abdul Ati al-Obeidi (b. 1939) Non-party
7 Jan 1981 - 15 Feb 1984 Muhammad az-Zaruq Rajab (b. 1940) Non-party
15 Feb 1984 - 7 Oct 1990 Mifta al-Usta Umar (b. 1935) Non-party
7 Oct 1990 - 18 Nov 1992 Abdul Razzaq as-Sawsa Non-party
18 Nov 1992 - 3 Mar 2008 Zentani Muhammad az-Zentani (b. 1944) Non-party
3 Mar 2008 - 5 Mar 2009 Muftah Muhammad al-Sanusi Kaiba Non-party
5 Mar 2009 - 26 Jan 2010 Mubarak Abdallah al-Shamikh (b. 1950) Non-party
26 Jan 2010 - 23 Aug 2011 Muhammad Abul-Qasim al-Zwai (b. 1952) Non-party

I have great confidence in this source. It is reliable, accurate and up to date in the same way as your source (which I really trust too). I'm sure people who edit it know what they're talking about too. Cheers! --Sundostund (talk) 19:03, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you user:Sundostund for taking care of that. I do think the article will have to be adjusted. I am however unhappy about the format with pictures of people. I am pretty sure we can't get approved pictures of all these persons and I am not sure yet how to get all of them in to the existing format. That is not one of my talents. Perhaps the whole thing should be made a text list? Not nice too look at but at least accurate.... Gerard von Hebel (talk) 20:20, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I recognize the source you mentioned because I've seen it before. I think they share the same data. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 20:26, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I really can't agree to the format without pictures of people, nor to the just text list. I truly think lists looks awful when they are oversimplified and downgraded to the text-only version... We should definitely not remove places for pictures, because you never know when a pic will just pop out at the Commons (for instance, picture of Abdul Ati al-Obeidi was added to the Commons not so long ago). By the way, we already have almost all pictures of the effective heads of state, and so far three in the nominal heads of state section, so why to remove them? I'm pretty sure we can find pics of those people (or most of it) somewhere without copyright issues, but that isn't really my field. As I said, just wait and some of it will pop out at the Commons eventually. As for the sources, I also think they share the same (or mostly the same) data. --Sundostund (talk) 22:41, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Looking at our sources, it seems illogical to me that the Revolutionary Command Council was formed on 8 September 1969 (according to your source) instead on 1 September (according to my source), when Gaddafi staged a coup. I think the second version (which is current in the article) is correct. Gaddafi's rule began on 1 September, so he was the head of state since that date... Also, I doubt the RCC lasted until 1979 (according to both sources), knowing that Gaddafi proclaimed the Jamahiriya in 1977 and become the Secretary-General of the General People's Congress. I'm pretty sure the RCC was abolished in 1977, so the current version in the article is correct. This source seems to confirm both of my observations - [4]. --Sundostund (talk) 00:32, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes. I think you are right about that. The years in Gadaffi's two spells as head of state don't add up so to speak. He could have been Chairman of the RCC AND chairman of the People's congress at the same time however (between 1977 and 1979) but it does seem unlikely to me. Probably a typing error in the source. I do however think that while the coup against the King was the 1st of September 1969, the actual RCC may very well have been formed only on the 8th of that month. I vaguely remember that there was talk about retaining the monarchy in some form, the first few days but I can't remember where I've read that. I also agree with you about the format and the pictures. You are right about that. It's better to keep them. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 19:44, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Awesome, Hebel! I'm glad to hear that you agree with me. I'm definitely sure that Libya didn't have two separate offices of the head of state at the same time, between 1977 and 1979. Gaddafi was the Chairman of the RCC from 1969 until 1977, and then served as the first Secretary-General of the GPC from 1977 until 1979, when he formally stepped down. On both duties, he was the formal head of state. It must be a typing error in the source, that is the only logical explanation... I know that Gaddafi and his fellow officers indeed contemplated about the retaining the monarchy, in the person of the Crown Prince, but only for a few hours after the coup. Then, they decided to proclaim a republic with Gaddafi as the head of state, under the title Chairman of the RCC. It doesn't seem logic to me that they left the position of the head of state vacant from 1 to 8 September. Anyway, everyone agree that Gaddafi's rule started on 1 September 1969. --Sundostund (talk) 23:12, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Head of State vs. Head of Gov

This should be made clear in a lead paragraph. --Bejnar (talk) 18:53, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

According to the Declaration on the Establishment of the Authority of the People it appears that the Secretary-General of the GPC was the head of government with the Chairman of the GPC being the head of state. 166.249.197.22 (talk) 00:13, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Civil War/Gadaffi

As things stand, both the Gadaffi-government and the TNC are recognised as heads of state in Libya by different nations: Venezuela, for example, still recognises Gadaffi. Many sources ([5][6]) still call Gadaffi the leader of Libya. Until such a time as he has been killed/stepped down, or he is no longer described as the leader of Libya by states/sources, we should not be claiming that he is no longer the leader. --Pretty Green (talk) 08:17, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Contradictions

This article, the article on Muammar Gaddafi and the article on Mohamed Abu Al-Quasim al-Zwai contradict each other regarding end dates and abolitions of positions.

This article claims that both people left their office on 22 August 2011 with no mention of whether the positions were abolished or not.

The article on Muammar Gaddafi claims that Khaddafi is in office ("Incumbend" in infobox and the bottom of the page) but the infobox also states that the position has been abolished (so the infobox is currently contradicting itself).

The article on Mohamed Abu Al-Quasim al-Zwai also contradicts itself: he is claimed to be "in office", but the position is also listed as "abolished". Furthermore, the end date listed (23 August 2011) is different from the one in this article.

I'm not very informed on this subject, but I see that three articles contradict each other, so something must be wrong. Hopefully, someone can fix this. (Stefan2 (talk) 13:48, 24 August 2011 (UTC))

The reason it contradicts those articles is that this article is wrong - see my comments in the section above. The article didn't say that Gadaffi was no longer leader, but this has been reverted back repeatedly by User:Sundostund. However, I don't want to get involved in more reverts; I have asked for further comments. --Pretty Green (talk) 13:56, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

sheesh, this is an ongoing development, just slap {{current}} on the page if you must, but don't make such a fuss about "contradictions". --dab (𒁳) 11:05, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I personally don't care who's the correct leader or on what date the leaders stopped being leaders, but if several pages list differing information, the pages are by definition contradicting each other. There needs to be some kind of consensus so that all pages can present identical information. (Stefan2 (talk) 22:49, 28 August 2011 (UTC))

Gaddafi is still the head of state, there is no sources saying he isn't any longer. It should stay as such until it can be properly cited that he is no longer head of state. It is a very fluid and difficult sitution, but wiki is meant to be about facts.--Welshsocialist (talk) 12:08, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Gaddafi is not the head of state, Jalil is. (92.7.1.108 (talk) 21:03, 25 August 2011 (UTC))

I heard nothing about Mr. al-Zwai. Did anybody heard something about his whereabout? --84.155.210.188 (talk) 15:19, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The African Union still recongise Gaddafi as Head of State, as do most African nations. I am not sure that it is an encylopedic fact that Gaddafi is no longer head of state just yet.--Welshsocialist (talk) 13:32, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The African Union is a worthless, racist institution. Most African countries now recognise the NTC. Gaddafi is leader of nothing. By the way, I'm so glad Nye Bevan died of cancer. (92.7.10.93 (talk) 16:17, 26 August 2011 (UTC))

Who cares about what Khaddafi is leading? This discussion is about his title, not his power. Anyway, I just read in a Swedish newspaper that the rebels are planning to try to capture Sirte, suggesting that Khaddafi still possesses executive powers of a part of the country. (Stefan2 (talk) 14:25, 29 August 2011 (UTC))

Article split

I propose splitting this article into the following; King of Libya and List of heads of state of Libya, since they are technically two separate offices, ie one monarchical, and the other political. TRAJAN 117 (talk) 11:29, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

But a king is a head of state... In many countries (e.g. republics headed by a president or absolute monarchies), the head of state is a politician, sometimes in addition to being a king. (Stefan2 (talk) 14:28, 29 August 2011 (UTC))

I just thought maybe we could have a separate page that's just about the Libyan monarchy. TRAJAN 117 (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

huh? We do. It's called kingdom of Libya. Also, there only ever was a single king of Libya, Idris of Libya. Creating a kind of "list of kings of Libya" with just a single entry seems rather pointless to say the least. --dab (𒁳) 08:22, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm very well aware that there was only one king of Libya. But when i say "a separate page that's just about the Libyan monarchy", i mean the institution, not the state. But just simply call the article King of Libya. TRAJAN 117 (talk) 10:51, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

File:Mustafa Abdul Jalil.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Mustafa Abdul Jalil.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 12:21, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

File:Seal of the National Transitional Council (Libya).svg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Seal of the National Transitional Council (Libya).svg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests October 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 13:43, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

File:Abdel-jalil+mug+copy.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Abdel-jalil+mug+copy.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests December 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 02:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Mustapha Abdul-Jalil.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Mustapha Abdul-Jalil.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations What should I do? Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Commons Undeletion Request This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 03:26, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Position of secretary-general

I came across a copy of the Declaration on the Establishment of the Authority of the People, which can be found here [7]. In it, it states that "the General People's Congress chooses a chairman to preside over its sessions, to sign laws by order of the Congress, and to accept the credentials of foreign representatives of forgein countries", that would make the CHAIRMAN not the Secretary-General the head of state similiar to the Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme People's Assembly of Noth Korea. Will someone clear this up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.249.196.179 (talk) 01:50, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

I was looking over the same copy of the declaration and it appears the Secretary-General of the General People's Congress was the head of government with the General Secretariat of the Congress being the executive cabinet of Libya. I think think this needs to be discussed 166.249.197.22 (talk) 00:10, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Salim

Removed Mohammad Ali Salim from the list. He was just the oldest guy used to preside over the first session of the Congress for electing a speaker, like the Clerk of the House. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scottbp (talk • contribs) 23:40, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

And in that position he was the acting Head of State. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 15:45, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, Hebel. --Sundostund (talk) 19:03, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Aguila Saleh Issa

Aguila Saleh Issa Is not a "head of state". he is a president of parliament only. 3bdulelah (talk) 21:05, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Being the current head of parliament, Issa is also the current head of state of Libya, in the same way as Nouri Abusahmain was before him. It is assumed that the head of parliament will continue to act as the head of state until the new constitution is ratified, and general election are held. Then the President will be elected (either by direct or indirect election). --Sundostund (talk) 23:11, 26 August 2014 (UTC)